Nah we don't need a Doctorate level degree......

[ventana]

Seen in my local morning paper.......

(yes this is what the general public, lay people, legislators and policy makers read and yes the degree has influence....)

 

 

Doctor joins Greylock Audiology

Trevor Marcotte, a doctor of physical therapy, has joined the practice of Greylock Audiology and Dr. Andrew Putnik. A Berkshire County, native, Marcotte is a graduate of Springfield College’s Doctor of Physical Therapy program. He has extensive training in vestibular disorders and balance rehabilitation, but is also trained in more traditional physical therapy, including orthopedic and athletic injury rehabilitation, neurological rehabilitations orthopedic spine and medically based fitness.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Comments.....

[ventana]

Generalist PT is now a DPT

same in many of the allied health professions (which we are not a part of)

Not sure I agree with your DNP assessement - it is nor a research degreee - that would be a PhD, as for PharmD - yup that is just the degree they get now a days.....

 

The point is that the word "doctor" carries weight with the non medical professional, legislatures, and regulatory bodies.  

 

 

We get a Doctorate in a field of Medical Science   https://www.lynchburg.edu/graduate/physician-assistant-medicine/doctor-of-medical-science/  

 

Then as my tag line says, staged independent practice just like SLP

[camoman1234]

2 hours ago, ventana said:

Generalist PT is now a DPT

same in many of the allied health professions (which we are not a part of)

Not sure I agree with your DNP assessement - it is nor a research degreee - that would be a PhD, as for PharmD - yup that is just the degree they get now a days.....

 

The point is that the word "doctor" carries weight with the non medical professional, legislatures, and regulatory bodies.  

 

 

We get a Doctorate in a field of Medical Science   https://www.lynchburg.edu/graduate/physician-assistant-medicine/doctor-of-medical-science/  

 

Then as my tag line says, staged independent practice just like SLP

SLP cannot diagnosis as my sister in law is one and I have had extensive discussions about this. Their "fellowship" year is like a residency to help train and mold one after school. As every PA knows on this forum, it is very difficult to go from student to "in charge" in 1 day. So that transition period helps. I do not think that SLP has anything to do with us except that fact we should have a transition year to mold all new PAs. 

[CAAdmission]

Its ridiculous. Soon everyone will be a doctor. 

Meet your Doctor of Custodial Engineering:

[Zander7491]

I think it would be a mistake for the PA profession to create a Doctorate just for the sake of having one. There is already a concerning trend of new PA programs with relaxed patient care experience requirements…what is going to keep those same programs from accepting someone straight out of undergrad with no true healthcare experience and then slapping a “Doctorate” after their name a few years later? What does that sound like? Direct-entry DNP programs anyone? This has been discussed at length but just from my own personal observation working in direct patient care for the last 4 years, it still amazes me the number of new RN’s with 1 year or less of experience who are accepted into DNP programs with the clear intention of practicing independently when they come out the other side. Furthermore, I find it rather telling that RN’s with 10+ years of experience don’t want to go anywhere near any DNP programs because they know many of them are BS.

I think the concept of a “transitional year” is an interesting one, especially given the prevalence of such programs in Dentistry (GP Residency), which seem to be well-received and offer a great opportunity for new graduates to get their feet underneath of them. Personally, I have already decided for myself that if I pursue the PA profession, I WANT to pursue extra training/a residency so that I can demonstrate to those around me (collaborating physicians, residents, nurses, etc.) that I care enough about my profession and my patients to learn as much as possible to provide safe and knowledgeable care. In the future, I feel as though those PA’s demonstrating a vested and serious interest in learning all that there is to know about a given specialty, will make the greatest case in terms of being able to care for complex patients and practicing at a high/autonomous level.

As DNP practice has faced scrutiny for lack of clinical rigor, the PA profession has and will continue to face similar scrutiny over the fact that the profession is increasingly becoming younger in age, less clinically experienced, and thus, more concerned with getting school over with so that one can “make money sooner.” It has been said before and I reiterate, there are no shortcuts in medicine. It is an art. It takes time, dedication and motivation. The minimum requirement to become a board-certified Physician is 7 years, which equates to thousands of hours of experience. The minimum requirement to practice medicine as a PA is ~2 years…yes, in many cases there are at least 1,000 hours of clinical experience required for admission but regardless, the stakes are higher when one is in charge of planning and executing the treatment/plan of care.

