jmj11 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 I live in a hotbed of "naturopathic medicine." NDs are PCPs just about as often as MDs, PAs or NPs. These NDs are doing more and more things that make my head spin. A patient of mine yesterday is doing "Ozone Therapy" now with her ND. They take her blood out into a 1-liter bag. Heparinized it. Bubble ozone through it for a few minutes and then put it back in her vein. She pays $150 cash for each treatment. She must have two treatments a week for a year. It has a 100% cure rate (per the ND) for fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, migraines, autoimmune disease (all of them), obesity, seronegative Lyme Disease and hundreds of others (did I mention cancer). For more information see: http://www.oxygenhealingtherapies.com/Medical_Ozone_Cancer.html I was a lecturer in a meeting once where I went after an ND. I sat and listened to her. She made no sense and seemed to have a high school level understanding how the human body work. She made outrageous statements with 100% confidence. Some days I wish I were an ND because I could make shit up all day long and look like a freak-in genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Chiropractors around here were injecting ozone into joints. The idea of a chiropractor injecting ANYTHING terrifies especially since they say they can cure otitis by adjusting necks and shoulders. The whole idea of reinjecting adulterated blood by an ND should be terrifying and not legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsman89 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Whoa. That's on a whole new level of "natural." Question: Wouldn't heparinizing the blood 2x per week cause elevated PTT? Or would it be insignificant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted June 8, 2017 Administrator Share Posted June 8, 2017 She pays $150 cash for each treatment. She must have two treatments a week for a year. $150 * 2 * 52 = $15,600 Must be nice to have that kind of money to throw away. Hope that a lightening of the pocketbook is the only bad outcome she experiences. Too bad that NDs aren't answerable to MQAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ERCat Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 My program weirdly had me do a rotation and a naturopathic school. Sadly, it was a complete waste of a rotation. I am definitely into integrative and alternative medicine… But of course only if it's backed by science. The problem is most of these naturopathic schools are teaching methods that have no scientific basis. For example I spent an hour a day watching the students try to reshape patients' chakras. It literally just looked like they were waving their hands in the air in front of the patient. For an hour. They also did this thing where they were muscle testing different medications and supplements. They would literally put the medication on the patient's chest and then push on their arm and look for a response from the arm to see if it was the right medication. I wish I was joking. I got really irritated when all of the doctors, yes ND doctors, were stressing out about an EKG on one of their young patients saying sinus arrtthymia. When I kept telling them that that's a normal and healthy variant in this young person, they kept telling me "No, it's an ARRYTHMIA!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ERCat Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 My favorite was this lady who came in to the school with an abscess under her arm. Everybody looked at it and "Ooohed" and "ahhhed" had a long discussion about all the compresses they could put on it and all of the herbs they could give her to boost her immune system, and analyze what was going on with her emotionally for her to have that pop up under her arm, and I'm just sitting there thinking... just incise and drain the damn thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Chiropractors around here were injecting ozone into joints. The idea of a chiropractor injecting ANYTHING terrifies especially since they say they can cure otitis by adjusting necks and shoulders. The whole idea of reinjecting adulterated blood by an ND should be terrifying and not legal. Must be an excessively long eustachian tube to be able to cure OM with neck manipulation. Maybe I need to try that today. Epley maneuvers to treat OM! Surely all that manipulation will also open the eustachian tube. I bet I would have about a 50% success rate after 48 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 I used to get folks coming in from the live blood analyst telling me they had parasites in their blood and I had to do something about it...I'd ask what kind and the patient says "you know, parasites". They were right once - I had diagnosed someone with malaria - but the clown was looking at extracelllular debris, not the erythrocytes by what I was being told. 9/10, these "practitioners" (they only need about 3 hours of training and a really expensive machine to work) will tell people to take some more calcium and magnesium and solve all their ills... As Rev said, must be nice to have disposable income. SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaepora Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Whoa. That's on a whole new level of "natural." Question: Wouldn't heparinizing the blood 2x per week cause elevated PTT? Or would it be insignificant? That's a good question. I would imagine that in the normal patient it would be insignificant. When I think of HD patients who receive a bolus dose of heparin prior to initiating treatment and an infusion of heparin throughout their treatment, on top of an already present uremic platelet dysfunction, 3x a week... But I wouldn't think the ND is monitoring PTT levels prior to or during this "therapy". So what would happen to the ND in the patient at high risk for bleeding that experiences an adverse bleeding event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 I wonder if ozone cures "adrenal fatigue"? All my ND patients have adrenal fatigue. I have brain fatigue trying to figure out all the crap the NDs are feeding my patients. "NO, your TSH cannot be 0.004 and be ok." "NO, I will not check your cortisol once a month. You don't have Cushings." "NO, I will not order these 50 tests in my name that your naturopath can't get paid for. I don't even know what some of these tests are." Now, back to my day in FP....