sas5814 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Do we respect anti vaccine people whose choices hurt their children and now the population at large? How about people who pray over their sick children until they die? There is a big difference between respecting people's RIGHT to make a choice and respect for the choice itself. You have conflated the two and then added in a comparison to veteran's suicide with choosing to die at the hands of medical quackery which, as a 3 times combat deployed veteran I find offensive. It is also totally not related to the discussion of naturopathy which deserves our scorn and mockery.. See how easy it is to run afoul of the PC police? It is also tiresome and tedious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Not sure how you find the veteran's suicide offensive, it is the truth and their choice (right or wrong), but you don't see people making fun of veteran/suicide (but you can make fun of someone that chose to do nothing with his cancer)...That is the real issue I am bringing. Also, we are just one nation that does things one way, just because people do not won't to vaccine their children is their choice. I have not conflated the two as these are all choices... This argument could go on forever with topics of genital mutilation/abortion/religious beliefs/dietary measures/euthanasia etc...I won't even go into various topics as we won't agree on them, again this is not about TOPIC, but about respect. I could care less what you believe, but the Steve comment "how is steve doing these days" is very offensive. That was my point to this discussion was choice still means they are humans and even though you disagree with it doesn't mean you need to make fun of them...Thank you for your service sir and hope you take this message kindly and understand my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 That was my point. It wasn't offensive particularly but if you are inclined to be offended it could be. What you conflated was respect for the individuals right to make a choice with respect for the choice. Steve Jobs was a really brilliant guy who made a stupid choice in trying to treat cancer with herbs and meditation. He has the right to make the choice. I have the right to notice and comment on its absurdity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 We're all gonna die, lads. I will confess that sometimes I laugh when people choose to accelerate the process through sheer folly, i.e. http://www.darwinawards.com/ I'll buy Steve a beer in heaven someday to make up for the slight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 sas5814, I can't believe I'm having this conversation but I guess it doesn't matter as we will never agree. You again missed the point but that is fine cause I won't waste anymore of our time. Your still disrespecting him by calling him stupid just because you don't believe the way he does. Medicine is not the cure all and I will not argue that point. There are various ways to treat an illness and that might be (for that person) choosing to do nothing. I hope have more empathy for patients that don't think just like you...have a great day sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2234leej Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Pt today has been going to the chiropractor for over 9 months for back pain and it doesn't get any better but she kept going. The little cold laser clicker thingy isn't helping. Something the chiro did now makes her back audibly pop with every step she takes. Came to me today and now wants the million dollar workup for nonradicular back pain with ZERO meds, ZERO PT. Doesn't want to take ANY meds but wants me to make this pain go away right now. Wants the popping (painless) to go away. I looked in my desk but found no magic 8 ball and my Harry Potter Disneyland wand is busted. I have been set up for failure by the chiro who says all allo/osteo medicine is evil. Deep sigh Not going to use my sharp rock on me this time. Might chuck it at the chiro. Haha I can't count how many times I've seen patients who went to a chiropractor prior to seeing me for PT. I know this might offend people, but I really do believe there are more bad apples in the bunch for chiros than any other healthcare profession. But hearing your story makes believe they may have competition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 http://globalnews.ca/news/3502992/women-are-putting-ground-up-wasp-nests-in-their-vaginas-and-doctors-want-them-to-stop/ That is all. SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 sas5814, I can't believe I'm having this conversation but I guess it doesn't matter as we will never agree. You again missed the point but that is fine cause I won't waste anymore of our time. Your still disrespecting him by calling him stupid just because you don't believe the way he does. Medicine is not the cure all and I will not argue that point. There are various ways to treat an illness and that might be (for that person) choosing to do nothing. I hope have more empathy for patients that don't think just like you...have a great day sir. you are right we are never going to agree and you are stunned that I don't see your point of view because it is "correct" and "tolerant" and " non judgemental". Your argument supposed nothing and nobody is stupid and if they are then respect means not saying it out loud. Naturopathy is snake oil and it hurts people. When someone famous, a genius gives it credibility and then dies as a result it is stupid. Then more people follow and get hurt.The deserves our judgement and our derision. I never said medicine was everything.You interjected that. I also never said alternative medicine was complete hocum...just this kind of harmful garbage. We judge everything and everyone all day every day. You are judging me and