If the next generation of students continue to pick PA because of its inherent shorter pathway to clinical practice with the expectation of wanting/being able to eventually practice autonomously, the profession is going to have far greater issues than whether or not it should offer a Doctorate.

 

TLDR: PA Doctorate is a witch-hunt.

[LKPAC]

It's called degree inflation.  If you check out actually classrooms hours, most PAs with an MS have more actual education than some of these "doctors."  Also, universities like degree inflation.  They can sell more (unnecessary) classes this way.  Yes, I am both cynical and skeptical.

[south]

19 minutes ago, LKPAC said:

It's called degree inflation.  If you check out actually classrooms hours, most PAs with an MS have more actual education than some of these "doctors."  Also, universities like degree inflation.  They can sell more (unnecessary) classes this way.  Yes, I am both cynical and skeptical.

BAM.  Not cynical or skeptical.  Real.  Follow the money.  Always.

It's a real shame.  Soon "doctor" will be meaningless and MD/DO will have trouble distinguishing themselves from these (mostly) joke degrees. 

[DizzyJ]

7 hours ago, ventana said:

 

We get a Doctorate in a field of Medical Science   https://www.lynchburg.edu/graduate/physician-assistant-medicine/doctor-of-medical-science/  

 

Then as my tag line says, staged independent practice just like SLP

I do not want independent practice to be coupled with needing a doctorate degree.  The majority of NPs just have a master's and they have gained much independence without doctorates. 

[EMEDPA]

6 hours ago, Zander7491 said:

 

I think the concept of a “transitional year” is an interesting one, especially given the prevalence of such programs in Dentistry (GP Residency), which seem to be well-received and offer a great opportunity for new graduates to get their feet underneath of them. Personally, I have already decided for myself that if I pursue the PA profession, I WANT to pursue extra training/a residency so that I can demonstrate to those around me (collaborating physicians, residents, nurses, etc.) that I care enough about my profession and my patients to learn as much as possible to provide safe and knowledgeable care. In the future, I feel as though those PA’s demonstrating a vested and serious interest in learning all that there is to know about a given specialty, will make the greatest case in terms of being able to care for complex patients and practicing at a high/autonomous level.

 

 

agree. I think the wave of the future for PAs is required internship in a specialty, followed by a specialty board exam.

my preference would be this progression:

bs/ba degree to MS level 2 yr PA program to 1 yr residency/internship concluding in a doctorate and specialty board certification. 7 yr progression(not including hce) vs min 11 for md/do.

[boli]

11 hours ago, ventana said:

Seen in my local morning paper.......

(yes this is what the general public, lay people, legislators and policy makers read and yes the degree has influence....)

 

 

Doctor joins Greylock Audiology

Trevor Marcotte, a doctor of physical therapy, has joined the practice of Greylock Audiology and Dr. Andrew Putnik. A Berkshire County, native, Marcotte is a graduate of Springfield College’s Doctor of Physical Therapy program. He has extensive training in vestibular disorders and balance rehabilitation, but is also trained in more traditional physical therapy, including orthopedic and athletic injury rehabilitation, neurological rehabilitations orthopedic spine and medically based fitness.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Comments.....

My wife is a DPT and we kind of joke tongue in cheek about her "being a doctor". While it's nice and all, PT wages didn't really see a substantial increase as they went from a masters to a doctorate degree, just an increase in school which is accompanied by an increase in loans. That being said, PT's that graduate from doctorate level programs ARE trained to a higher standard than PTs that graduated from master's programs in years past. The ultimate goal for PT is to be the primary provider for musculo-skeletal injuries. Since becoming DPTs they've seen a substantial increase in the ability to see patients without a Rx from a MD/DO. Also, most PTs don't actually go by "Doctor" in the clinic setting unless they have a PhD, the ones who do are considered douches by their peers. 

 If other professions want to move to a doctorate (like PA for example) I think it should be done with judicious consideration of whether or not the increased education that accompanies the move results in better pt outcomes OR increased autonomy/compensation. 

[boli]

33 minutes ago, EMEDPA said:

agree. I think the wave of the future for PAs is required internship in a specialty, followed by a specialty board exam.