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted June 8, 2017 Author Share Posted June 8, 2017 I wonder if ozone cures "adrenal fatigue"? All my ND patients have adrenal fatigue. I have brain fatigue trying to figure out all the crap the NDs are feeding my patients. "NO, your TSH cannot be 0.004 and be ok." "NO, I will not check your cortisol once a month. You don't have Cushings." "NO, I will not order these 50 tests in my name that your naturopath can't get paid for. I don't even know what some of these tests are." Now, back to my day in FP....................... “Good loses. Good always loses because good has to play by the rules. Evil doesn't.” ― Henry Mills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 I wonder if ozone cures "adrenal fatigue"? All my ND patients have adrenal fatigue. I have brain fatigue trying to figure out all the crap the NDs are feeding my patients. "NO, your TSH cannot be 0.004 and be ok." "NO, I will not check your cortisol once a month. You don't have Cushings." "NO, I will not order these 50 tests in my name that your naturopath can't get paid for. I don't even know what some of these tests are." Now, back to my day in FP....................... Where I work, that is considered defrauding the health care system - if the voodoo doc wants voodoo tests, they're allowed to order them, but the patient has to pay out of pocket...so they show up in the office expecting us to order the tests for them so they don't have to pay. We say "No", patient gets mad, because voodoo doc told them to come see us and it'll get done...without even a note from them as to why. When I explained I'm not ordering something for someone else I don't feel is appropriate, I spent more time arguing than I feel I was being reimbursed for being asked to commit fraud. The way I look at it, if you can afford to see a witch doctor, you can afford to pay for the tests they feel you allegedly need. SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted June 8, 2017 Administrator Share Posted June 8, 2017 “Good loses. Good always loses because good has to play by the rules. Evil doesn't.” ― Henry Mills Or, in its more popular paraphrase... "So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." --Dark Helmet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 “Good loses. Good always loses because good has to play by the rules. Evil doesn't.” ― Henry Mills But Karma is a real beeotch. And it will bite back in the end. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Pt today has been going to the chiropractor for over 9 months for back pain and it doesn't get any better but she kept going. The little cold laser clicker thingy isn't helping. Something the chiro did now makes her back audibly pop with every step she takes. Came to me today and now wants the million dollar workup for nonradicular back pain with ZERO meds, ZERO PT. Doesn't want to take ANY meds but wants me to make this pain go away right now. Wants the popping (painless) to go away. I looked in my desk but found no magic 8 ball and my Harry Potter Disneyland wand is busted. I have been set up for failure by the chiro who says all allo/osteo medicine is evil. Deep sigh Not going to use my sharp rock on me this time. Might chuck it at the chiro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMtoPA Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 There was a story in the news not long ago, I think out of San Diego, about a lady who died after her ND performed an IV turmeric infusion on her. She was in her early 30s, and being treated for eczema or something, and she died. So pointless. But people want to believe this garbage so much, and buy into it without a trace of cynicism, while at the same time rejecting evidence-based, peer-reviewed medicine. The ozone thing is funny. Reminds me of my hot tub, which has an ozonator. Makes me think the pool guy decided to set up shop as a naturopath on the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 When my patients retort "It's NATURAL". I say ---- So is foxglove, opium and marijuana yet they all have negative side effects. Usually a bit of silence after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Poisonous mushrooms are natural yet we avoid them like the plague. That is how I likewise feel about NDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 When my patients retort "It's NATURAL". I say ---- So is foxglove, opium and marijuana yet they all have negative side effects. Usually a bit of silence after that. I should send you my calligraphy project I put ever so obviously where my patients would see it - "All substances are poisons; there are none that are not; it is the dose that determines a poison or a cure. Paracelsus" Did the chiro suggest some sort of eye of newt or tongue of toad or dancing around a goat carcass to help rectify this? I seem to recall reading an autobiography of an ex SEAL that became a chiropractor...one of his class mates so bought into the "we can cure everything with manipulation" stuff that she ended up dying from mastoiditis because she refused antibiotics. Here's your sign... SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcstout Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Otitis Media is self limiting about 80% of the time anyways so---any treatment could cure it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 When my patients retort "It's NATURAL". I say ---- So is foxglove, opium and marijuana yet they all have negative side effects. Usually a bit of silence after that. I say: So is lightening, rattlesnake venom, botulism and most of the bacteria and virii that kill people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katera Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Anyone see the "Blood Boy" episode on HBO's Silicon Valley? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Don't forget how Steve Jobs was able to cure his pancreatic cancer with herbs and meditation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Don't forget how Steve Jobs was able to cure his pancreatic cancer with herbs and meditation. How is Steve doing these days? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I agree that there are ND/DC's out there to get people and take their money, but this is the USA and we are free to choose. I want to say respectfully that the Steve Jobs comment is not funny, that was someone's dad/brother/uncle/husband/friend. He is a human and just because he did not choose the choice YOU would make to take care of your health doesn't mean he needs to be disrespected. Do we laugh at the veteran that committed suicide...? That's not the choice I would make, but doesn't mean we make fun of them...Let's be professional on this forum and respect other peoples ways of life and choices. Again, I am not for these bogus ND/DC's that do all this junk without EBM, but I do stay respectful as this is how PA's should present themselves if we want to be taken serious with our arguments/etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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