PC2ED Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 My PA coworkers are trying to get a raise but my boss keeps on bringing the fringe benefits making us understand that we make more per hour than we think. According to his calculations, we make $89/hr (all fringe benefits included). But in our paycheck, we make 29% less. We don't seem to have a way around his argument. I feel like Fringe benefits shouldn't be added to hourly pay and raise conversation because it's a standard thing most employer offer to make themselves competitive in the job market. Beside, it doesn't reflect anywhere in our W2 that we make that much. Can any of you provide some resources on how to counter this crazy man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted October 1, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 1, 2019 “I can’t eat or pay the mortgage using fringe benefits.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randito Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Definitely don’t discount your benefits. I’ve heard many people say that benefits add about 30% to your total compensation, but you have to evaluate each package as if you are comparing a W2 position to a 1099 position. I’ve seen a few online calculators that can help quantify the value of each benefit. FYI, I may be a little biased as I recently took a position with slightly lower than average salary, but the best benefits package I’ve ever seen in my field. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted October 1, 2019 Administrator Share Posted October 1, 2019 The nice thing about fringe benefits is, if done right, they get you money you would have had to spend anyways, but with a lower tax burden on them. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Fringe benefits as in parking and fresh muffins in the lounge? Access to a Keurig 24/7? Or benefits benefits like insurance/AD&D/retirement? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 16 hours ago, PC2ED said: Can any of you provide some resources on how to counter this crazy man? He isn't crazy, you just have to convert the benefit to an annual (or hourly) cost benefit. I get a 6% employer match for my 401K. That's a fringe benefit that will benefit me about $12K this year. They pay for malpractice. That's about $5K/year I get two weeks of PTO. That's $7200/year. (actually more, because of overtime) I get 1 week of CME. That's $3600/year I get $2,000 of CME funds. Right there is almost $30K in fringe benefits. I also get disability insurance which was exorbitantly expensive for me to get on my own (would have cost like $5K/month). Kinda hard to put an accurate number on what that's worth, but its worth a lot to me. I also get a $200K life insurance policy that would probably be worth $600/year. I get vision and dental insurance at a much lower rate through them, probably saving me $1500/year (because Tricare keeps dropping services covered). I don't get my medical insurance through them, but my coworkers do and it is outstanding insurance at very low cost. Very likely another $24,000/year in savings for them (in comparison to buying comparable policy on their own). Could also add in tax savings of usage of an HSA ($1500-$2000 less taxes), flex spending, day care, gym discounts, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted October 1, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 1, 2019 fringe benefits should NOT be included in hourly pay. period Get the AAPA salary report and this year they are supposedly breaking out hourly and salary The best argument is that you would not work there with out the benefits, and no one else is including them. Overall just don't start the discussion. State what you need and stand firm. The more you talk the more wiggle room the boss thinks they have. I would say stand together (all the PA's) and simply state what you are looking for) Would not hurt to get the info from the local hospital as a reference.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightspeed Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said: He isn't crazy, you just have to convert the benefit to an annual (or hourly) cost benefit. I get a 6% employer match for my 401K. That's a fringe benefit that will benefit me about $12K this year. They pay for malpractice. That's about $5K/year I get two weeks of PTO. That's $7200/year. (actually more, because of overtime) I get 1 week of CME. That's $3600/year I get $2,000 of CME funds. Right there is almost $30K in fringe benefits. I also get disability insurance which was exorbitantly expensive for me to get on my own (would have cost like $5K/month). Kinda hard to put an accurate number on what that's worth, but its worth a lot to me. I also get a $200K life insurance policy that would probably be worth $600/year. I get vision and dental insurance at a much lower rate through them, probably saving me $1500/year (because Tricare keeps dropping services covered). I don't get my medical insurance through them, but my coworkers do and it is outstanding insurance at very low cost. Very likely another $24,000/year in savings for them (in comparison to buying comparable policy on their own). Could also add in tax savings of usage of an HSA ($1500-$2000 less taxes), flex spending, day care, gym discounts, etc. That is a good benefits package. I think that in the above example, the fringe benefits there, without health insurance (since that PA uses tri care) come out to a value of around 16% of what his wages are, so roughly $104 an hour if one were to try to add the fringe to his salary. Im a little fuzzy on how the health insurance fits into the puzzle. So when I graduated, I was swimming in job offers, and each one was hard to compare apples to apples, so it helped to reduce things to wages and let any fringe benefits be the added incentive to appeal to employee loyalty. It muddies the water when the boss tries to monetize it like that, and it’s probably that way by design. If he/she wants to compare you to the guy down the street that is working without benefits, but making a bit more, it can be argued that in that kind of situation, the other shop gets the kind of loyalty from that employee that they pay for. Best thing to do is try to set the stage where all parties assume that there is a pretty standard set of benefits a PA can expect in the wild (similar, actually, to boatswains pretty standard set minus the $187,000 in base wage), and encourage your boss to assume that if things don’t match up perfectly across the board (because you are a valued employee and a known entity) the boss won’t feel it worth it to nickle and dime you. Incidentally, all things being equal, I’ve found that PTO is my most valued fringe benefit, and one that is often easier to squeeze from negotiations than almost anything else, especially as an existing employee. There’s nothing like the first time in the case of salary negotiations, and I did let everyone know upfront that as a new employee, I was asking for a lot because I knew how hard it was to get raises in the future. I also emphasized that my loyalty can be bought, and that I could be the kind of NP that can enhance their image rather than being someone that a patient would settle on when they couldn’t see the psychiatrist One place was firm, and I did everyone following behind me a favor by letting them know diplomatically that lack of willingness to negotiate was certainly not consistent with the lay of the land. If all else fails, straight up ask “what are you most willing to negotiate on?”