Nah we don't need a Doctorate level degree......

[EMEDPA]

I would like to see programs go to a 36 month model like USC currently does: 18 mo didactic, 18 mo clinical. Alternatively, a 24 month program with a 12 month postgrad internship/residency.

[Cideous]

The problem is....and has always been our name, NOT OUR TRAINING.  We will diminish as a profession until our name is changed.  However, after 25 years I have given up that it ever will...

[JMPAC]

The problem is....and has always been our name, NOT OUR TRAINING.  We will diminish as a profession until our name is changed.  However, after 25 years I have given up that it ever will...

I️ agree! Medical Practitioner! MP (that’s my vote, if we ever get one)

[PACali]

On 11/11/2017 at 11:35 AM, Cideous said:

The problem is....and has always been our name, NOT OUR TRAINING.  We will diminish as a profession until our name is changed.  However, after 25 years I have given up that it ever will...

The name has to change. We can't do OTP with assistant in our name. I agree with Medical Practitioner, It's a stand-alone name and that is what we need. We don't need physician in our name either. 

[Guest HanSolo]

Seems to me that if PAs are required to have doctorates in the future, then the doctorate education needs to include far more beyond clinical education that opens up the door for PAs to have higher level positions and higher earning potential. However, this demand needs to be driven from the inside by clinics, hospitals, etc. and not by academia. 

[ventana]

On 11/10/2017 at 8:01 PM, Reality Check 2 said:

A 99213 and a 99214 will get the same billing return whether the PA has a Masters, Doctorate or papal decree.

 

But not if you are an NP or MD versus PA..... and that is the point....

[Reality Check 2]

Ventana - how would you introduce this?

I, for one, am NOT going back to school after 25 yrs to pay for a Master's AND a doctorate for billing purposes. Am I grandfathered in? What about the PAs who "only" got Associates years ago or, like me, a Bachelors? When is the cutoff?

For me, getting a "higher" level of education is not going to make me a better clinician - just one in more debt for a few letters behind my name. It won't change my experience, my skills or my capacity to function independently. It just shows I am gullible enough to pay for more "school" that isn't school for me.

How many PAs will lose their jobs or be unemployable without a doctorate they can't afford?

Do we start with a certain graduating year? Everyone is SOL or grandfathered?

Great concept - not easily introduced. So far, the majority of us have NCCPA as a standard. Changing educational standards is going to take a decade or more. 

I think change the name first. Then get the Full Practice Authority via a set of qualifications and rules. THEN change the education standard going forward to back all that up.

Just my old crusty 2 cents

 

[Fernwood]

I’m a bit late to the party here but a doctorate of physician assistant studies is really not going to be much more than additional letters in your title. A PhD, MPH or even MBA are degrees are far more utilitarian. I believe one of the best things a PA can do is a good postgraduate residency. I learned so much additional experience and gained significant confidence with the completion of my post graduate residency. During the residency I was treated as. 2nd/3rd year medical resident and I can honestly say I’ve never been treated with more respect in my 20+ years of practice.

just my opinion

[Joelseff]

I️ agree! Medical Practitioner! MP (that’s my vote, if we ever get one)

We don't get one [emoji17]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[SHU-CH]

On 11/11/2017 at 11:27 AM, EMEDPA said:

I would like to see programs go to a 36 month model like USC currently does: 18 mo didactic, 18 mo clinical. Alternatively, a 24 month program with a 12 month postgrad internship/residency.

There are already more programs that do that (like us...)

[ProSpectre]

4 hours ago, SHU-CH said:

There are already more programs that do that (like us...)

What are your feelings on doctorate degrees for PAs? It has been noted that many (if not most) PA programs are already completing more credit hours than most master's degrees require, and more than many doctorate programs as well. My PA program completes the same number of credits as the DPT program that falls under the same school (although our program is a little shorter). Occupational therapists have just mandated that the doctorate will be the new standard of training for their field as well. Degree creep or not, I think there are valid arguments in favor of it. 

[SHU-CH]

I'm probably the wrong guy to ask. I was one of the guys that stood up in the AAPA House of Delegates and said that declaring the Master's degree the appropriate degree for the profession was a bad idea (while I was teaching at a school that awarded an MS).

Degrees don't impress me. I've met PhDs that have no interest in teaching and are about as bright as a sack of hammers. A doctoral degree says nothing about teaching competence, general competence, or intelligence. It speaks to a high level of endurance and a willingness to jumpt through hoops. 

Having said that, due to the general public perception of doctoral degrees, we are all headed there. And as you note, our program is more credits than the PhD programs at our school. 

 

[Miaow]

I'm going to get a PhD likely from the Lynchburg program. I am a clinical PA in OB/GYN and I am an educator in PA education. Simply for the pursuit of knowledge and because I enjoy the idea of having a new goal to work towards after 14 years of being a PA. 

[ventana]

12 hours ago, Miaow said:

I'm going to get a PhD likely from the Lynchburg program. I am a clinical PA in OB/GYN and I am an educator in PA education. Simply for the pursuit of knowledge and because I enjoy the idea of having a new goal to work towards after 14 years of being a PA. 

you will not get a PhD from lynchburg...

 

please at least learn the correct language

 

PhD is a research degree and not what we are advocating for.

