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PACali

New DMSc program in Oregon

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1 hour ago, PACali said:

https://www.georgefox.edu/pa/index.html

New DMSc program in Oregon. It looks like an entry level program. The time has come folks. I think this is the right thing for the profession. We have to get on the train like everyone else.

Sure. And who will foot the bill for any "bridge" program, and pay me for the months (years?) ill have to take off work to write a doctorate, or whatever their equivalent is?

I think we should do everything in our power to fight this kind of nonsense...because once it's remotely standard, or even expected, we're all screwed. it's bad, bad, news.   Diploma bloat is already screwing thousands of professionals.  We are not doctors, and the minute we start playing wanna-be, we devalue our profession and ourselves.  The minute this starts, employers will all demand we all go back to school, just like happened to every nurse I know who was a working, AS-N diplomate with years of experience, who then had to then scrounge, first for a bachelors, then a masters degree, in their "spare time" because their institutions succumbed to diploma bloat fantasies.  

The PAEA/NCCPA/ARC-PA/AAPA needs to refuse to accredit any such program.  There is no good in this.

Sorry for the strong response, nothing personal, but I feel very strongly about this...

Edited by quietmedic
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Sure. And who will foot the bill for any "bridge" program, and pay me for the months (years?) ill have to take off work to write a doctorate, or whatever their equivalent is?

I think we should do everything in our power to fight this kind of nonsense...because once it's remotely standard, or even expected, we're all screwed. it's bad, bad, news.   Diploma bloat is already screwing thousands of professionals.  We are not doctors, and the minute we start playing wanna-be, we devalue our profession and ourselves.  The minute this starts, employers will all demand we all go back to school, just like happened to every nurse I know who was a working, AS-N diplomate with years of experience, who then had to then scrounge, first for a bachelors, then a masters degree, in their "spare time" because their institutions succumbed to diploma bloat fantasies.  

The PAEA/NCCPA/ARC-PA/AAPA needs to refuse to accredit any such program.  There is no good in this.

Sorry for the strong response, nothing personal, but I feel very strongly about this...

This is not a bridge program. Looks like a PA program awarding DMSc. I could be wrong.

 

Now, as much as I hate degree creep or Diploma Bloat as you put it, it is unfortunately here.

 

Much like the move the NPs made a decade or so ago to move towards independence and Doctorate degrees, it gave them a much louder voice and presence to our profession's detriment.

 

We stuck by our virtues (physician kumbayaism and no move towards higher degrees and keeping "assistant" in our title) and played nice until it caught up with us. That obviously was a terrible plan.

 

So now you are arguing that we should just sit by and watch everyone else (audiology, PT, NP, et al. But mostly NP) pass us by.

 

If you don't want a doctorate then don't get one. But don't, in my opinion, hold back the profession by preaching that this should be blocked. Again I don't agree with degree creep from a philosophical standpoint but from a practical one it is here and if we ever want parity with our NP colleagues (or hope to show we are valuable and relevant in the discussion of Healthcare) then this is the future.

 

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, quietmedic said:

Sure. And who will foot the bill for any "bridge" program, and pay me for the months (years?) ill have to take off work to write a doctorate, or whatever their equivalent is?

I think we should do everything in our power to fight this kind of nonsense...because once it's remotely standard, or even expected, we're all screwed. it's bad, bad, news.   Diploma bloat is already screwing thousands of professionals.  We are not doctors, and the minute we start playing wanna-be, we devalue our profession and ourselves.  The minute this starts, employers will all demand we all go back to school, just like happened to every nurse I know who was a working, AS-N diplomate with years of experience, who then had to then scrounge, first for a bachelors, then a masters degree, in their "spare time" because their institutions succumbed to diploma bloat fantasies.  

The PAEA/NCCPA/ARC-PA/AAPA needs to refuse to accredit any such program.  There is no good in this.

Sorry for the strong response, nothing personal, but I feel very strongly about this...