I am you and the people reading this are judging both of us. It is as much a part of us and our DNA. It is part of what keeps us safe. Respect doesn't mean giving a pass to any behavior or choice just because someone has the right to make that choice. Basic human respect everyone deserves. Respect for every stupid ,foolish, damaging, choice deserves no respect at all...period. The idea of tolerance has been so warped as to have lost all meaning. We are theoretically scientist and "alternative medicine" that relies on anecdotal evidence and the fact it has been around for a long time isn't science or medicine. It is faith and no different from faith healing until proven otherwise. To quote an unknown speaker...alternative medicine either hasn't been proven to work or has been proven to not work because when it works it becomes medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 No my argument is people are stupid, but calling them names and making fun of them for their decision to not follow main stream media on chemotherapy and have a more quality of life doesn't mean they made a bad decision. So if he did chemotherapy, was sick all day long, in the hospital with infections, and died on the same day would make you feel better? Most of alternative medicine has not been proven because pharma cannot make money off it so they don't do studies. The small little guys don't have the money, nor can find something to do all this research for free...this is the root cause of the problem. I do not agree with spraying pesticides all over my food which are known to cause cancer (read the back of the bottle of seven dust or any other herbicide), but that is how it is cause of $$$. Just because "we" do things does not mean it is good. I am getting off topic with the original comment, so back to it. I do not tell my patients that choose to formula feed their baby/choose disposable diapers vs cloth diapers/choose to circumcise their son/feed their children soda from a bottle or loads of candy stupid for all these decisions that I do not agree with. I do not get my bible out and yell at a 16 yr old for having an abortion, right or wrong these are peoples decisions and we must (as providers) respect this. Does not mean we have to perform abortions (or give them EC pill), but to respect their decision and help them through the hard time they are having. So you don't believe that DMII can be controlled by diet/exercise? If you ever have had a patient control their diabetes with diet/exercise alone then you are practicing naturopathy. Look up the definition... Don't discredit everything before you understand the true meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 If someone does stupid things, don't we really do them a disservice by not bringing it to their attention? Personally, I would rather feel a fool for a moment than persist in ignorance forever. The sad fact of the matter is there are a lot of impressionable people out there that are not too bright. Being dumb does not make one a bad person. I feel bad that they are preyed upon by all kinds of bizzarro clinicians and imbeciles like Jenny McCarthy. When you work in the ER, your time is disproportionately spent with people on the upslope of the bell-curve. If you choose to take your healthcare advice from some celebutard, I will usually think it is funny if you have a bad outcome. I feel a little bad if you are dull-witted. If you are an egomanical genius ruling a multibillion dollar corporation, I feel less bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 No my argument is people are stupid, but calling them names and making fun of them for their decision to not follow main stream media on chemotherapy and have a more quality of life doesn't mean they made a bad decision. So if he did chemotherapy, was sick all day long, in the hospital with infections, and died on the same day would make you feel better? This decision was not made due to a quality of life issue. It was made in the belief that a vegan diet, herbs, meditation, psychics and like manner of things would prove curative. Here is an interview with Jobs' buddy Dave Kelley: And Steve Jobs was also there for Kelley when the unthinkable happened. In 2007, Kelley was diagnosed with throat cancer – and given a 40 percent chance of survival. Jobs, already suffering from his own deadly cancer, gave him some advice. David Kelley: He came over and said, “Look, you know, don’t consider any alternative – go straight to Western medicine. Don’t try any herbs or anything.” Charlie Rose: Why do you think Steve said, “Don’t look for alternative medicine, go straight to the hard stuff?” David Kelley: I think he had made- in his mind, he had made the mistake that he had tried to cure his pancreatic cancer in other ways other than, I mean, he just said, “Don’t mess around.” You know, when we both had cancer at the same time was when I got really close to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 If someone does stupid things, don't we really do them a disservice by not bringing it to their attention? Personally, I would rather feel a fool for a moment than persist in ignorance forever. The sad fact of the matter is there are a lot of impressionable people out there that are not too bright. Being dumb does not make on a bad person. I feel bad that they are preyed upon by all kinds of bizzarro clinicians and imbeciles like Jenny McCarthy. When you work in the ER, your time is disproportionately spent with people on the upslope of the bell-curve. If you choose to take your healthcare advice from some celebutard, I will usually think it is funny if you have a bad outcome. I feel a little bad if you are dull-witted. If you are an egomanical genius ruling a multibillion dollar corporation, I feel less bad. I agree and never said not to educate them, but you have to