[camoman1234]

DMSc does NOT equal PhD

I agree with ventana that you need to research what degree we are discussing as well as what degree the University you would like to attend is training you for. 

[Miaow]

I had almost forgotten how unpleasant people are here in this forum. Thank you so much for the reminder! 

[lkth487]

On 11/11/2017 at 11:27 AM, EMEDPA said:

I would like to see programs go to a 36 month model like USC currently does: 18 mo didactic, 18 mo clinical. Alternatively, a 24 month program with a 12 month postgrad internship/residency.

I'm not qualified to comment on PA education, so this is purely out of curiosity - not a judgement.  

If you're gonna say 36 months of PA school, and now residencies are coming into play as well -doesn't that take away many of the incentives to go to PA school?  My really good friend who did post bac with me went to PA school because in two years he was out and working making almost 100k while I was studying for step 1.... and had a minimum of five more years of training.   Now if PA school is 3 years, plus 1-2 years of residencies...that's 4-5 years of training - getting right up there with seven years of training for many specialties in medicine (4+3).  

[EMEDPA]

applicants to PA school had significant prior experience at the level of paramedic, nurse, respiratory therapist in the past. this is less true today. I personally feel the grads coming out today are not as ready to practice as those who graduated 10-20 years ago were. In a perfect world I would like to see a return to these standards requiring high levels of HCE. I know that isn't going to happen so I feel like we need to add something on the back end, either more clinical rotations or a 1 yr postgrad experience to get today's 24-25 yr old new grads to the same place the 30-35 yr old former nurse/medic/etc were when they graduated 10-20 years ago already knowing quite a bit about the culture and language of medicine and the basics of interacting with patients. rotation quality has also gone done for both PAs and MD/DO students, mostly due to fears over liability. I have heard stories recently from both PAs and physicians in training that they completed entire rotations in which they just shadowed a physician and took no active role in patient care. that isn't how you learn medicine. 

[camoman1234]

13 hours ago, Miaow said:

I had almost forgotten how unpleasant people are here in this forum. Thank you so much for the reminder! 

Not unpleasant, just truthful. If you are a PA-C and a educator you of all people should know the difference between a PhD and DMSc/DHSc/EdD, etc... To me that just shows lack of insight.

[wdtpac]

The LCME (the accrediting body for allopathic medical schools) requires 130 weeks of instruction (which equates to 130 hours) to complete the MD program.  Most PA programs are around 80-85.  Adding much more didactics to the PA curriculums and you are on par/at the current programs awarding residency slots.  Why not create a 2 tiered system for medical education?  Why can we not formulate a pathway for PAs to stay as dependent providers, while others that wish to progress, or work more autonomously, or be called DR or whatever, can do so?  What is so hard about having a pathway 1, which is relatively identical to current PA curriculum, at the end of the program the student takes the PANCE/and or USMLE1 and is then able to begin practice, under the supervision of a physician as it currently is being done today?  Then, have a pathway 2, after the 2 traditional years of PA school, take the PANCE and USMLE1, and beginning another year course to equate for the remaining 50 or so hours needed to meet LCME requirements for accreditation.  At the completion of the 50 weeks/hours, take USMLE 2 and try to match for residency (yes I know there is limited residency slots as is, but the point is to have our education system on point with LCME, accredited by LCME or similar accrediting body).  Surely, the DO's did something quite similar to this.

To me, OTP is silly and an uphill battle that will never be won with the moniker of assistant at the end of our name.  I am unsure if any other name besides "doctor" will provide rapport with patients at large and with physician colleagues and legislators.  I am also unsure of any other way to placate those of our colleagues and new graduates that wish (or need) more direction from a supervising physician. 

[EMEDPA]

2 hours ago, wdtpac said:

The LCME (the accrediting body for allopathic medical schools) requires 130 weeks of instruction (which equates to 130 hours) to complete the MD program.  Most PA programs are around 80-85. 

The #s I have heard before are 150 for md/do and 100 for pa. this is the basis for the "2/3rds of the work in 1/2 the time" line that is thrown around. docs have the summer off between year 1 and 2 and year 4 is mostly vacation blocks and interview time. more ambitious students might do an interview rotation or 2 and/or a sub-internship, but many 4th years basically goof off all year. a friend of mine spent most of his 4th yr on a "rural himalayan medicine elective" that he designed , which meant he climbed for a year and made occasional stops at little clinics to work for a day or 2 on the trail and then collected stats on the places he visited and wrote a paper that he published.

there is a fairly well established network of postgrad programs for PAs already, especially in things like EM and surgery.

I think in a perfect world it would be great if you could take pance and usmle step 1 after yr 2 of pa school and finish md/do, but it will never happen.

[lkth487]

I don't have any problems at all with PAs taking step 1/2 post PA school, doing some sub-i's and then being eligible for residency.  The education is broadly similar enough - probably they would just need to study some biochem/genetics/pathology mainly (based on comparing the curriculum at my local PA school). But if someone is willing to put in the time and study and pass - I think it's totally great. 

I do think the traditional medical residency /fellowship is crucial though - so I wouldn't have any shortcuts around that.  80hours/week for years and years sucks but it's so important in my opinion.   

I know people who worked in icu for a while and then did a fellowship and they told me how important it was to formally learn stuff and when all the complex decisions are directed towards you instead of just taking care of day to day stuff, it makes a huge difference in learning.