New Doctor of Physician Assistant Medicine Program

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

nebraska bridge to MS

then bridge to DMS (Doctorate of Medical Science)

Why would I want to MS bridge first in this scenario?  Bypass the MS bridge and go straight to the doctorate.  As I've commented in other threads, the only benefit of a MS bridge is to provide more revenue to the program itself, as well as to appease those employers that from a credentialing perspective want to play the degree creep game.  I'm not sure that I would pick up anything with the course work that would help me in a one-on-one situation with a pt. in front of me c/o of a sore throat for example after thirty years.  BTW, there is a much cheaper alternative I found through my former program at a satellite location that they have than what Nebraska or anyone else for that matter, offers, at least that I've been able to find.

[Joelseff]

it's more medical than physician assistant studies.....:)

I just foresee another name-change proposal in a few years (half kidding).

 

Given our history, the Lynchburg people should be very careful and specific with the details of this program. It seems they are just slapping it together just to get it out. Half baked or not.

 

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[wjm7]

I don't see any reason why a BS to doctorate transition would be unreasonable.  It's very common for people to enter doctorate programs in other fields with only a bachelor's degree.

[Joelseff]

Why would I want to MS bridge first in this scenario? Bypass the MS bridge and go straight to the doctorate. As I've commented in other threads, the only benefit of a MS bridge is to provide more revenue to the program itself, as well as to appease those employers that from a credentialing perspective want to play the degree creep game. I'm not sure that I would pick up anything with the course work that would help me in a one-on-one situation with a pt. in front of me c/o of a sore throat for example after thirty years. BTW, there is a much cheaper alternative I found through my former program at a satellite location that they have than what Nebraska, or anyone else for that matter, offers, at least that I've been able to find.

I did a MS bridge program. It has its merits and the clinical portion did expand on what I learned in PA school. I wouldnt totally discount it as degree creep (though I agree a lot of it is that). And I would agree it isnt absolutely necessary either. It was what we made it. Some of my classmates skated just to get the paper.

 

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[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

From the "old man" perspective, I thought even back in the early '80's that they should have been MS programs from the get go.  Baylor was the only one of the three in Texas that was at that particular time (but also much more $$$ since they are a private university).

[DPAM]

I like the title. Even though it should be doctorate in physician associate medicine. Meaning an individual who has a doctorate in practicing medicine as a physician associate like doctorate of dental medicine. But more important than than the title is what does the title entail. It had to be a clinical doctorate where you must do a year of residency in certain specialty after you finish your pa school. This will make a newly graduating pa a superior clinician that demand respect from coworkers and patient due to his/her clinical knowledge. This will eventually lead to an assumption that any newly graduating pa will be dependent that don't need much supervision.

[PACdan]

I like the title. Even though it should be doctorate in physician associate medicine. Meaning an individual who has a doctorate in practicing medicine as a physician associate like doctorate of dental medicine.

This is not analogous at all. A DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine) is just a Latin rearrangement of DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery) they are both doctors from 4+ year medical dental programs.

 

 

 

 

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[Joelseff]

I like the title. Even though it should be doctorate in physician associate medicine. Meaning an individual who has a doctorate in practicing medicine as a physician associate like doctorate of dental medicine. But more important than than the title is what does the title entail. It had to be a clinical doctorate where you must do a year of residency in certain specialty after you finish your pa school. This will make a newly graduating pa a superior clinician that demand respect from coworkers and patient due to his/her clinical knowledge. This will eventually lead to an assumption that any newly graduating pa will be dependent that don't need much supervision.

Lol Doctorate in Physician Associate Medicine is just as bad. I think the DMS or DMP are more appropriate. Thats why I prefaced my post with "given our history." Why define it with the profession's title vs what it really is? MD/DO dont get Doctorates in Physician Medicine?

What exactly is it that we would learn from this program? Isnt it the practice and/or science of medicine? What the heck is Physician Assistant/Associate medicine anyway? A different type medicine that docs practice? The title is weak. I not against a doctorate but lets get it right so we wont have to clean it up later.

 

(All this is moot anyway as the program is only available to Lynchburg MS grads)

 

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[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

I understand Joel...."Ain't nobody got time for this". ;)

[discogenic]

Lol Doctorate in Physician Associate Medicine is just as bad. I think the DMS or DMP are more appropriate. Thats why I prefaced my post with "given our history." Why define it with the profession's title vs what it really is? MD/DO dont get Doctorates in Physician Medicine? What exactly is it that we would learn from this program? Isnt it the practice and/or science of medicine? What the heck is Physician Assistant/Associate medicine anyway? A different type medicine that docs practice? The title is weak. I not against a doctorate but lets get it right so we wont have to clean it up later. (All this is moot anyway as the program is only available to Lynchburg MS grads) Sent by my Samsung S4 Active via Tapatalk

Moot for the moment.  But if the idea takes off, many schools will be offering 'degree completion' Doctoral programs.  See PT profession.

[PACdan]

Moot for the moment. But if the idea takes off, many schools will be offering 'degree completion' Doctoral programs. See PT profession.

I really hope not. I just want to get my master's and start practicing.

 

 

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[DPAM]

This is not analogous at all. A DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine) is just a Latin rearrangement of DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery) they are both doctors from 4+ year medical dental programs.

 

 

 

 

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title name is not that important as long its unified among all pa schools.

[PACdan]

title name is not that important as long its unified among all pa schools.

You compared two doctorates which are not analogous. PAs practice medicine, yet even a PA with a Doctorate is not an MD/DO. You compared that to a DMD. A Dentist, the highest form of those practicing dental medicine. DMD is an MD in the field of dental med, not a DocPA.

 

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

 

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[Joelseff]

title name is not that important as long its unified among all pa schools.