walk a fine line with that education. There could be multiple reasons for one's decision and that comes with taking time to speak with them, but my whole point was not to make fun of that person for their right to choose what they want to do. Do I agree with euthanasia, no, but would sit down with that patient and understand how I can help them with whatever they need, no say "Where did that euthanasia get them?" or make comments about how they left their family and hurt them, etc...Again, there is a very fine line we have to have when dealing with various issues (right or wrong in your minds and/or mainstream media of the USA). Are there topics you are more passionate about and will educate more on, yes which is fine in my eyes, but do be rude and crude is not fine. If you choose your healthcare with someone in a different country that is different than how "we" think then you will disagree with their decision as well? Your last few sentences worry me and is not how I think, I would not make fun of them, except try and help others to understand what I think is best for their personal situation. I guess I see people different than you CJ because having money and being "smart" doesn't mean I feel less for their situation. "The victims should be treated with compassion." However you would like to define victim is fine with him. Sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 This decision was not made due to a quality of life issue. It was made in the belief that a vegan diet, herbs, meditation, psychics and like manner of things would prove curative. Here is an interview with Jobs' buddy Dave Kelley: And Steve Jobs was also there for Kelley when the unthinkable happened. In 2007, Kelley was diagnosed with throat cancer – and given a 40 percent chance of survival. Jobs, already suffering from his own deadly cancer, gave him some advice. David Kelley: He came over and said, “Look, you know, don’t consider any alternative – go straight to Western medicine. Don’t try any herbs or anything.” Charlie Rose: Why do you think Steve said, “Don’t look for alternative medicine, go straight to the hard stuff?” David Kelley: I think he had made- in his mind, he had made the mistake that he had tried to cure his pancreatic cancer in other ways other than, I mean, he just said, “Don’t mess around.” You know, when we both had cancer at the same time was when I got really close to him. I think it is about quality as a diet/lifestyle/mental health breaks/etc is about quality of life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 My big issue socially is that folks seem to always want to fall back on "regular medicine" when their methods fail AND at taxpayer expense. So, a disease or condition that could have been treated and resolved with excellent evidence and years of history gets treated by some alternative nightmare and becomes more complicated and THEN the patient cries foul and wants to be treated to the nines but doesn't have insurance and wants taxpayer based support for allowing their condition to become worse before seeking treatment. And, YES, I support single payer medicine. If we all have access then we should all have prevention and access in time of need and maybe these millions of dollars won't be needed for late stage poor intervention. Just my 2 cents at the beginning of the day before I see the first patient and my ideals are blown....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 "So you don't believe that DMII can be controlled by diet/exercise? If you ever have had a patient control their diabetes with diet/exercise alone then you are practicing naturopathy." What a terrible example. We have studies showing the benefit of diet and exercise in controlling blood sugars. That isn't "alternative medicine," that's following standard treatment. When your DM type 2 comes in, who insists on only diet and exercise, with an A1C of 10, are you going to recommend anything more than diet and exercise or will you be too terrified of offending them? Your previous arguments have fallen flat. If you as a provider are too scared to tell your patient that their lifestyle choices are terrible (not because it's our personal belief, but because of that whole peer-reviewed science thing), than you are not helping your patients. What are you speaking of? I just made a comment about "sas" comments about naturopathy and not about patient care...he said naturopathy was snake oil and I was giving him an example of the definition of naturopathy. Yes those studies are about naturopathy...just because you have a study(s) doesn't mean it changes from naturopathy to Western Medicine...Please do yourself and your patients a service and look up the definition of naturopathy...You have went out in left field and putting words in my mouth. I am very blunt with my patients about diet and needing insulin with an A1C of 11.5, etc, but again I do not make fun of them as "sas" did in his comment about Steve...That is the difference and you need to understand that... There is a difference between putting something up your rectum vs choosing to die in peace and comfort...I hope you see the difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I spent many years in gerontology, nursing homes, and doing end of life care. I have always been an advocate for people making their own choices because I'm on the outside looking in. The kind of naturopathy I am talking about isn't weight loss for diabetes, exercise for a healthy heart etc. Lord knows I have spent many a frustrating hour trying to get patients to understand the impact they can have on their own health. I am talking about the outright quackery, the complete dismssal of reality and science, that passes for alternative medicine. If you are diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and want to just let it take its course until