Possibly you should stick by your online name and be "Quiet".  Even SLP's are looking into doctorates, I think they are the last of the MS level medical type professionals....Oh yea except for PA who better get act together. Look around, there are so many MS to DNP on line programs.  Are you really someone who cares about the future of those who went to PA programs and still have many years ahead.  Just like other doctorates, they will be phased in. Non doctorate PT, OT, Audiologists haven't lost jobs and do still get them.  But many went on to get doctorate, it's called life.  Things change in life.  Options will pop up for those who want to get doctorate.  You must be of the mindset of an ostrich, put your head in the ground and the world around will go away.  IT will not! It is not! 

There may be better options, but sticking with MS Physician Assistant is not it!

BTW, this is posted following a nice shot of whisky! Actually a couple!

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30 minutes ago, VeryOldPA said:

The website says that the degree is in “PA Medicine”. What is P.A. Medicine?  

A better title than physician assistant studies...

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The director is a close personal friend of mine and work colleague for 18 years. he has started several previous PA programs and has significant experience teaching at the doctoral level. This program will rock. I will probably teach some classes there as a guest lecturer.

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I just don't get it though.  There are already 3 year medical schools.  Just do that.  Or add 1 more year and become a physician with greatly increased earning power, respect, etc.

But it looks like it's 28 months?  So not really any longer than your typical PA program.

Most of my NP colleagues do not support the DNP.  I do not support it.  The academic, bourgeoisie NPs are trying to force it upon us working-class, proletariat NPs.  Note, however, how they keep pushing the roll out date back year after year.

We should take PTs, pharmacists, etc as an example.  Their salaries did not increase.  Their scope of practice did not increase.  They have more debt, but for what?

Edited by Kaepora
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~$120,000 for the program? No thank you. I feel bad for the future of this profession if we continue to open schools that contribute to the student debt of the country. 

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This program is no longer than a typical PA program. It is just (finally) awarding us an appropriate degree for > 100 credits of work after a bs degree. This is a private school, so yes, the tuition is spendy. Consider many folks today will likely do an MMSc and a DMSc for a total of around the same amount, so this just has you pay and play up front, just like a PA/MPH program costs more than PA alone. Think of this as a dual degree program if it helps you sleep better at night.

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Honestly, I knew this would be happening sooner or later (and I was betting on sooner).  I understand there are strong feelings on both sides of the fence, but I don't think it is anything that can be stopped. 

Regardless of your thoughts on degree inflation, doctorates add legitimacy in the eyes of the public and in the eyes of legislators, which is why so many health professions have been moving that way over the last couple decades. Pharmacy, Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy, Audiology, Nurse Practitioners, etc have all made this transition to the doctorate as their standard in the last 20 years or so. 

There have been arguments for years that the current PA master's degrees already require enough credits to qualify for a doctorate; my program clocks in at 120 credits (which is average), and this is well over what is required for the DPT, DNP, DrPH, etc at my school. As far as it being the same length of time as medical school, it's 3 academic years (by number of semesters), not 3 calendar years; plus it still doesn't require a residency, so the pathway is still much shorter.

The tuition is high, but unfortunately not any higher than many of the current master's programs, and those students won't have to worry about going back and getting a DMSc later like many current PA students across the country will likely end up doing. 

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1 hour ago, Hope2PA said:

Possibly you should stick by your online name and be "Quiet". 

No, he shouldn't.  He should be EXACTLY as loud as he wants to be.  I may disagree with him, but I damn well support his right to voice his opinion here.  If it upsets some fragile little ego's, then let those fragile little ego's go back to their mother's basement or their universities safe spaces.

 

1 hour ago, Hope2PA said:

Non doctorate PT, OT, Audiologists haven't lost jobs and do still get them.

Makes it kinda stupid to spend the extra $30-$80K to get a doctorate then, doesn't it?

 

 

25 minutes ago, JDayBFL said:

~$120,000 for the program? No thank you. I feel bad for the future of this profession if we continue to open schools that contribute to the student debt of the country. 

The only people, and I mean the ONLY people, who benefit from degree creep is universities (or as Kaepora calls them, the academic bourgeois).

I am against degree creep.  There are (were?) PAs with certificates who practice better medicine than I do with two masters.  

However, if we are going to do it (and we ARE going to do it), hopefully we will follow along with what this program is doing and simply awarding a doctorate for what we are already doing.