 

Again, "given our history," titles are VERY important, at least to 6500 PAs a couple of years ago....

 

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[mashlee]

This topic is very interesting to me, as i'll be starting PA school in spring and I worry/ am excited about the future of the career. I can understand how almost everyone would be against a Doctorate degree if nothing changes, but if most programs switch to doctorates, wouldn't that help out the career? I mean if we're trying to lobby to practice independently like NPs, then wouldn't having a doctorate add strength to our argument? I also feel like we would get more respect by having a doctorate (the respect may take time though). I know that physical therapist in many states used to struggle with being required to have all patients they saw referred by a physician. Around the same time they started switching to a doctorate degree, PTs started being able to take walk-in appointments which significantly helped the career grown. I'm for a doctorate change.

[PA-A(spiring)]

this is interesting and totally worth it if it comes with great benefits. 

[rcreek]

This topic is very interesting to me, as i'll be starting PA school in spring and I worry/ am excited about the future of the career. I can understand how almost everyone would be against a Doctorate degree if nothing changes, but if most programs switch to doctorates, wouldn't that help out the career? I mean if we're trying to lobby to practice independently like NPs, then wouldn't having a doctorate add strength to our argument? I also feel like we would get more respect by having a doctorate (the respect may take time though). I know that physical therapist in many states used to struggle with being required to have all patients they saw referred by a physician. Around the same time they started switching to a doctorate degree, PTs started being able to take walk-in appointments which significantly helped the career grown. I'm for a doctorate change.

 

I also start my program this spring. I will keep my eye on this over the next couple years, and evaluate the pros and cons of pursuing my education further come graduation/PANCE time.

 

I wonder how many PAs in academia may end up going this route, especially since so many of them already pursue the DHSc.

 

[EMEDPA]

historically 4-5% of PAs go on the get a doctorate (MD/DO/PhD/DHSc/JD/PsyD, etc) at some point in their careers.

[primadonna22274]

historically 4-5% of PAs go on the get a doctorate (MD/DO/PhD/DHSc/JD/PsyD, etc) at some point in their careers.

It's gotta be more than that, since the last AAPA data I heard quoted (2010-ish) was that 4-5% of PAs go on to medical school...plenty of other doctorates beyond MD/DO.

[PACProvider]

After reading this thread, I am left with the question "Why are PAs willing to do so much in return for so litte?"

 

It seems as if there is a generally held belief that a doctorate will convince our MD masters that we are trustworthy. The desire of the MD community to keep a choke hold on the PA has nothing to do with competency. It is entirely about money. If PAs gain independence, MDs lose the money they are making on the backs of PAs. To prevent that financial loss, MDs scream fire in a crowded movie theater. In essence, they create fear by saying patient safety is at risk without having physician ownership of the PA. We shouldn't mince words. PAs have become the equivalent of 18th century house negro. Freedom (autonomy) is a threat to the prosperity of the plantation owners. 

 

Surprisingly, Nurse Practitioners have achieved independence WITHOUT A DOCTORATE. The reason NPs are winning out and we are losing is not about competence. IT is only about clout. They have it and we don't.

 

Any further training for PAs beyond our medical school programs and PANCE must be optional. We are already in a position to have independence. 

[skyblu]

I'm not against a doctorate, at all. I'm against a doctorate in "physician assistant medicine", because it sounds bogus, and because doctorates in medicine already exist.

[rcreek]

... "physician assistant medicine", because it sounds bogus ...

 

It does sound bogus. What does it even mean? PAs don't practice their own special brand of medicine.

[skyblu]

It does sound bogus. What does it even mean? PAs don't practice their own special brand of medicine.

Exactly! "Look, I'm a doctor. But not of medicine-medicine. Just physician assistant medicine."

[discogenic]

After reading this thread, I am left with the question "Why are PAs willing to do so much in return for so litte?"

 

It seems as if there is a generally held belief that a doctorate will convince our MD masters that we are trustworthy. The desire of the MD community to keep a choke hold on the PA has nothing to do with competency. It is entirely about money. If PAs gain independence, MDs lose the money they are making on the backs of PAs. To prevent that financial loss, MDs scream fire in a crowded movie theater. In essence, they create fear by saying patient safety is at risk without having physician ownership of the PA. We shouldn't mince words. PAs have become the equivalent of 18th century house negro. Freedom (autonomy) is a threat to the prosperity of the plantation owners. 

 

Surprisingly, Nurse Practitioners have achieved independence WITHOUT A DOCTORATE. The reason NPs are winning out and we are losing is not about competence. IT is only about clout. They have it and we don't.

 

Any further training for PAs beyond our medical school programs and PANCE must be optional. We are already in a position to have independence. 

 

And the fact that they have their own Board.

[didymus]

I'm not sure if someone proposed this already--if so, forgive the redundancy of my post.

 

I think it would be incredibly beneficial for a doctorate for PA's to essentially be the "other two years" of medical school curricula. As it stands now--and as we all know--PA's take what is effectively, two years of medical school (same coursework, same clinical rotations); if there is going to be a doctorate degree offered, why not make it so PA'a complete the remaining two years of medical school? PA's with lots of years of clinical practice( >5 years) already have an equivalent or greater level of clinical knowledge than residents at various levels, so if the PA could then complete the extra year of didactics and the extra year of rotations, we would see a huge boost for the profession.

 

I did read a few people suggesting a DMSc. (medical science), and I could also see it being called a DCM (clinical medicine). Doing this would also open up more creative avenues for bridge programs. I mean, have these PA programs add in Step I and II CK/CS for completion, or something. This last point is definitely a stretch, but I think it is completely feasible to add in the other 2 years of medical school curricula to gain the DMSc./DCM designation.

 

Thoughts?