iconic Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Looking at the text of the bill that establishes:(1) A physician assistant specializing in psychiatric mental health under this section 307 shall:308 (a) hold a valid license as a physician assistant under this chapter;309 (b) obtain and maintain a Certification of Added Qualification in psychiatry issued by310 the National Commission on Certification of Physician Assistants;311 (c) complete:312 (i) an accredited doctorate level academic program for physician assistants approved by313 the division in collaboration with the board; or314 (ii) a post-graduate residency in psychiatry and additional clinical practice or315 coursework in accordance with requirements approved by the division in collaboration with the316 board; and317 (d) complete the clinical practice requirement established by the division in318 collaboration with the board.319 (2) The division, in collaboration with the board, may approve a program under320 Subsection (1)(c)(i), if the program:321 (a) is a regionally accredited doctoral level academic program;322 (b) includes at least 1,600 didactic hours of instruction that results in a doctorate of323 medical science degree or equivalent; and324 (c) provides graduate level instruction in:325 (i) neuroscience;326 (ii) health care law and ethics;327 (iii) health care delivery;328 (iv) evidence-based medicine;329 (v) evidence-based research;330 (vi) academic writing and publication;331 (vii) psychiatric assessment;332 (viii) crisis intervention;333 (ix) a comprehensive review of mental disorders So it's great that Utah is making some legislative moves, however these additional requirements are completely ridiculous. Requiring that PAs meet all these additional requirements after graduating from PA school is admitting that our education is not equivalent to NPs. Also, how many PA residency programs are out there as well as DMS programs that meet the above criteria? Also, what is the point of having separate requirements for Psych PAs. This is not a good bill and certainly not a good precedent to set for other states Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Who is sponsoring and lobbying for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeryOldPA Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Awful. If this passes as is described it will kill the job market for PAs. Especially new grads. I agree it sends the wrong message about master’s degree programs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 50 minutes ago, MediMike said: Who is sponsoring and lobbying for this? By the look of it? Probably nurse practitioners. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted January 29, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2021 what??? so a psych NP can have about 500 clinical hours TOTAL We have to have 2200!!! We rotate through all different services, NP - well they do pretty limited - and the whole body is the whole body..... can't just separate psych from everything else.... You need to involve AAPA and PAFT as this is clearly written by someone that has 1) no idea of our education or 2) is siding with NP's Neither one of which is a good thing We don't need to ask for the moon, we just need to be treated honestly and our education respected. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) To be certain UAPA are the ones pushing for this bill: https://utahapa.mypanetwork.com/page/696-utah-s-b-28-physician-assistant-mental-health-practice-amendments And it gets much worse than this as their original proposal was for PAs to complete either 10,000 hours of post-PA practice or 4,000 hours plus DMS/residency. Looks like the PAs pushing for this have significant stake at one of the DMS programs in Utah. I mean, who needs NP and MD opposition when we have PAs trying to undermine our own profession Edited January 29, 2021 by iconic 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 What the hell is wrong with them? If they succeed in this they will be holding up a new "standard" that other states will think they need to meet. I have no desire to obtain a fluff DMsc to enable me to practice. Does the remainder of the text in this bill allow complete and utter independent practice with fill reimbursement? If not then it's a terrible idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyJ Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Just awful! As some say....PAs are our own worst enemies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkertdm Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 22 minutes ago, MediMike said: What the hell is wrong with them? If they succeed in this they will be holding up a new "standard" that other states will think they need to meet. I have no desire to obtain a fluff DMsc to enable me to practice. Does the remainder of the text in this bill allow complete and utter independent practice with fill reimbursement? If not then it's a terrible idea. I read through it, and it doesn't look like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted January 29, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2021 AAPA needs to be advised of this so they can come out against it..... NCCPA as well if the two national agencies come out against, and maybe even PAFT then