LIPPER Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 A doctorate of PA studies won't solve an earlier problem posted here; working as a PA with Doctors Without Boarders.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted May 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 8, 2014 A doctorate of PA studies won't solve an earlier problem posted here; working as a PA with Doctors Without Boarders.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk true, although PAFT recently discovered that when DWB uses nps they use them as rn staff only... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes797 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Degree creep will be the death of us. MD/DO is the terminal degree in medicine and the logical route for PA's who wish to practice independently. We should concentrate our energy on promoting PA -> DO/MD bridge programs instead of carving out a separate doctorate program for PA's. I have no desire to be a "Dr. PA" and I would sooner leave the profession than go back to school for clinical doctorate. I agree. We should promote accelerated MD/DO bridge programs for PAs with years of experience. Not a Doctor of Physician Assistant Medicine. That name sounds like a joke. If a PA wants to get a doctorate and teach there are plenty of DHSc or PhD programs already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I would much rather see PA doctorates than bridge programs. I could easily see lesser medical schools looking to make extra bucks having shorter period higher cost bridge programs. It will cheapen the PA and MD degree. Id rather successful and smart PA's move into fields of medicine where they can have autonomy such as primary care, rural emergency medicine, internal medicine. The stud the profession was designed for and why I signed up. I do not want to see brain drawn of the PA Profession because he MD is "just 2 years" and "why not". I have no interest and do not want to be stuck sitting here with similar minded PAs and a lot of PAs who just could not go on to medical school bc they are unequipped. The profession should STAY CLEAR of bridge programs ... LECOM is fine and its a good option for some people .... but lets let it end with that program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 ^ On point. Yes. You can call DNP degree creep or whatever you choose to call it. Your next SP will be a DNP. We are losing the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceBanner Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I would sooner deliver pizza than work under a DNP. There are a lot of speculations and great ideas floating around here, but in all likelihood I think what will happen is nothing, for now. The AAPA and state professional organizations will pull their heads out of whatever deliberation fantasy they are in far too late, and the PA profession will be forced to adopt the "doctorate" degree farce just to remain viable. You can bet on it. Bridge programs sound good on paper but are difficult to standardize and I don't think there is enough interest in them to make them a real option. I think it's highly unlikely PAs will go "extinct" in our lifetimes, but I think we will be forced to make changes we don't really want to not only because of the NPs, but to remain viable in a healthcare system that will shift heavily towards using mid-levels as the go-to, drive-thru, we-take-all-comers PCPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 ^ On point. Yes. You can call DNP degree creep or whatever you choose to call it. Your next SP will be a DNP. We are losing the battle. How can DNPs supervise PAs when we are under BOM and they are BON? Maybe in the hospital one can have one as a "supervisor" but not as a "supervising physician." Sent from my Galaxy S4 Active using Tapatalk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 How can DNPs supervise PAs when we are under BOM and they are BON? Maybe in the hospital one can have one as a "supervisor" but not as a "supervising physician." Sent from my Galaxy S4 Active using Tapatalk. OK. I talk fast than I write. Via legislation via army of NPs lobbyist via pushing there agenda through and entrenching into hospitals bylaw. I worked in a larger medical academic Ctr. Here's what is happening. DNP commands more salary irrespective of their years of experience in comparison with their PAs counterpart. Why? Because the way salary are determine by the hospital system are base on level of education (BS vs MS vs doctorate), -/+ years in practice plus years working w/in the hospital etc. I provides coverage at another outpt facilities where I'm being force to report to a DNP. why? Because this person has a doctorate in nursing. They care less that I've being a PA longer than the DNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I would sooner deliver pizza than work under a DNP. There are a lot of speculations and great ideas floating around here, but in all likelihood I think what will happen is nothing, for now. The AAPA and state professional organizations will pull their heads out of whatever deliberation fantasy they are in far too late, and the PA profession will be forced to adopt the "doctorate" degree farce just to remain viable. You can bet on it. Bridge programs sound good on paper but are difficult to standardize and I don't think there is enough interest in them to make them a real option. I think it's highly unlikely PAs will go "extinct" in our lifetimes, but I think we will be forced to make changes we don't really want to not only because of the NPs, but to remain viable in a healthcare system that will shift heavily towards using mid-levels as the go-to, drive-thru, we-take-all-comers PCPs. With respect to your first sentence. No you won't! Working as a pizza delivery guy can't pay for your 100+K students loan or other mounting debts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 OK. I talk fast than I write. Via legislation via army of NPs lobbyist via pushing there agenda through and entrenching into hospitals bylaw. I worked in a larger medical academic Ctr. Here's what is happening. DNP commands more salary irrespective of their years of experience in comparison with their PAs counterpart. Why? Because the way salary are determine by the hospital system are base on level of education (BS vs MS vs doctorate), -/+ years in practice plus years working w/in the hospital etc. I provides coverage at another outpt facilities where I'm being force to report to a DNP. why? Because this person has a doctorate in nursing. They care less that I've being a PA longer than the DNP. Is this NP your SP? That sounds illegal unless the DNP was a manager/superviso. I dont get how that works becaus SPs have to be MD/DOs unless I missed something. Sent from my Galaxy S4 Active using Tapatalk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator True Anomaly Posted May 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 8, 2014 I provides coverage at another outpt facilities where I'm being force to report to a DNP. why? Because this person has a doctorate in nursing. They care less that I've being a PA longer than the DNP. And how, legally, does a DNP supervise your medical care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 ^ it's illegal. This place is one of my PT gig. There's an MD but only plays supporting role who's mostly not on site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted May 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 8, 2014 ^ it's illegal. This place is one of my PT gig. There's an MD but only plays supporting role who's mostly not on site. I wouldn't do it. I would either demand an md supervisor or refuse to work there. if they are just the head midlevel" and only write the schedule, etc that is fine. but if they review and oversee your care that is illegal and inconsistent with pa practice guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Agree with E. Absolutely a non-starter if that DNP is reviewing your clinical work and recommending treatment in the absence of an actual supervising PHYSICIAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 ^^ Fighting it. Not going to happen. I've being a PA for 7+ yrs & the DNP almost 4+ yrs or less (total yrs as an MLP). Guess the folks forcing that I reports to the DNP? The nonclinical folks who only sees or hears the words doctorate (DNP). Hence, I'm for a push for doctorate in PA w/ DHSc an option. Not a big fan for a bridge program but won't strike it down either. May or may not pursue bridge program in the future. IMHO. The bridge program erode the core foundation of the entire profession and disrupt the integrity of the PA profession. We've got to stay as PAs and fight for a better scope of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physasst Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I'd report it to the board of medicine. I don't care what the admin thinks....having you report clinically to a DNP is against the law. As far as delivering pizzas, hell yeah, I would. But then, I have less than 10k in student loans for all my degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 ^^ Fighting it. Not going to happen. I've being a PA for 7+ yrs & the DNP almost 4+ yrs or less (total yrs as an MLP). Guess the folks forcing that I reports to the DNP? The nonclinical folks who only sees or hears the words doctorate (DNP). Hence, I'm for a push for doctorate in PA w/ DHSc an option. Not a big fan for a bridge program but won't strike it down either. May or may not pursue bridge program in the future. IMHO. The bridge program erode the core foundation of the entire profession and disrupt the integrity of the PA profession. We've got to stay as PAs and fight for a better scope of pra a bridge program would not "erode" our profession, it would strengthen it and strengthen the MD profession. It is the only logical course for the profession to mature, any other doctorate will lead to whithering and death. as for you allowing a NP to be your SP you should be stripped of your license and barred from ever practicing medicine in the future. You having an NP in place of a SP is criminal and for a good reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gleannfia Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I don't understand the panic. There are still plenty of opportunities for experienced PAs. In fact, most MDs I know prefer to work with PAs, not NPs. Every day, my email box is full of opportunities. Sure, they may not be in the location we want or near family. I still can't find a decent opportunity in my native Cleveland but that's OK. There are plenty of places in the country that are looking for us. Right now, I am doing locums until I figure out where I want my last permanent job to be. And believe me, there is a plethora of work in this venue as well. Oh, by the way, every single locums assignment I have completed has resulted in a permanent job offer. I am totally against Dsc or other doctorate unless the individual pursues it for the sake of education. If I do *any* further degree it will be a bridge program to MD. But hey, if you guys want to go in debt, be my guest. One only needs to look at all of the 22 year olds coming out of school up to their eyeballs in debt to think twice about more schooling. Tuition ain't cheap, and I, for one, will not be a party to degree creep. Fortunately, it is highly unlikely I will need to. There are a lot of sick patients out there, and regardless of whether you like Obama or the ACA, the net result will be more customers. How many, remains to be seen. From my experience, some people will not seek medical care even if they have the best insurance. Please people, chill out and take heart. I believe that we are in the catbird seat as a profession. I am not a Pollyanna by any means. But I think the future is far rosier that what has been painted on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I know several of the hospitals around me do not hire NPs as a policy. They do, however, hire PAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 DNP commands more salary irrespective of their years of experience in comparison with their PAs counterpart. Why? Because the way salary are determine by the hospital system are base on level of education (BS vs MS vs doctorate), -/+ years in practice plus years working w/in the hospital etc. Then it makes more $$ sense to the institution to hire a PA, assuming 1) your facility believes there is parity between the two (they get the same level of productivity/quality between an urgent care PA or NP, or a nephrology PA or NP, EM PA or NP etc 2) HR is not being strongarmed by a nursing agenda within the instituton's leadership. Nursing degree creep means more nurses in influential positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andersenpa Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I know several of the hospitals around me do not hire NPs as a policy. They do, however, hire PAs. What is their reason for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 What is their reason for this? I haven't heard the official reason directly from the hospital HR, but one of their employees who is a PA indicates that the supervising physicians don't feel comfortable with the training and education of NPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primadonna22274 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I haven't heard the official reason directly from the hospital HR, but one of their employees who is a PA indicates that the supervising physicians don't feel comfortable with the training and education of NPs.Darn good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 . as for you allowing a NP to be your SP you should be stripped of your license and barred from ever practicing medicine in the future. You having an NP in place of a SP is criminal and for a good reason You must be kidding me. I finds your statement unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Then it makes more $$ sense to the institution to hire a PA, assuming 1) your facility believes there is parity between the two (they get the same level of productivity/quality between an urgent care PA or NP, or a nephrology PA or NP, EM PA or NP etc 2) HR is not being strongarmed by a nursing agenda within the instituton's leadership. Nursing degree creep means more nurses in influential positions. You would think so. Powerful lobbying within the system. We are out numbered. You finds them everywhere (HR & in administration etc). I agreed that "Nursing degree creep means more nurses in influential position." That's exactly my point. We are falling behind here. Others had done it (PharmD, DPT, and DNP). What the heck are we waiting for? I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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