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New DMSc program in Oregon

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Maybe we are seeing two sides of the same coin. I am happy to pay what I am reading (above) as the same amount, to do the same course work, and be awarded a doctorate degree. I couldn't care less if the term assistant happens to be associated with a doctorate degree. I would still be a PA, but I am now on course to be paid fairly by the government, can be treated equally in academia, can likely provide more political persuasion to advance our profession, and the list goes on. It isn't a clinical advancement, but when I have to effectively do little to nothing more to have the other benefits, I am on board. I am happy to change our title, but to use that as an argument to not award the appropriate degree is just not convincing me otherwise.  

Edited by printer2100
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7 minutes ago, Cideous said:

1.)  VERY expensive

2.)  Will not improve care or clinical outcomes

3.)  The degree (doctorate) is not supported by our professions name.  Assistant.

 

Change our name.  Create an inexpensive bridge for those with BS's and MPAS and we can talk.  Until then, color me unimpressed.  

all true. I am hoping we get momentum on name/title change this year. The one thing having a doctorate does is sets us on a more even playing field with DNPs. People ARE losing jobs because some HR person who does the hiring assumes DNP>MPAS. The other issue (obviously) is the burden of "supervision". We are working on that too. 

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1 hour ago, EMEDPA said:

all true. I am hoping we get momentum on name/title change this year. The one thing having a doctorate does is sets us on a more even playing field with DNPs. People ARE losing jobs because some HR person who does the hiring assumes DNP>MPAS. The other issue (obviously) is the burden of "supervision". We are working on that too. 

Attempted to make that point on reddit. However, no one wanted to listen to the public perception argument for the progression. 

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I'm always very surprised to see "old-school" PA's champion against increasing the prestige and applicability of the PA degree (whether it be a DMSc or a MPAS or whatever). Then I remember that these are the same people that stood by passively and watched NPs push into the stratosphere legislatively while comforting themselves that "we are better providers" and "our training is actually in medicine". Spend 10 minutes on the forum or looking at jobs and you'll realize that we F'd up by tying the profession to physician groups that no longer have the hiring power they did when private practice was the norm. 

I get the arguments against the DMSc just like I understand the sentiment against mandatory fellowship training. But the fact is that unless we alter our trajectory we will have been replaced by NPs in 20 years. Easier to hire, easier to train, easier to "supervise", etc etc etc. Oh, and as far as the PT argument goes, PT changed to a doctorate in part to be able to get reimbursement from insurance for direct visits (i.e. no referral needed). This HAS happened is many places and has contributed to a significant growth in their profession, especially in outpatient settings.  

Lastly, the "just go to med school" comments are ridiculous considering that med school comes with a mandatory residency which effectively triples or quadruples your time in training vs PA school. Not even a close comparison. 

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25 minutes ago, boli said:

 ...But the fact is that unless we alter our trajectory we will have been replaced by NPs in 20 years.....

It will be FAR less than that my friend.  5-7 years MAX.  

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So if someone who has an MD is a patient's doctor and someone who has a DNP is a patient's nurse practitioner, does that make someone with a DMS a patient's medical scientist? 🤔

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15 minutes ago, karebear12892 said:

So if someone who has an MD is a patient's doctor and someone who has a DNP is a patient's nurse practitioner, does that make someone with a DMS a patient's medical scientist? 🤔

Hopefully it makes them their Medical Practitioner. 

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1 hour ago, boli said:

Lastly, the "just go to med school" comments are ridiculous considering that med school comes with a mandatory residency which effectively triples or quadruples your time in training vs PA school. Not even a close comparison. 

Well....except for considering it is the mandatory residency, with the triple or quadruple amount of training, that is the gold standard preparation for one to practice medicine independently.

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20 minutes ago, LKPAC said:

I do hope this doctorate program will be discussing the value of essential oils!

nope, it's not a DNP program(ducks for cover). 

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50 minutes ago, LKPAC said:

I do hope this doctorate program will be discussing the value of essential oils!

Or even a rotation in essential oil medicine 

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22 minutes ago, PAsPreMed said:

Or even a rotation in essential oil medicine 

I have been wondering what EOMs intact means. apparently , it means you have not broken any of your bottles of essential oils...:)

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On 12/17/2018 at 10:13 AM, Kaepora said:

I just don't get it though.  There are already 3 year medical schools.  Just do that.  Or add 1 more year and become a physician with greatly increased earning power, respect, etc.