the end more power to you. I'll do what I can to keep you comfortable. If you want treatment and you completely disregard medical science for some herb you read about on the internet or coffee enemas or praying to xytulu the God of the Flying Spagetti monster because someone convinced you that was "natural" and therefor better...that is a problem as is the people who trade in this nonsense.I can't and won't respect your opinion by participating in it...worse tacitly endorsing it with my silence. I have a sister in law who wore a mask around her parents for a week because they got a flu shot and she didn't want to be "contaminated" by their vaccines. She is a moron and her opinions and behavior do not earn respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I spent many years in gerontology, nursing homes, and doing end of life care. I have always been an advocate for people making their own choices because I'm on the outside looking in. The kind of naturopathy I am talking about isn't weight loss for diabetes, exercise for a healthy heart etc. Lord knows I have spent many a frustrating hour trying to get patients to understand the impact they can have on their own health. I am talking about the outright quackery, the complete dismssal of reality and science, that passes for alternative medicine. If you are diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and want to just let it take its course until the end more power to you. I'll do what I can to keep you comfortable. If you want treatment and you completely disregard medical science for some herb you read about on the internet or coffee enemas or praying to xytulu the God of the Flying Spagetti monster because someone convinced you that was "natural" and therefor better...that is a problem as is the people who trade in this nonsense.I can't and won't respect your opinion by participating in it...worse tacitly endorsing it with my silence. I have a sister in law who wore a mask around her parents for a week because they got a flu shot and she didn't want to be "contaminated" by their vaccines. She is a moron and her opinions and behavior do not earn respect. We can agree with one another on some points! I do not participate in it sir, I just respect that persons decision to pray to the church of the flying spaghetti monster as that is their belief. This is no different than any other religion around the world (which I do not agree with all of them) as well as some christian denominations here in the states. Well your sister is about 1-2% correct if some of the vaccines were intranasal flu vaccines (LAIV). https://www.flumistquadrivalent.com/hcp/influenza-resources/flu-myths-vs-facts.html :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAAdmission Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 How do you feel about homeopathy, Camoman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 This is unfortunately a very real and very uncomfortable topic for me seeing as one of my best friends from college (the type that you end up standing up at their wedding for) is a "doctor" of naturopathy student. It's very, very, very hard to not challenge him in a way that doesn't ruin our friendship. The programs don't require an interview, don't require a standardized test for admission, don't require any major coursework in the sciences, etc. I just cannot take him seriously. It is actually amazing how much they've managed to re-program and re-socialize the kids in these programs. I remember him saying something to the effect of "Well an MD's residency is at least 4 years, but we do ours in 1 year. It's just so much more accelerated and we're required to learn so much more in a shorter amount of time". I just sat there with my mouth touching the floor. They also like to point to their curriculum and say they take the same classes... yeah, right. Cardiology taught by a chiropractor, neurology taught by a naturopathic doctor, pharmacology taught by a nurse. It's ridiculous and it's not safe. Jaundice was brought up in a conversation between him, myself, and his girlfriend (a nursing student). His response was, "uhhhh I can remember writing that down in my notes but I just can't remember what it is". Her and I just gave each other sad looks. How do you maintain that relationship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk732 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Cardiology taught by a chiropractor...what kind of adjustments do you do for someone having an MI with a 100% LAD occlusion? Or do you get someone to give an IV infusion tongue of salamander? What does a code look like in a naturopathic ER - do they do different CPR, use mind energy for defibrillation? Inquiring minds want to know... SK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ral Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 THAT is hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1234 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 How do you feel about homeopathy, Camoman? http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)67177-2/fulltext "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 “Good loses. Good always loses because good has to play by the rules. Evil doesn't.” ― Henry Mills This reminds me of the wise words of Dark Helmet "now you see that evil will always triumph' because good... Is dumb!" Hahaha Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Or, in its more popular paraphrase... "So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." --Dark Helmet Dang beat me to it! Lol Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I say: So is lightening, rattlesnake venom, botulism and most of the bacteria and virii that kill people.Death and illness are also natural... Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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