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HI all,

I am the one who is behind the GFU doctorate and there is good reason for correcting this issue.  First, you need to understand that academic awards are based on regional accreditation.  Here is what the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities states:  

Degree Levels Associate

A lower division undergraduate degree normally representing two years (approximately 60 semester credits or 90 quarter units) of lower‐division collegiate study, or its equivalent in depth and quality of learning experience.

Baccalaureate

An undergraduate degree normally representing four years (approximately 120 semester credits or 180 quarter credits) of upper‐ and lower‐division collegiate study, or its equivalent in depth and quality of learning experience.

Masters

A graduate degree representing approximately 30 semester credits or 45 quarter credits of post‐baccalaureate study, or its equivalent in depth and quality.

Doctorate

A terminal degree representing three or more years [90 SH] of graduate study that prepares the recipient to conduct original research, engage in scholarship, create artistic expressions of human emotions, or apply knowledge to practice.

--

The type of degree awarded has nothing to do with the practice as a PA.  That is governed by the state medical board and legislation.   It does have everything to do with standards of regional accreditation.  It is not degree creep, it doesn't change what needs to be done.  It is simply applying the standards of regional accreditation and academic aptitude.   

oh, and the degree is a doctor of medical science.  Not PA Medicine.  And the tuition cost is similar to all regional costs (extrapolated out to 2021); the program has no fees.  And finally, I was a "certified PA."  

Please don't get caught up in the falsehood of degree creep or thinking the university makes more doing this.  Neither are true.  The cost is the same.  In fact, it is easier for me to build a Master's degree.  But, I am an academic and I intend to pursue a program that meets regional accreditation standards as listed above.   

Hope this helps.

Greg

Edited by G. Davenport
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This is a coming thing and cannot be stopped. I suspect most PA programs with a very minor tweak can be made doctoral programs muc h like my BS was well qualified to be a masters program. 

We-r-borg-you-will-comply-resistance-is-futile.jpg

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Yup. My program went from BS to MS by adding one course in research methodology. This is not really about adding more coursework, but as Dr Davenport stated, awarding the degree we have already earned. This is where the profession is headed. I remember when we had this same conversation 20 years ago about the BS to MS conversion. It is going to happen. Some folks will retire with their current degree. Those with 10 + years to practice will likely consider a postgrad DMSc/DHSc/etc. Folks starting the process today should really look at the long view and plan for doctorate, residency, and CAQ. Yes, there are 3 year med schools. A good option for some, but still requiring extra coursework, the MCAT, etc.

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6 hours ago, G. Davenport said:

HI all,

I am the one who is behind the GFU doctorate and there is good reason for correcting this issue.  First, you need to understand that academic awards are based on regional accreditation.  Here is what the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities states:  

Degree Levels Associate

A lower division undergraduate degree normally representing two years (approximately 60 semester credits or 90 quarter units) of lower‐division collegiate study, or its equivalent in depth and quality of learning experience.

Baccalaureate

An undergraduate degree normally representing four years (approximately 120 semester credits or 180 quarter credits) of upper‐ and lower‐division collegiate study, or its equivalent in depth and quality of learning experience.

Masters

A graduate degree representing approximately 30 semester credits or 45 quarter credits of post‐baccalaureate study, or its equivalent in depth and quality.

Doctorate

A terminal degree representing three or more years [90 SH] of graduate study that prepares the recipient to conduct original research, engage in scholarship, create artistic expressions of human emotions, or apply knowledge to practice.

--

The type of degree awarded has nothing to do with the practice as a PA.  That is governed by the state medical board and legislation.   It does have everything to do with standards of regional accreditation.  It is not degree cheap, it doesn't change what needs to be done.  It is simply applying the standards of regional accreditation and academic aptitude.   

oh, and the degree is a doctor of medical science.  Not PA Medicine.  And the tuition cost is similar to all regional costs (extrapolated out to 2021); the program has no fees.  And finally, I was a "certified PA."  

Please don't get caught up in the falsehood of degree creep or thinking the university makes more doing this.  Neither are true.  The cost is the same.  In fact, it is easier for me to build a Master's degree.  But, I am an academic and I intend to pursue a program that meets regional accreditation standards as listed above.   

Hope this helps.