But it looks like it's 28 months?  So not really any longer than your typical PA program.

Most of my NP colleagues do not support the DNP.  I do not support it.  The academic, bourgeoisie NPs are trying to force it upon us working-class, proletariat NPs.  Note, however, how they keep pushing the roll out date back year after year.

We should take PTs, pharmacists, etc as an example.  Their salaries did not increase.  Their scope of practice did not increase.  They have more debt, but for what?

Let's first disclose the fact that you are an NP. Of course any NP would object to this, which would put PAs on equal footing at the least with NPs. All NP colleagues of mine acknowledges that PAs are far superior than NPs in my hospital, yet they get hired in equal numbers as us because a nursing union mandates that  a certain amount of NPs get hired annually.

DMSc is here to stay and it shall be the new norm 

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Still no answer to the obvious...if that day comes, when our institutions of employ come to us and say, "hey, we need you guys to get your doctorates", who exactly is going to pay me for the hours I will have to spend doing ridiculously dumb online coursework and wasting my time writing theses?  Gosh knows, it's not going to go down like "ok, well give you life credits for your decades of work, here's your doctorate!" And maybe they will make us pay for it too...PAs seem to be the darlings of nobody in the healthcare world, especially all the administrative supervisors who happen to often be RNs.

Good friend of mine had to move from AS-N to BS-N to MS-N. Worked for a big, very well respected institution, but one that only insiders know is run like North Korea. She was told, get your degree or get another job... Didn't matter that she had three kids to raise on their own. Her evening entertainment became irrelevant online coursework for months on end.

I think those here who are apparently gung-ho might not be as such when the reality of what this will mean actually hits... I'm not saying it's not inevitable, I'm saying it might very well not be all fun and games.

Edited by quietmedic
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I do hope this doctorate program will be discussing the value of essential oils!
And Vitamin K2!

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10 minutes ago, Joelseff said:

And ... K2! emoji12.png

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well, we do have some big mountains around here...

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3 hours ago, quietmedic said:

if that day comes, when our institutions of employ come to us and say, "hey, we need you guys to get your doctorates", who exactly is going to pay me for the hours I will have to spend doing ridiculously dumb online coursework and wasting my time writing theses?

How has it worked out for our sub-masters' folks getting masters?

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6 minutes ago, rev ronin said:

How has it worked out for our sub-masters' folks getting masters?

pretty well I think. just like there were bs to ms programs that could be done in a year at low cost(nebraska, etc), there are already low cost ms to dmsc programs. as more of these arrive, I would expect the price to go down a bit. Many employers would allow you to use cme funds for this I would imagine. I used cme to cover my masters from nebraska in 1998. 

You will likely get better jobs/opportunities with a doctorate than without one. The least expensive DMSc is now less than 20k and can be done in less than 2 years. For a bit more money you can do a 1 yr program. 

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Here’s my opinion...

I wish we didn’t need to move the PA education to a Doctorate... but because all the other healthcare professions are doctoral programs (PT,OT,DNP,etc), we are essentially forced to follow suit or be left behind. 

There are both Pros and Cons to this obviously...

I think this would gain respect for PAs from the public/our patients. I also think this will increase political power that the PA profession has. Also improve the way people view us versus DNPs. However, if DMSc/DHSc become the norm, I think a name change should happen... Doctorate of Physician Assistant sounds a bit ridiculous. People will be asking us why we got a doctorate to be an assistant, and even more question why we didn’t just go to med school. I also think that the current PA curriculum will almost be the same as a doctorate, and instead just be rewarding us the appropriate degree for the amount of work/# of credits that we completed. Also if the PA profession moves to a doctorate now, then maybe we will never have to worry about degree inflation again (assuming the Doctorate is the end of this degree creep bologna).

There are cons... like the other professions, increased cost of tuition for the same education essentially... this new program is 120k for just tuition! Ridiculous. Also I’m worried that the QUALITY of programs may decrease if doctorate programs open up and are full of extra fluff like most DNP programs. Again, a Doctorate to be an “Assistant” will sound ridiculous. I was in between for the name change prior, but at this point I think it will be beneficial- “Medical Practitioner with a Doctorate in Medical Sciences” or w/e doesn’t sound bad. Also, patients will be more confused, like is this person the doctor or PA, or the Dr PA??? And, moving the profession to the doctorate will likely have no impact on patient outcomes.

Keep up the conversation.. very interesting discussion. 