it should die a quick death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAinPenna Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/3/2/22310517/2021-legislature-passes-bill-to-expand-scope-of-physician-assistants-independent-practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilso2ar Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 It appears that the first part that passed is a good thing. Independence after 10,000 hours of supervised work. I'm not so sure that I agree with the mental health bill, but maybe this is an improvement in the current situation in Utah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACali Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 Weird, I don't see the same text from webpage. https://le.utah.gov/~2021/bills/static/SB0027.html 307 Section 9. Section 58-70a-503 is amended to read:308 58-70a-503. Unprofessional conduct.309 (1) "Unprofessional conduct" includes:310 (a) violation of a patient confidence to any person who does not have a legal right and a311 professional need to know the information concerning the patient;312 (b) knowingly prescribing, selling, giving away, or directly or indirectly administering,313 or offering to prescribe, sell, furnish, give away, or administer any prescription drug except for314 a legitimate medical purpose upon a proper diagnosis indicating use of that drug in the amounts315 prescribed or provided;316 (c) prescribing prescription drugs for oneself or administering prescription drugs to317 oneself, except those that have been legally prescribed for the physician assistant by a licensed318 practitioner and that are used in accordance with the prescription order for the condition319 diagnosed;320 [(d) failure to maintain at the practice site a delegation of services agreement that321 accurately reflects current practices;]322 [(e) failure to make the delegation of services agreement available to the division for323 review upon request;]324 [(f)] (d) in a practice that has physician assistant ownership interests, failure to allow325 [the supervising] a physician the independent final decision making authority on [patient]326 treatment decisions[, as set forth in the delegation of services agreement or as defined by rule]327 for the physician's patient;328 [(g)] (e) violating the dispensing requirements of Chapter 17b, Part 8, Dispensing329 Medical Practitioner and Dispensing Medical Practitioner Clinic Pharmacy, if applicable; [or]330 and331 [(h)] (f) falsely making an entry in, or altering, a medical record with the intent to332 conceal:333 (i) a wrongful or negligent act or omission of an individual licensed under this chapter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 (edited) On 3/4/2021 at 12:22 AM, PACali said: Weird, I don't see the same text from webpage. https://le.utah.gov/~2021/bills/static/SB0027.html 307 Section 9. Section 58-70a-503 is amended to read:308 58-70a-503. Unprofessional conduct.309 (1) "Unprofessional conduct" includes:310 (a) violation of a patient confidence to any person who does not have a legal right and a311 professional need to know the information concerning the patient;312 (b) knowingly prescribing, selling, giving away, or directly or indirectly administering,313 or offering to prescribe, sell, furnish, give away, or administer any prescription drug except for314 a legitimate medical purpose upon a proper diagnosis indicating use of that drug in the amounts315 prescribed or provided;316 (c) prescribing prescription drugs for oneself or administering prescription drugs to317 oneself, except those that have been legally prescribed for the physician assistant by a licensed318 practitioner and that are used in accordance with the prescription order for the condition319 diagnosed;320 [(d) failure to maintain at the practice site a delegation of services agreement that321 accurately reflects current practices;]322 [(e) failure to make the delegation of services agreement available to the division for323 review upon request;]324 [(f)] (d) in a practice that has physician assistant ownership interests, failure to allow325 [the supervising] a physician the independent final decision making authority on [patient]326 treatment decisions[, as set forth in the delegation of services agreement or as defined by rule]327 for the physician's patient;328 [(g)] (e) violating the dispensing requirements of Chapter 17b, Part 8, Dispensing329 Medical Practitioner and Dispensing Medical Practitioner Clinic Pharmacy, if applicable; [or]330 and331 [(h)] (f) falsely making an entry in, or altering, a medical record with the intent to332 conceal:333 (i) a wrongful or negligent act or omission of an individual licensed under this chapter Yea you are looking at SB 27; mental health is SB 28. Both bills do nothing to help new grads. NPs in Utah can practice independently right after graduating from NP school. I guess we need 5 years to catch up to their level. Not only that, but it only applies to one specialty. So if you’ve been a primary care PA for 5 years and you apply for a specialty job, you will still need to be supervised for 4000 hours, meanwhile they can hire a new grad NP who does not need supervision. Both bills are hot garbage and terrible precedent. Edited March 7, 2021 by iconic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cideous Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 10 hours ago, iconic said: Yea you are looking at SB 27; mental health is SB 28. Both bills do nothing to help new grads. NPs in Utah can practice independently right after graduating from NP school. I guess we need 5 years to catch up to their level. Not only that, but it only applies to one specialty. So if you’ve been a primary care PA for 5 years and you apply for a specialty job, you will still need to be supervised for 4000 hours, meanwhile they can hire a new grad NP who does not need supervision. Both bills are hot garbage and terrible precedent. "Assistants".... