DPAM Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 we have discussed this before in other threads but I like the army/baylor model of granting a clinical doctorate after a residency completed by an MS level PA. a pa with a doctorate and specialty residency would have a better leg to stand on when asking for collaborative practice models and equivalent billing to others with this preparation. I agree with Emedpa. The baylor should be a model adapted by physician assistant schools. We have to move to a doctorate degree for many reasons. DNP are advertising that there degree is equal to MD and thus the public would prefer to be seen by either and look at PAs as an inferior quality. In addition, completing a year residency would improve the skills of a new graduate tremendously which would eliminate the perception among professional colleagues that PAs don't know what they are doing. But if the Baylor model is adapted then PA school must drop the bachelor requirement and allow students whom completed 90 credit hours to apply to these programs. That way it would take 6 years to complete including a paid residency year (40-60K). The only difference I would suggest that the residency should be in IM/FM then you can do an extra year if you want to specialize in emergency, surgery, derm, etc. That way all Pas will still graduate as generalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceBanner Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 ^^ Completely in agreement with your analysis and take on the issue. Is it fair to say that master level PA program is a scheme as well? Yes and no. I think 2+ years is necessary to get the essential didactics and clinical material, but a masters degree is just a nice touch at the end. I'm not sure it affects cost for students or brings schools any more money. All this prattle about "furthering the profession" is a farce. Let's call it what it is: DPAM, DNP, D...etc are just straw man doctorates. I do not think they will further the profession. They do not make us physicians, it just makes us look like we are trying to be. People want more professional recognition and respect, but an ala carte doctoral program is not a great way to go about it and ultimately is confusing to patients and other providers while making the pockets of academia runneth over. PAs are PAs and I don't think all the advocacy and degree changes in the world are going to change our scope significantly. Western healthcare needs bodies that can see patients and produce. Currently PAs and NPs are more cost effective than docs so that is where the trend is going for primary healthcare. A legitimate bridge program + residency that doesn't take 7 years would be---in my opinion---the best way to expediently expand the physician workforce and give PAs the satisfaction of going higher up on the food chain without doing it all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm7 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 The DPAM is essentially a 9 mo residency in the student's field of choice + a few concurrent didactic courses. there is also a fairly good chance that the student will receive a stipend for the clinical time, offsetting the added price for the degree. A nine month residency? As in it's more or less clinical in nature? Perhaps you have access to details about the program that I do not. The description on their website doesn't seem to describe a residency, as best as I can tell. Would love to be corrected if I'm wrong on that. Very curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 12, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 12, 2014 A nine month residency? As in it's more or less clinical in nature? Perhaps you have access to details about the program that I do not. The description on their website doesn't seem to describe a residency, as best as I can tell. Would love to be corrected if I'm wrong on that. Very curious. their site describes it as a "clinical fellowship". I have spoken with some folks there about this. the plan is a postgrad porgram which includes concurrent didactic coursework with clinical rotations in the student's field of choice for which they would most likely be paid a stipend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPAM Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 their site describes it as a "clinical fellowship". I have spoken with some folks there about this. the plan is a postgrad porgram which includes concurrent didactic coursework with clinical rotations in the student's field of choice for which they would most likely be paid a stipend. If that's the case then im totally for this program. It seems like its doing what baylor has already done. There should be bridge programs because there is no candidate on the face of the earth who is more qualified to be a medical doctor than a Pa. But these bridge programs would not help the Pa profession. Because it allows Pas to move from a Pa profession to the MD profession. These individuals would be part of the medical profession and they would advocate for medical profession because their livelihood is tied to it. Plus these bridge programs are always going to be under supervision of the medical body (whom are not too concerned of the Pa Profession). In addition, the whole purpose of these clinical doctorate degrees is to add necessary skills and experience to a physician assistant provider that would make him/her a superior clinician and would promote the notion that Pas don't need much supervision leading to the ultimate goal of collaboration and independence as well as respect from co professional workers. And patient would not feel like they are dealing with a less competent provider who is the only clinician without a doctorate degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 If that's the case then im totally for this program. It seems like its doing what baylor has already done. There should be bridge programs because there is no candidate on the face of the earth who is more qualified to be a medical doctor than a Pa. But these bridge programs would not help the Pa profession. Because it allows Pas to move from a Pa profession to the MD profession. These individuals would be part of the medical profession and they would advocate for medical profession because their livelihood is tied to it. Plus these bridge programs are always going to be under supervision of the medical body (whom are not too concerned of the Pa Profession). In addition, the whole purpose of these clinical doctorate degrees is to add necessary skills and experience to a physician assistant provider that would make him/her a superior clinician and would promote the notion that Pas don't need much supervision leading to the ultimate goal of collaboration and independence as well as respect from co professional workers. And patient would not feel like they are dealing with a less competent provider who is the only clinician without a doctorate degree.You're talking my talk. PA bridge BAD idea. Not going to fly. Talk about respect from co worker. This hit home. NP DNP in my practice w/ less clinical exp gets called the doctor abd i get called just the PA an assistant to doctor to be precise. Yes. Who's best to fight for out interest. A PA convert to MD? Not necessary. Maybe or maybe not. The lifestyle post convert from PA 2 MD is so great that one would forget about those of us still in the trench. You blame it on family commitment, other outside interest. Too busy to fight. Old age kicks in. AAPA leadership. Look closer. Most are too old, had being around too long, comfortable & throw their hands up easily. Wake up PAs!