Not that I think you're wrong, but why go PA then? HCE+PA school+internship really not that much shorter than med school+residency at that point and you're forced into a specialty. Two of the more attractive attributes of the profession (IMO) are the flexibility and the shorter school path 

[PACali]

 

On 11/7/2017 at 2:33 PM, EMEDPA said:

agree. I think the wave of the future for PAs is required internship in a specialty, followed by a specialty board exam.

my preference would be this progression:

bs/ba degree to MS level 2 yr PA program to 1 yr residency/internship concluding in a doctorate and specialty board certification. 7 yr progression(not including hce) vs min 11 for md/do.

 Agree with EMEDPA, but I think we should choose our battle. We should focus on primary care first because physicians do not want to go into primary care.   

I think PAs can really dominate the primary care workforce by doing 2 years to 2.5 years of PA school (some schools are 2.5 years) + 2 years postgraduate training + passing the board (family medicine board or a new type primary care board) = OTP/FPAR and function like a family doc in family practice, urgent care or ER fast-track setting.

I know there are a lot of questions in this model and I don't have all the answers but this is a start. I do think residency is our ticket to OTP/ FPAR. 

I think with this model, a doctorate degree will be more appropriate and of course, we will need a name change because DR. Assistant just doesn't make any sense.  

There is already 3-year accelerated medical school to family medicine program  

http://med.psu.edu/md/accelerated/family-medicine

 

[PACali]

On 11/7/2017 at 7:42 AM, CJAdmission said:

Its ridiculous. Soon everyone will be a doctor. 

Meet your Doctor of Custodial Engineering:

1

LOL, that actually sounds more educated than Master in Physician Assistant Studies!

[MedicinePower]

https://www.mcphs.edu/academics/school-of-physician-assistant-studies/physician-assistant/physican-assistant-studies-doctor-of-science

 

"The DScPAS program is offered online, allowing students to balance career advancement with the rest of their busy lives. Designed for working PAs holding MPAS or equivalent degrees, the DScPAS program provides an online pathway for PAs to enhance their current practice and expand future opportunities. The format of this part-time program allows students to continue working while advancing their education."

[Guest JMPA]

On 11/7/2017 at 11:45 AM, Zander7491 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, MedicinePower said:

 

" Personally, I have already decided for myself that if I pursue the PA profession, I WANT to pursue extra training/a residency so that I can demonstrate to those around me (collaborating physicians, residents, nurses, etc.) that I care enough about my profession and my patients to learn as much as possible to provide safe and knowledgeable care. "

This is a dangerous and careless statement to make. It shows that lack of understanding on how the PA profession functions. It shows lack of confidence in the training model of the profession. As a certified practicing PA you will learn quite quickly that you will be persuing extra training every day of your active career. I recommend that you wait until you finish PA school before committing to a residency. In my opinion your training should be complete and proficient by the end of your program. You should be able to start your first job with close suppervision that allows you to grow professionally. Many PA residency programs essentially provide cheap labor for big hospitals.PA residents make less than RNs, even less than custodians. 

[camoman1234]

15 hours ago, PACali said:

 

 Agree with EMEDPA, but I think we should choose our battle. We should focus on primary care first because physicians do not want to go into primary care.   

I think PAs can really dominate the primary care workforce by doing 2 years to 2.5 years of PA school (some schools are 2.5 years) + 2 years postgraduate training + passing the board (family medicine board or a new type primary care board) = OTP/FPAR and function like a family doc in family practice, urgent care or ER fast-track setting.

I know there are a lot of questions in this model and I don't have all the answers but this is a start. I do think residency is our ticket to OTP/ FPAR. 

I think with this model, a doctorate degree will be more appropriate and of course, we will need a name change because DR. Assistant just doesn't make any sense.  

There is already 3-year accelerated medical school to family medicine program  

http://med.psu.edu/md/accelerated/family-medicine

 

These 3 year FM programs have been around for a while, nothing new. Residency is the key, but how far do we need to take this education thing? I do not have the answers, but a post-grad residency/fellowship is key at least for primary care/UC/fast track ER. 

[DizzyJ]

I don't understand why the PA profession would need to get a doctorate, do a residency, or really do anything extra to gain independence.  NPs didn't have to do any of this BS.  However, I am onboard with supervision/collaboration requirement right out of school and then achieve independence after so many years of practice. 