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted March 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted March 8, 2021 heard this passed in some form??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) And both garbage bills have been signed into law meanwhile NPs got FPA. PAs can now practice independently after 10,000 hours of experience as well as at least 4,000 hours of specialty-specific experience. The mental health bill is so convoluted, I am going to assume is going to affect a handful of people in total, who clearly have a stake at Rocky Mountain DMSc program. Whoever sponsored the bill must have forgotten that it's not so much about independence, but removing barriers to hiring PAs. If I was an employer looking to hire an APP, why would I want to deal with the convoluted process of getting a PA? Maybe it's not too late to become an NP Edited March 17, 2021 by iconic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cideous Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 LOL, I love this. And yet, "we are just fine" according to the old guard of PA's. They are laying waste to this profession for the new PA's...know it....and don't give a damn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 6 hours ago, Cideous said: LOL, I love this. And yet, "we are just fine" according to the old guard of PA's. They are laying waste to this profession for the new PA's...know it....and don't give a damn. I don't know its so much that they don't give a damn as its "this has worked for 40 years so why change it." or my favorite "I got mine and its working so don't tamper with it." A recent Huddle conversation started by an old school PA who wants to stop the title change process until we can have a live HOD meeting rather than virtual because we can't make such a big decision without a live meeting and also wants to start a round of data gathering and voting among PAs that would take years. It boggles my mind. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltawave Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Utah just passed full OTP/autonomous practice. No SP required. Also, direct billing by PAs. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, deltawave said: Utah just passed full OTP/autonomous practice. No SP required. Also, direct billing by PAs. Do people read these bills? You need 10,000 hours for independent practice and 4000 of these have to be in the same specialty. So lets say you are a GI PA who is out of work, well you can't just get a job in any specialty without supervision. But guess what, they can hire a new grad NP to work without supervision for perceived less liability. NPs in Utah had full FPA passed right before these 2 bills got passed. Think of the optics - so NPs are so well educated they don't require any post-grad supervision, while PAs need 10,000 hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cideous Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Congrats? lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltawave Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 It’s better than nothing at all. This is how it works when you are not only behind the 8 ball but behind by 5 games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 15 minutes ago, deltawave said: It’s better than nothing at all. This is how it works when you are not only behind the 8 ball but behind by 5 games. This.... it is great when we can make a sweeping change but these things are more typically accomplished incrementally and slowly. Next legislative session they can say "see the world didn't end and nobody died" and move on from there. Here in Texas everything used to get approved for underserved areas only and then later for everyone. It was like the country folk were expendable guinea pigs. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) Watch the other states adopt this terrible precedent, which btw was still opposed by Utah Medical Association. I am not entirely sure who we are even trying to tiptoe around. Also, I am not aware of nurses starting their legislative push anywhere with 10,000 hours of supervised practice as a requirement. Our profession is loosing ground FAST; if we don't turn it around soon enough, we will become second rate providers which we already are in many places. The idea of independent practice isn't for PAs to go and open specialty clinics on their own - it is to compete with NPs for jobs; I fail to see how this bill advances that goal Edited March 19, 2021 by iconic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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