Edited by brandonhughey
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1 hour ago, brandonhughey said:
Here’s my opinion...
I wish we didn’t need to move the PA education to a Doctorate... but because all the other healthcare professions are doctoral programs (PT,OT,DNP,etc), we are essentially forced to follow suit or be left behind. 
There are both Pros and Cons to this obviously...
I think this would gain respect for PAs from the public/our patients. I also think this will increase political power that the PA profession has. Also improve the way people view us versus DNPs. However, if DMSc/DHSc become the norm, I think a name change should happen... Doctorate of Physician Assistant sounds a bit ridiculous. People will be asking us why we got a doctorate to be an assistant, and even more question why we didn’t just go to med school. I also think that the current PA curriculum will almost be the same as a doctorate, and instead just be rewarding us the appropriate degree for the amount of work/# of credits that we completed. Also if the PA profession moves to a doctorate now, then maybe we will never have to worry about degree inflation again (assuming the Doctorate is the end of this degree creep bologna).
There are cons... like the other professions, increased cost of tuition for the same education essentially... this new program is 120k for just tuition! Ridiculous. Also I’m worried that the QUALITY of programs may decrease if doctorate programs open up and are full of extra fluff like most DNP programs. Again, a Doctorate to be an “Assistant” will sound ridiculous. I was in between for the name change prior, but at this point I think it will be beneficial- “Medical Practitioner with a Doctorate in Medical Sciences” or w/e doesn’t sound bad. Also, patients will be more confused, like is this person the doctor or PA, or the Dr PA??? And, moving the profession to the doctorate will likely have no impact on patient outcomes.
Keep up the conversation.. very interesting discussion. 

Most PA programs are 100k+ now. My Alma Mater just raised tuition in 2017 because they went masters and it is 3x what I paid almost 10 yrs ago (I paid 45k).

120k for a PA program awarding a Doctorate is actually not bad and on par with most entry PA Masters programs these days.

Now, 120k for a Doctorate finishing program for existing PAs is ludicrous.

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Edited by Joelseff

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20 hours ago, ArmyVetDude said:

Let's first disclose the fact that you are an NP. Of course any NP would object to this, which would put PAs on equal footing at the least with NPs. All NP colleagues of mine acknowledges that PAs are far superior than NPs in my hospital, yet they get hired in equal numbers as us because a nursing union mandates that  a certain amount of NPs get hired annually.

DMSc is here to stay and it shall be the new norm 

First of all, nothing to disclose.  Pretty obvious I'm an NP.  Not trying to hide it.

Second, I don't know why some people always turn this into a d*ck measuring contest.  All PAs are far superior to NPs.  Uh huh, mmmmk.  I'll agree with that for FNPs only.  PMH, CNMs, CRNA, AC, Ped, etc are better trained in their specific specialty focus.  Sorry not sorry.  As an ACNP I got 6 months of IM/Hospitalist, 6 months ICU, 11 months surgery, etc.  There is no PA program that comes close.

And I am vocally against the DNP.  I am against any health care "doctorate" degree.  We are throwing money down the drain.

What hospital do you work at?  I would like a union that guaranteed me a job...

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First of all, nothing to disclose.  Pretty obvious I'm an NP.  Not trying to hide it.
Second, I don't know why some people always turn this into a d*ck measuring contest.  All PAs are far superior to NPs.  Uh huh, mmmmk.  I'll agree with that for FNPs only.  PMH, CNMs, CRNA, AC, Ped, etc are better trained in their specific specialty focus.  Sorry not sorry.  As an ACNP I got 6 months of IM/Hospitalist, 6 months ICU, 11 months surgery, etc.  There is no PA program that comes close.
And I am vocally against the DNP.  I am against any health care "doctorate" degree.  We are throwing money down the drain.
What hospital do you work at?  I would like a union that guaranteed me a job...
Are all ACNP programs like that?

One of my friends who is an RN running a surgical unit is going through ACNP school right now and graduates in March. He did it part time in 2 years while working (and earning very high pay lol) and he is pretty much just shadowing providers in the hospital. One if the providers is a mutual friend who works as an NP iny hospital's cardiac unit so I know what this rotation entails.

He tried to get a rotation with me but his school wouldn't allow it. His inpt rotations and schooling don't sound close to my Primary Care PA program but I'm willing to accept not all ACNP programs are the same.

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51 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

are all those times part time months? because that is 23 months of clinicals not including didactics....

Sounds almost like.. medical school 

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