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm7 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 their site describes it as a "clinical fellowship". I have spoken with some folks there about this. the plan is a postgrad porgram which includes concurrent didactic coursework with clinical rotations in the student's field of choice for which they would most likely be paid a stipend. I see. I found it unclear from their website how much of the 9 months would be the clinical fellowship. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treejay Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Rush University PA program has a similar setup with a 9 month extended clerkship type training in the specialty of a student's choice. They are not awarding the doctorate however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 My fear is there will be two competing PA doctoral programs, an LE to DO bridge and the other MS to Doc of PA. Anyone else have a similar concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Concern? No. My bridge (LECOM Accelerated Physician Assistant Pathway) makes me a DO in 3 years. The residency will make me a fully licensed independent physician. The DPAM makes a doctoral PA. Still a PA. Listen, I'm very grateful for my PA career, but I outgrew it. I would like to see the profession expand and some form of independent licensure evolve for seasoned PAs. As time went on though I became less sure that would ever happen. I had an opportunity and I took it. I will graduate in 15 weeks and 2 days (who's counting? Lol). I recognize not everyone's lifestyle will allow them to go to medical school like I did but that's the only doctoral program that really hooked me. I looked at all kinds of options--DHSc, DrPH, PharmD--but what I really wanted was to be a physician. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalPA Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 And patient would not feel like they are dealing with a less competent provider who is the only clinician without a doctorate degree. I agree, the average patient would not want to be seen by a clinician that does not have a graduate degree. Hence the reason for the Masters level PA Degree. No matter what patients will compare PAs to NPs. What will happen when DNPs become the standard for NPs? Do they get access to more leadership positions because they have a "Doctorate" degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 13, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2014 What will happen when DNPs become the standard for NPs? Do they get access to more leadership positions because they have a "Doctorate" degree. they already have access to more leadership positions because they are nurses and nurses run hospitals.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Someone has mentioned here or elsewhere that the average # of credits in a PA master's program is about that same if not more than your average PhD. Yet we only get a Master's. I'm entering PA school with an interest in primary care medicine as my career and not a lot of interest of going for more school right afterwards. I want to practice. How about we all get together and give every PA with 15+ years of practice (in primary care) the disused title of General Practitioner (some kind of license to practice FM/primary only, completely unattached). That's incentive to stay in the field as a PA/eventual upward movement and reduced threat to docs since they no longer use it. PA to GP license :3 Sent from the Satellite of Love using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 13, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2014 works for me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Someone has mentioned here or elsewhere that the average # of credits in a PA master's program is about that same if not more than your average PhD. Yet we only get a Master's. I'm entering PA school with an interest in primary care medicine as my career and not a lot of interest of going for more school right afterwards. I want to practice. How about we all get together and give every PA with 15+ years of practice (in primary care) the disused title of General Practitioner (some kind of license to practice FM/primary only, completely unattached). That's incentive to stay in the field as a PA/eventual upward movement and reduced threat to docs since they no longer use it. PA to GP license :3 Sent from the Satellite of Love using Tapatalk Exactly. The PA education already fulfills the academic requirements for a doctorate. This 9 month program will further drive home a clinical doctorate. I just wish the name was different. I like DMP- Doctor of Medical Practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 works for me.... Now all that's required is an act of god. :) Sent from the Satellite of Love using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staplemyfoot Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I am excited for the future of our profession. Look forward to seeing the first masters to doctorate program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoRyou Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 History in the making Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Can someone please explain to me what the hell is "Physician Assistant Medicine??!?" Huh? Huh? anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 13, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2014 Can someone please explain to me what the hell is "Physician Assistant Medicine??!?" Huh? Huh? anyone? it's more medical than physician assistant studies.....:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes797 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 physician assistant studies is terrible. All masters programs should have master of medical science in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The DPAM is essentially a 9 mo residency in the student's field of choice + a few concurrent didactic courses. there is also a fairly good chance that the student will receive a stipend for the clinical time, offsetting the added price for the degree. Should those PAs who have already done a 1 year residency receive a 'grandfathered' doctorate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GetMeOuttaThisMess Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Here's another perspective. What do you do with the old folks like myself who didn't get the MS with their PA graduation but rather a BS? Do you allow these individuals to enroll in the Doctorate program just as a BS/BA in college allows one to enter medical school to obtain an M.D., bypassing the Masters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted February 13, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2014 Here's another perspective. What do you do with the old folks like myself who didn't get the MS with their PA graduation but rather a BS? Do you allow these individuals to enroll in the Doctorate program just as a BS/BA in college allows one to enter medical school to obtain an M.D., bypassing the Masters? nebraska bridge to MS then bridge to DMS (Doctorate of Medical Science) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discogenic Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Here's another perspective. What do you do with the old folks like myself who didn't get the MS with their PA graduation but rather a BS? Do you allow these individuals to enroll in the Doctorate program just as a BS/BA in college allows one to enter medical school to obtain an M.D., bypassing the Masters? I'd say that as long as you did whatever was required to become a licensed PA, then you should qualify to enter a Doctorate program. It's true that some would go from a Certificate to a Doctorate, but that's what you get when you have different standards in different states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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