. You’ll no doubt get a few folks saying “well, we feel that this is a generous offer, we’ve kept on top of what other people are doing.” My answer would be that I’m much more earnest in comparing notes with others on that and feel there is room for improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PC2ED Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 thanks for the insights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Let me echo what Boats said. I have to sit myself down and count these every once in a while because it is real money. I have a 4% match on retirement- $6500 240hrs PTO - $18,480 40 hours CME $3080 CME Money $2500 Malpractice- 5k they pay $1000/month of my health insurance dental, vision is free Short term and long term disability is free with an option for me to pay a small amount to upgrade it 3 days bereavement for a loss in the family jury duty paid for as long as the trial lasts there are a pile of other smaller things as well So my benefits are worth somewhere in the 30-40k range. It isn't chump change 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surgblumm Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Send him the AAPA Salary Report ora report from your constituent chapter or specialty society that has a salary scale for PAs in terms of hourly pay plus benefits. If he does not like it, seek new employment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiovolffemtp Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Also, the physicians are getting the same or better fringe benefit package, so that's a wash when comparing your hourly rate with theirs. Ask what percentage of the physician hourly rate you boss feels is appropriate for a PA. I'd ask for 40-45%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcan Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Can you clarify if these are "fringe" benefits like CME, parking, bonus, free food/coffee vs actual benefits like health insurance, retirement, etc. Also, never discount the real value of a good match. Free money in your retirement is worth several times what it is today when you cash it in at retirement. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cideous Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 On 10/7/2019 at 1:52 AM, narcan said: Also, never discount the real value of a good match. Free money in your retirement is worth several times what it is today when you cash it in at retirement. But be careful of the old "vested" switcheroo.... Lots of place promote their 401k match, but don't tell you up front that you need to be there for 5 years to be "fully vested..." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 hours ago, Cideous said: But be careful of the old "vested" switcheroo.... Lots of place promote their 401k match, but don't tell you up front that you need to be there for 5 years to be "fully vested..." I have never worked anywhere that didn't have some kind of time requirement for fully vesting. I am coming up on my 3rd anniversary with my current employer and then I will be fully vested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 7 hours ago, Cideous said: But be careful of the old "vested" switcheroo.... Lots of place promote their 401k match, but don't tell you up front that you need to be there for 5 years to be "fully vested..." 5 years is a Federal mandate, employers can set the bar lower but not higher or vesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted October 9, 2019 Administrator Share Posted October 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, CAdamsPAC said: 5 years is a Federal mandate, employers can set the bar lower but not higher or vesting I seem to recall it used to be higher... seven years, perhaps? But this was a decade or more ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, rev ronin said: I seem to recall it used to be higher... seven years, perhaps? But this was a decade or more ago. Yes it was 7 years ago. The Feds studied job changing and discovered most people changed jobs after around 5 years of employment. Edited October 9, 2019 by CAdamsPAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, CAdamsPAC said: 5 years is a Federal mandate, employers can set the bar lower but not higher or vesting Can you provide a source for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted October 9, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 9, 2019 Back in 2008, I remember having to be vested for 7-8 years at my first nursing job. My residency offered a choice of 2 retirement plans. One with immediately vested and another that was vested at 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I just did a bunch of painful searching and couldn't find a vesting rule regarding timeframes, but it's possible that the IRS just mentally broke me and it's easily searchable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 14 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said: Can you provide a source for this? https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/081815/can-my-company-ever-be-entitled-take-my-401k.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 14 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said: Can you provide a source for this? https://www.investopedia.com/retirement/pension-vesting-everything-you-need-know/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatswain2PA Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 6 hours ago, CAdamsPAC said: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/081815/can-my-company-ever-be-entitled-take-my-401k.asp Says full vesting at six years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PC2ED Posted October 11, 2019 Author Share Posted October 11, 2019 at my shop I was offered two types of funds. In one I was fully vested immediately. The other was after 3 years of full time employment. I made three years last year, so I am vested fully in both with a 6% match. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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