mk1477 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 For females who want families to go PA, it makes some sense sense they may come out financially better in the long run sense they take so much time off. NOT that PAs have better hours. I also see this as a viable career for those with already significant debt and can't put off making money for so many years. I'm not talking about your measly 40k student loan debt, but people who needed money yesterday. For those who go PA because they are less competitive GPA wise, it isn't a huge leap to go a couple points up in GPA and go DO with grade replacement. It'll take you just as long to get quality HCE as it would to raise that GPA. Now you may say I don't believe HCE is necessary, and I'll say fine. I believe there should be mandatory residencies for everyone but family practice PAs (optional for then) anyway. ::takes deep breath:: And to those who want to handle less complex patients. I don't want you anywhere near my profession. I, and mostly others with more clout than me, have a hard enough time trying to advance this profession/promote it without the significant population of PAs that just want easy street and worry about upsetting the doctor by taking the "scawy" patients. I'm sorry the civilian world doesn't have an equivalent position to see aches and sniffles, but when I hear "I just want to see simple patients," I process it as "I have no real passion for medicine and am using this as a stable paycheck in a rough economy. My SP can make me his whipping boy if he wants for 80k/year. I will never give you money/vocal support to advance this profession. At worst I'll actively be against you, at best I'll be silent. So my silence will seem to be agreement when the name change doesn't pass, or when we try to change the wording from supervising to collaborating." ::gasps for air from rant and steps off soap box:: Why are you exaggerating? Calm down, you pretty much took my comment and interpreted it the wrong way as a personal attack. I never said "I wanted to be a lazy bum all day and handle easy problems..." All I'm saying is, as a benefit, during my first years as a physician assistant who's still learning, I can handle less complex cases, and if I ever stumble across a harder case, or if I have difficulty trying to solve and diagnose a patient, I have the supervising physician as a back-up who can offer a second opinion. And still work side by side and learn from this physician to be able to tackle similar difficult medical cases myself in the future and learn to further my independence on the doctor. Everyone becomes stronger as experience and time progresses. That's all. The attitude wasn't needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Again... Obtuseness is getting in the way. Apparently your extensive knowledge and experience in healthcare didn't allow you to recognize/realize that EVERYTHING you claim to be a advantage is also standard practice for PHYSICIANs. No one practices in a vacum... When MDs/DOs 'stumble across a harder case, or have difficulty trying to solve and diagnose a patient, they have the other physicians as a back-up who can offer a second opinion. And still work side by side and learn from these physicians to be able to tackle similar difficult medical cases themselves in the future and learn to further their INdependence'.. This happens in residency (first yearsas a provider) and continues to happen for their entire career. Many even consult PAs occasionally about cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1477 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 My bad, I meant "independence"* Either way, there are other reasons why I chose PA over MD: cost-effective, shorter route, family, typically has less administrative responsibilities, switching between different specialties, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2012 I'm cool as a cucumber. No attitude. You're going to need tougher skin for being a PA, my friend. It's likely you're going to be talked down to by so many people over the course of your career (not necessarily MDs) you'll think you were hit by Wayne Szalinski's shrink ray. This is just something I feel compelled to say because I see people entering the profession everyday and think "Yep, there goes someone who wants things like they are and not what they could be for PAs." But let's breakdown your statements. ^Right? I don't care what anyone says, I'm NOT going to med school, period. They make it seem like going to med school is THAT simple... the two professions are similar, but they still carry different responsibilities that should be acknowledged. It's not the stress of the schooling; however being a doctor is LONGER (4 years of med school + years of residency, etc.) and PA school is definitely shorter and cost effective. Either way, it's more of the job responsibility that I'll carry is what matters the most: I feel so much comfortable working under the supervision of someone who I can turn to, in case, for additional feedback, decision-making and verification over a patient's health. One advantage of being PA: most of the time, you handle LESS COMPLEX cases, while you leave the harder, more difficult medical complaints to the doctors. So you say multiple times that you want less responsibility. Then you say you want less complex cases and leave the hard stuff for the doc. What am I supposed to think? I can't think you'll support removing supervision requirements for collaborative ones, since that would give you more responsibility. Secondly, you will be just as responsible. As a PA practicing medicine, you will be held to the Gold standard. You won't be forgiven for making a mistake anymore than the MD. Why are you exaggerating? Calm down, you pretty much took my comment and interpreted it the wrong way as a personal attack. I never said "I wanted to be a lazy bum all day and handle easy problems..." All I'm saying is, as a benefit, during my first years as a physician assistant who's still learning, I can handle less complex cases, and if I ever stumble across a harder case, or if I have difficulty trying to solve and diagnose a patient, I have the supervising physician as a back-up who can offer a second opinion. And still work side by side and learn from this physician to be able to tackle similar difficult medical cases myself in the future and learn to further my dependence on the doctor. Everyone becomes stronger as experience