Greg

So did no other program in the state also qualify for this before this program?

Edited by PAsPreMed
wording

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A few points....

 

degree creep is FAR BIGGER then US - we can adapt to it or get left behind.... period...

for those of you not newly out of school - $100k is what PA schools cost now....  so it is normal there

For those that say "just go to med school"   --  we don't want to be doc's - but PA's.  Med school is 3+3(min more likely a total of 7-8 years)  against a just under 3 year program.  That is a big difference....

 

 

 

As for political realm.... do you think all the move towards OTP would have happened if everyone really understood what PA's actually do?  Heck no = but politics is marketing, perception and fighting for your turf - for the life blood of the profession we need to more to this-we have new grad DNP with out a clue calling themselves doctors, we have PT''s and audiologists calling themselves doctors, we have chiro's calling themselves doctors, we have ND calling themselves doctors..... and last time I checked the ALL had less schooling then us!!  Names, Degrees and perceptions matter...

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2 hours ago, PAsPreMed said:

So did no other program in the state also qualify for this before this program?

no other program applied for a doctorate...in the entire country.....that is what being a trail blazer is all about...kind of like LECOM APAP 10 years ago...

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15 hours ago, G. Davenport said:

I am the one who is behind the GFU doctorate

Thanks for taking the time to engage with a passionate yet, well, unfiltered forum.

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What hood do I wear?  When lining up in academic regalia, that is.  I've got my MS hood, which is green for medicine, and I've got my M.Div. hood, which is red and a skosh longer.  Why?  At ~80 semester hours, it's a THREE YEAR master's degree, as opposed to my 126 semester hour MS, which is just a two year degree.  When I finish my Th.M. next year, a 25 semester hour "first academic" degree beyond the M.Div. (think LL.M. to JD) it will be a "fourth year" Masters hood, and will DEFINITELY outrank my MS hood, 4 years to 2, even though the combined 105 graduate semester hours still don't come close to 126.

Even in the arcane rules of academia, we've been selling ourselves short by essentially calling a professional doctorate a masters' degree.  Why?  Because 1) Medicine is hard and that's how much time it takes to be remotely safe doing it, and 2) We've always viewed the MD as the pinnacle of medical education, a place I believe it still deserves.

Am I looking forward to spending another $20k for a PA doctorate program?  Not really; the thing I like about my Th.M. program is that, within certain constraints, I get to study what I want. Looking at Lynchburg and similar programs, I fear I will not have anywhere near that flexibility.

 

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It's stuff like this that makes me very glad I am on the tail end of this career.  I already had to go back and "upgrade" my BS to an MPAS.  It was expensive and stupid, yet to apply for any job I had to have it.  STUPID.  Now the ...wait for it........"Doctorate of Physician Assistant"!  Can anyone really say that without laughing?  

"So I see here you have a doctorate.."   

"Why yes, I am a doctor of Physician Assisting....Err Assistant......Err....."

or

 

"Medical Practitioner doctorate".....hmmm.  Which one sounds better to you?

 

 

Change our name!

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27 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

The degree will be doctor of medical science (DMSc), not DPAS. 

The same thing is being bandied about on Reddit/r/medicine (there is a huge post there for anyone that wants to drive a screwdriver in to their own skull reading it). Makes me crazy, along with all of the other silly assumptions about the program. I am blown away by how many PAs "don't want it" for what sounds like nothing beyond not wanting to confuse patients, as if we aren't the LAST group of non-physician professionals joining the club. I don't think any of us are out to confusion anyone and if we are going to be expected to have a doctorate in 10 years and we've all done/are doing the expected work for a doctorate anyhow, I think it is an obvious step in the right direction for all of those entering the field today. 

Edited by printer2100
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2 minutes ago, printer2100 said:

I am blown away by how many PAs "don't want it" for what sounds like nothing beyond not wanting to confuse patients, as if we aren't the LAST group of non-physician professionals joining the club. 

1.)  VERY expensive

2.)  Will not improve care or clinical outcomes

3.)  The degree (doctorate) is not supported by our professions name.  Assistant.

 

Change our name.  Create an inexpensive bridge for those with BS's and MPAS and we can talk.  Until then, color me unimpressed.  

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