[JMPAC]

I don’t like the idea of PAs being required to have a doctorate. I️ knew a couple PTs that had master’s and then had to do online doctorate programs just for the sake of having them and literally nothing changed about their jobs. I’m married to a PT and we both would’ve been happy with one less year of tuition for a master’s instead of the doctorate. PT school is expensive and making it a doctorate didn’t do anything impressive for their salaries, so it was probably a pretty poor investment if you look at the numbers (good investment if that’s your dream job that you’re passionate about). If we start doing doctorates and residencies, will we be paid accordingly afterwards?
I️ wasn’t interested in a residency. To be fair, I️ got into a great EM job that is a great learning environment and I’m a learn on the job type of person (part of why PA appealed to me). I️ know a couple people who went into residencies right after school and they basically just had jobs that paid WAY less and added a few course work type things. I went to a few conferences, study, do continuing ed and make about 3 times as much money as one of my residency friends. Will it help them get jobs in the future? Not sure that’s any different from me either, as I just did get a new job and in the process had no problems getting interviews and turned down several offers before picking the best fit. I️ don’t know all the things about all the residencies, this is just my perspective and what I’ve seen of them.
I’ve always thought of the PA career as just a different path to practicing medicine. Its for people who don’t want to spend so many years in course work and testing, more hands on, jump right in type learners, have different life experiences and careers, want flexibility instead of committing to a specialty forever, etc, etc. If we get doctorate degrees and have to do residencies, why not just do DO or MD?
It’s great to have residencies out there as an option, but I️ don’t think it should be a requirement. What about these MD students that never get a residency? Isn’t there some kind of shortage or issue with that? PA programs are already struggling to find all their clinical rotations, wouldn’t making residency a requirement really limit how many people actually become a PA? Schools can keep taking lots of students and not care if there are enough residencies for them to continue into. Then there a bunch of super invested and in debt, educated and willing prospective PAs that will never practice because there weren’t enough residency spots? This same thing happens with registered dietitians. There are very limited internships (which are required prior to taking a national exam) so a lot of nutrition and dietetic students get through their undergrad work and then can’t become RDs because of the brutally competitive internship situation (because of the number of applicants vs limited spots). That’s a blessing in disguise for some because they go on to become PAs instead. ;)
Once again, my post has become ridiculously long. I just see these ideas above about changing the PA path so much that it may as well be DO/MD at some point and just not exist. I️ don’t think the current education system is really all that flawed. All the PAs I️ meet are smart, capable, professionals who provide fantastic patient care. We have to be doing something right!

[gbrothers98]

Transition to a doctorate will happen in near future, 5-10 yrs from now, perhaps even less.

Big name program will make first jump (Duke? Yale? GW?). Will justify that students are already doing near doctorate level work when taking into consideration credit load and research/thesis requirements.

All in the name of parity in the healthcare realm and producing leaders to represent profession.

This will allow programs to expand to 3-4 yrs in length. Will separate those who look for the quick 2 year jump into profession, result in more committed applicants. 

More tuition dollars for programs. Allows them to get more resources due to contribution to sponsoring institution bottom line.

At same time will see contraction of programs due to increasing accreditation requirements in the areas of self study and clinical experiences. Programs that embrace the doctorate will be ahead of the pack. 

Won't mean a thing to practicing PAs with certificates, BS or Masters degrees just like the transition to Masters in last decade or so. Will get grandfathered into state where practice if legislation changes, transition there will take years. In interim, existing online masters bridge programs will move to offer doctorate since nonmasters population dries up. Most current PAs won't pursue unless clear cut reason to do so or someone else is paying. 

This will happen after or in conjunction with OTP, adds justification and backing to status. Will gain support from ARC, PAEA, NCCPA and AAPA, no obstacle in the way then, will declare it so, provide instruction and direction to make it happen. Initial programs to do so will offer blueprint. 

Will also translate into a period of limited supply and increased demand for existing PAs. Movement to a 3 to 4 year cohort and paring back of programs able to do so will lead to less grads and likely higher salaries for all involved. Moving to a doctorate will likely curtail program growth that currently concerns PA organizations and the profession in general. 

George

[Reality Check 2]

A 99213 and a 99214 will get the same billing return whether the PA has a Masters, Doctorate or papal decree.

Bottom line.

Degrees are inflated and a "perception" of being better or more qualified. 

Until your level of degree makes a difference in your bottom line to the employer - why bother?

For me, right now, a higher degree means nothing. Can a provider differentiate said elbow from a hole in the ground - that what's matters.

[UpRegulated]

On 11/7/2017 at 9:42 AM, CJAdmission said:

Its ridiculous. Soon everyone will be a doctor. 

We didn't start the fire.  But we've at least fanned it a little.