and time progresses. That's all. The attitude wasn't needed. Insert resident for the physician assistant here and you have the same thing. Difference being a MD can become truly independent. This is why we offer advice for 20 yo to go MD. Also, was that a Freudian slip about furthering your dependence on the doctor? ;) So where am I exaggerating? You want less responsibility, less complexity. You say PA is cost effective (much less so than MD by the way), so have to assume money is somewhat on you'r mind. I just can't see you wanting to advance this profession. Am I wrong? Do you like it where things are, or do you think we should have a new name and more autonomy. Not independence, but move away from supervision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2012 My bad, I meant "independence"* Either way, there are other reasons why I chose PA over MD: cost-effective, shorter route, family, etc. Two out of the 3 are false when comparing to MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1477 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Yes, physician assistant school is cost-effective: less tuition and fees, compared to MD. And yes, why wouldn't I be smart with how I handle my money? I can save money and still practice what I love to do: medicine. "TWO of the 3 are false when comparing to MD...." Hmmmm.... are you saying that PA isn't a shorter route? That's TRUE. Family: the quicker I can graduate from professional school, the faster I can start a family. ALSO, switching between specialties is a big plus. These are icing on the cake as to why I chose being a PA. But to answer your question, I don't really have a problem with the way the profession is right now. However, the title, "assistant" does bother me a bit, because other than surgery, I don't assist anyone, like some medical assistant. I see my own patients, prescribe medicine, order charts, etc. So I approve the name change, only to make sure it matches up with my actual duties because typically, I don't assist anyone. I like "physician associate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2012 In the end, the increase in MD salary far exceeds the cost need to put in. One study showed that females who take time off for family come out financially better when doing PA, but they are it. So you have to put children off for 2 years. My parents had both me and my sister in their residency. It can be done without terrible strain. Then you hire a PA or work part time making the same as a pa with fewer hours and have more time with that family. Specialty switching is a plus and hope it sticks around, but is likely to disappear in many specialties as residencies increase, the new CAQ exam will become basically become standard for getting a job. Already see it cropping up in ads, 5 years experience or residency required with CAQ. ETA: I'm glad we agree on the name issue, but the fact if your SP drops dead, you are immediately unable to practice. This ruins lives. Even more, the nature of a doc being liable for our work (not that we aren't liable) is ridiculous and gives a significant advantage to NPs who can't point the finger at the doc if something goes wrong. The language also furthers to confuse legislators when making reimbursement laws so we get left out if things like ACA and put in as after thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muchi Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Being a 22 year old myself, I chose PA over MD for several reasons. Most important was my family. Being the eldest, I don't have many years to spend in school so the shorter schooling route was a huge advantage. But in all my interviews, I noticed a trend that people my age were in the minority. In one interview, I was the youngest person there by far. And I do understand why this is happening; they want people who already have experience working in the health care field. My inquiry to all of you fine people is: how big of a factor is the salary for you guys? Was paying back the debt of PA school manageable with the salaries PAs make? Right now, I put very little emphasis on the money aspect. Yes, PA pays well but that is not why I chose the profession. I think there's more to life than a two initials after my name and how fat my paycheck is. Is this being too naive and idealistic? Any opinions are appreciated (dont worry, I am used to taking criticism haha). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2012 Salary is only as important to me that I can pay my loans, which shouldn't be hard with public service IBR, paying for a decent living for my family and save for my kids college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk1477 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 In the end, the increase in MD salary far exceeds the cost need to put in. One study showed that females who take time off for family come out financially better when doing PA, but they are it. So you have to put children off for 2 years. My parents had both me and my sister in their residency. It can be done without terrible strain. Then you hire a PA or work part time making the same as a pa with fewer hours and have more time with that family. Specialty switching is a plus and hope it sticks around, but is likely to disappear in many specialties as residencies increase, the new CAQ exam will become basically become standard for getting a job. Already see it cropping up in ads, 5 years experience or residency required with CAQ. I understand what you're saying, however, I strongly believe you can't guarantee anyone on what kind of salary they'll have in their future especially when the economy is a rollercoaster. Most physicians come out of medical school with more than $175,000 in debt from student loans... they make a salary of $170,000+. For physician assistants, the total cost of the entire program is around $50-70,000, yet they have starting salaries of $70,000+. It appears to me, proportionally, they're the same... when it comes to cost, being a physician is not necessarily better than the being a physician assistant. Yes, MD make more money, but they NEED to. As for family planning, I think it's better to finish graduate school completely in two years, and then have children before 30, instead of taking years off in between the long process of medical schooling and residency. As a female, the biological clock should never be underestimated. I like to accomplish one big goal at a time: school, then establish career, then children, etc. and in the end, I'm doing what's best for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cac4488 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I agree with mk. I think a huge issue deciding between these professions, as a woman, is family planning. I think you can be a doctor and have kids as a female, but you need to have planned WAY ahead. If you figured things out just a few years late, I think PA is a great option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2012 I understand what you're saying, however, I strongly believe you can't guarantee anyone on what kind of salary they'll have in their future especially when the economy is a rollercoaster. Most physicians come out of medical school with more than $175,000 in debt from student loans... they make a salary of $170,000+. For physician assistants, the total cost of the entire program is around $50-70,000, yet they have starting salaries of $70,000+. It appears to me, proportionally, they're the same... when it comes to cost, being a physician is not necessarily better than the being a physician assistant. Yes, MD make more money, but they NEED to. As for family planning, I think it's better to finish graduate school completely in two years, and then have children before 30, instead of taking years off in between the long process of medical schooling and residency. As a female, the biological clock should never be underestimated. I like to accomplish one big goal at a time: school, then establish career, then children, etc. and in the end, I'm doing what's best for me. As my dad would say "if that's what you think is best, and only you can know that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 25, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2012 agree with TA (above POST #20). the sickest patients are the most interesting and enjoyable because you can make a major difference with interventions. I'm lucky if I see one pt/shift that I can have a major impact on. treating uti's and ankle sprains all day long gets really old really fast. in my last shift I saw 26 pts. one of those 26 ( a child with status seizures) was fun and interesting. the rest were very run of the mill stuff. I need a little excitement at work or I get really bored, really quickly. to the OP, good choice on getting experience as a medic before pa school. you will be glad you did. most of us "old timers" here have more of a problem with inexperience than age. I'm fine with a 25-30 yr old medic/rn/rt deciding to go to pa school. it's the 22 yr old who has never had a job or lived away from home that we have a problem with. life experience, as well as health care experience, is vitally important. As to the "having kids issue"- there are MANY women who have kids in med school and residency. it is definitely doable. at my first job there was an fp residency there and one of the residents had a baby/yr duiring residency and graduated on time with her class. probably couldn't do this in a surgical field but very doable for primary care which is basically 1 tough yr(internship) then 2 not so tough years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 26, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 26, 2012 really depends on your job. lots of pa's in primary care and em pa's do EXACTLY the same job as the docs they work with. I am sitting next to a doc at work right now and we are alternating charts regardless of acuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Most physicians come out of medical school with more than $175,000 in debt from student loans... they make a salary of $170,000+. For physician assistants, the total cost of the entire program is around $50-70,000, yet they have starting salaries of $70,000+. It appears to me, proportionally, they're the same... when it comes to cost, being a physician is not necessarily better than the being a physician assistant. Yes, MD make more money, but they NEED to. This is under the assumption that all they are paying for is the program and cost of living is provided out of pocket. Or they attended a state school (MS or AS) and most of living is included. If a person is relying on loans to support them, add about 9k per semester to that total:saddd: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 You can talk all you want about how you understand that PA school is hard. You won't truly get just how hard until you are IN PA school. I don't regret my decision to go to PA school, but I can see the advantages of med school now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystaltide Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 I also see this as a viable career for those with already significant debt and can't put off making money for so many years. I'm not talking about your measly 40k student loan debt, but people who needed money yesterday. This was one of my major reasons. Thanks for pointing it out. Not sure how many other people are in similar situations, but debt plus foreseeing a need to take care of my parents in the next couple years were definitely part of my decision to finish school quickly. I'm 25 now and will be just turning 26 when I start my program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItRainsItPours Posted December 26, 2012 Author Share Posted December 26, 2012 Wow I didn't mean to start an argument! I appreciate the established guys for sharing their experiences. And for the pre-PA's defending their stance. And to EMEDPA I got the idea for going medic first from you, some college students do still listen... Occasionally :heheh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItRainsItPours Posted December 26, 2012 Author Share Posted December 26, 2012 But I have to say I'm excited to be apart of this community here and to one day be a provider in this profession. The advice from the career guys was very eye opening and helps me be realistic about my choice. One of the things I'll take away from this discussion is oneal saying you need to have a thick skin. I think I can do that, my mom always said it's easy to get a bruised ego in medicine, but as long as you did your absolute best for your patient then you get to hold your head high. And rev ronin and EMEDPA did a good job of illustrating the frustration of PA's with lots of experience, perhaps it's not always as romantic as we'd like it to be but I think I can live with that. There are family reasons why I've chosen this path (older parents and reluctance to potentially leave them for 7 years) but a mans got to make sacrifices. Thanks guy, awesome read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderlustPA Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 I think there's a lot of rather pointless debate here over a decision that is highly personal. For most that come to this forum to ask advice, I think the best advice is to make your own decision. You should NEVER do something just because the majority of people you asked told you to. To the OP, I believe that most of those giving advice are simply stating what THEY would do. That doesn't mean it would be the same for you. If I were 22, I think I'd still go the PA route. One thing I know about myself is that new challenges are always the most exciting, so I can definitely see myself working in a few different specialties over the course of my career. It just wouldn't make sense to have to do a 3-5 year residency every time I switched. I'm sure if you talked to enough doctors, you'd find some that truly want to switch to another specialty, but feel stuck because they can't afford to take the huge pay cut for 3-5 years to learn a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Steve Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 I think there's a lot of rather pointless debate here over a decision that is highly personal. For most that come to this forum to ask advice, I think the best advice is to make your own decision. You should NEVER do something just because the majority of people you asked told you to. To the OP, I believe that most of those giving advice are simply stating what THEY would do. That doesn't mean it would be the same for you. If I were 22, I think I'd still go the PA route. One thing I know about myself is that new challenges are always the most exciting, so I can definitely see myself working in a few different specialties over the course of my career. It just wouldn't make sense to have to do a 3-5 year residency every time I switched. I'm sure if you talked to enough doctors, you'd find some that truly want to switch to another specialty, but feel stuck because they can't afford to take the huge pay cut for 3-5 years to learn a new one. The OP asked for other opinions so I am failing to see how the debate/discussion is pointless. You may not agree with what is posted and that is ok, but to dismiss the conversation, when it was asked for, is a bit myopic. Granted, no one person can crawl inside the mind of another and give them perfect direction tailor fit for their personal situation but social media, forums, conventions are all widely used methods for asking for other opinions and sharing of their own. Gathering other experiences and points of view is a whole lot like, well it is, research. We practice medicine based on what the majority of other people have done, even though your patient may not fit the exact demographic that the evidence based recommendations were formed upon. I don't see it being a far stretch for people who are less experienced at life and the career pathways of the medical world to ask "what gives?" as for speciality jumping, I think CAQs and the momentum of PA residencies are going to find PAs going back to training mode within the next several years if they want to change specialties. Of course that is my opinion and you didn't ask for it, but I bring the point up for consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelle Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 I'm glad I got a chance to read through this thread and similar ones on the forum. As a recent college graduate, ATC, and current graduate student in Sports Medicine, I wanted to take some time off before starting PA school to see if it was really something that I wanted to do. After working alongside MDs, PAs, and a myriad of other providers, I've come to realize that becoming an Ortho PA is something that I will pursue. Coming from the athletic training profession- where salaries are low, hours are long, and respect among other providers is often questionable, I couldn't think of a better change of profession. It's all perspective, really....and that changes with everyone. It's hard to make generalized recommendations because we're all coming from different places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 26, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 26, 2012 as for speciality jumping, I think CAQs and the momentum of PA residencies are going to find PAs going back to training mode within the next several years if they want to change specialties. . agree with Steve. lateral mobility for pa's is going away. hospital credentialing committees are making it to difficulkt to switch specialties. to get privileges to do something you have to prove you have already done it. anyone can go into a prinmary care field but procedural fields are getting more and more difficult to switch between every year. at this point if I wanted to do surgery for example I would probably have to do a residency if I didn't want to get stuck with a job that was all floor scut. the future for pa's is going to be mandatory residencies and caq's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderlustPA Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 It's hard to make generalized recommendations because we're all coming from different places. Exactly! There are just way too many personal factors to consider to say that med school is the best option for any 22 year old with the ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted December 26, 2012 Share Posted December 26, 2012 Exactly! There are just way too many personal factors to consider to say that med school is the best option for any 22 year old with the ability. This is exactly why they get such a generalized piece of advice...because nobody knows all these personal factors. Its easy to give general advice based on what you would do, vs give specific advice based on what you know about a person when in actuality you know nothing about them. You both pretty much proved why its not a good idea to ask complete strangers about what you should do with your life and maybe turn to friends and family. Strangers do not know enough about you to personalize it....they can simply tell you what they would do if they were in the same situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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