By "we" I mean PA's and NP's.

For years, one could be a PA with an AS.  Now an MS is required.  Is the training really that much different?

For all the whining, moaning, and nashing of teeth that the DNP just adds "fluff" hours to the MS in nursing, the same can be said of the transition of AS to MS for PA's.

It's just degree creep.  A doctoral degree is becoming the norm in healthcare and there's no stopping that.

The DNP is nursing's answer.  PA's need one too.

[PACrankset]

16 minutes ago, UpRegulated said:

We didn't start the fire.

By "we" I mean PA's and NP's.

It's just degree creep.  AS to BS to MS to doctorate.  A doctoral degree is becoming the norm in healthcare and there's no stopping that.

The DNP is nursing's answer.  PA's need one to.

I agree I think the Doctorate for PAs is inevitable. I just don't want to see an unwarranted jump in degree name without any change to curriculum. I believe any jump to a Doctorate should be based in clinical medicine, whether that means additional rotation + Didactic content or a degree that is awarded after completion of a residency in a specialty field. I don't want to see something like the majority of DNP programs where they just changed the title and added one or two BS courses on nursing theory. If we must have a doctorate lets at least make it mean something.

[JMPAC]

I could get behind additional or longer clinical rotations. That’s where the real learning happens and the more direct patient experience, the better. I’d say longer rotations. I️ felt like as soon as I️ was starting to really get into it, it would be time to move on. Although, there were 1 or 2 that I️ couldn’t wait to get done with, but that was preceptor related.

[UpRegulated]

Just now, milesHenson1 said:

I agree I think the Doctorate for PAs is inevitable. I just don't want to see an unwarranted jump in degree name without any change to curriculum. I believe any jump to a Doctorate should be based in clinical medicine, whether that means additional rotation + Didactic content or a degree that is awarded after completion of a residency in a specialty field. I don't want to see something like the majority of DNP programs where they just changed the title and added one or two BS courses on nursing theory. If we must have a doctorate lets at least make it mean something.

I wholeheartedly agree.  But that's hard to pull off.  Why?  Because if you introduce a doctorate (wide spread) that adds something like a residency, or additional clinical hours, or more sciences, etc. then you simultaneously undercut and undermine all practicing PA's who have "only" a master's degree.  It's sends the message, unintentionally or not, correct or not, that existing PA's aren't adequately trained.  It could very well be perceived as an admission that existing PA training is inadequate, which, of course, is false.

[boli]

4 hours ago, gbrothers98 said:

Transition to a doctorate will happen in near future, 5-10 yrs from now, perhaps even less.

Big name program will make first jump (Duke? Yale? GW?). Will justify that students are already doing near doctorate level work when taking into consideration credit load and research/thesis requirements.

All in the name of parity in the healthcare realm and producing leaders to represent profession.

This will allow programs to expand to 3-4 yrs in length. Will separate those who look for the quick 2 year jump into profession, result in more committed applicants. 

More tuition dollars for programs. Allows them to get more resources due to contribution to sponsoring institution bottom line.

At same time will see contraction of programs due to increasing accreditation requirements in the areas of self study and clinical experiences. Programs that embrace the doctorate will be ahead of the pack. 

Won't mean a thing to practicing PAs with certificates, BS or Masters degrees just like the transition to Masters in last decade or so. Will get grandfathered into state where practice if legislation changes, transition there will take years. In interim, existing online masters bridge programs will move to offer doctorate since nonmasters population dries up. Most current PAs won't pursue unless clear cut reason to do so or someone else is paying. 

This will happen after or in conjunction with OTP, adds justification and backing to status. Will gain support from ARC, PAEA, NCCPA and AAPA, no obstacle in the way then, will declare it so, provide instruction and direction to make it happen. Initial programs to do so will offer blueprint. 

Will also translate into a period of limited supply and increased demand for existing PAs. Movement to a 3 to 4 year cohort and paring back of programs able to do so will lead to less grads and likely higher salaries for all involved. Moving to a doctorate will likely curtail program growth that currently concerns PA organizations and the profession in general. 

George

just my opinion, but this will be the death of the PA profession. Why would any student go to PA school with this model instead of Med school? To get away from the MCAT? With HCE factored in this format basically saves you no time or money compared to med school and you come out making less. Also, if it's anything like Physical Therapy, the PTs with masters were required to take additional classes to transition to DPTs.