College kids being discouraged?

[ItRainsItPours]

Why do so many established PAs on here tell everyone in their only 20s to go to medical school? I mean no disrespect but I don't get it. I'm excited to be a PA; if successful I'll have a salary that I could raise a family on and do work that actually helps society. I can't imagine wanting anything more.

 

I get the health care experience issue, that's why I'm going to be a medic first. But why do so many on here disapprove of young guys like me planning on PAs? It seems like a great career path and I'm excited to one day be a provider. My mom is an MD and while Im proud of her we want very different things. To her being a doctor wasn't a choice, she was born and that is what she is so she did what need be done to self actualize. Me on other hand would rather play my guitar, but since that makes no money and I wish to possess quantifiable skillset PA seems like a great option.

 

I'm not looking for affirmation or to stir up the pot. I'm genuinely curious as to why there is opposition to college students desiring to be PAs

[ItRainsItPours]

Ps that bit about playing guitar was a joke, I'm not lazy by any means. But I don't have much desire to spend those years in medical school/resident due to other interests like ems, music, literature etc

[mk1477]

^Right? I don't care what anyone says, I'm NOT going to med school, period. They make it seem like going to med school is THAT simple... the two professions are similar, but they still carry different responsibilities that should be acknowledged.

[rev ronin]

It's pretty simple, really: If you have the experience, drive, and maturity to succeed in medical school in your 20's, you should go to medical school while it remains a financially favorable alternative. If you don't have those characteristics in sufficient quantities to succeed in medical school, then you don't belong in PA school either, since it's harder.

 

MDs make more money for doing mostly the same things that PAs do, and in doing so have more societal respect and legal freedom. Show me someone who can complete PA school in his or her 20's, and I'll show a PA who will have hit the "PA ceiling" before hitting age 50. There may be the occasional exception, but that posits someone aggressive enough to kick butt at one of the hardest academic courses of study that exist... and then suddenly turns into a type b couch potato who is content to plod along as a medical assistant [sic] indefinitely.

 

Understand that this is not a dig at the younger students, except perhaps within the scope of their naive expectations about career longevity and progression in the face of advice from older and wiser PAs, and in light of a national organization characterized by abject cowardice are unrepentant spinelessness in the face of simple changes like "physician associate".

[hiiamalysha]

Everyone says PA school is harder. It is med school condensed into only two years, so duh it will be harder! Most young people that decide not to go to Med school decide that not because they think PA school is easier, but because it is a quicker option and allows them to start their lives sooner. They have other aspirations as well. So I agree with it ItRainsItPours and have to disagree with rev ronin

[mk1477]

It's not the stress of the schooling; however being a doctor is LONGER (4 years of med school + years of residency, etc.) and PA school is definitely shorter and cost effective. Either way, it's more of the job responsibility that I'll carry is what matters the most: I feel so much comfortable working under the supervision of someone who I can turn to, in case, for additional feedback, decision-making and verification over a patient's health. One advantage of being PA: most of the time, you handle LESS COMPLEX cases, while you leave the harder, more difficult medical complaints to the doctors.

[E27]

Show me someone who can complete PA school in his or her 20's, and I'll show a PA who will have hit the "PA ceiling" before hitting age 50.

 

Why should this "glass ceiling" deter bright, young students from pursuing a career as a PA? Think about how many people in non-medical fields change their careers throughout their lifetime (I think ~7 is the most widely cited number). It's rare for someone to stay in one profession their entire life without feeling a "glass ceiling" of some type, or just becoming bored with what you're doing. PAs have the luxury of keeping their work interesting by having so many options: completely change specialties, move into a pharmaceutical role, raise that glass ceiling by going for MD/DO, etc. Just because someone has the means to attend medical school in their 20s does not mean they should automatically choose MD over PA. Everyone has their own priorities in life.

[Timon]

For most of the "non-20's" folks on here we are telling those who are in their early 20's to go to med school because if we were in your shoes that's what we'd do. So it's not saying anything about you directly but time and age will come for you and you'll see what we're telling you through your own experience. No one here would give you advice they wouldn't do themselves. Had I been 10 years younger I'd go to med school. That's just a fact.

 

In my case I wanted to be different then my father and sister who are both ER physicians so I chose to go into business. I did it because I wanted to experience something else which ultimately led me back to my true calling as a healthcare provider. So don't take this as a stab at your age. Take it as advice from people who if they were in your shoes would opt to go the med school route. For reasons such as autonomy, income, and potential career ceiling.

 

When you graduate PA school you'll be making 80-110k a year depending on specialty and region. When you finish your residency as a MD/DO you'll be making $300k +. Keep in mind during residency you can moonlight and make money in addition to your residency salary. If you were to compare cost of school including living expenses and salary it will take 12 years for you to break even from the income vs debt between a PA and a MD/DO. So in essence if you went to med school at 23 and PA school at the same age.. By the time you're 35 you'll be making at least $200k more a year as a doctor then if you were a PA. So let's break it down even further... When you're 55 and ready for retirement you would have potentially made $4,000,000 more then if you were a PA. I don't know about you but I would like to make that much more money by the time I was 55... Just saying...

 

The older you get the more reasons you create that makes it harder to dedicate 7 years to schooling because in a blink of an eye you'll be married, the wrong side of 30, you'll accumulate debt, and your financial support system begins to erode as now you're at the age where you'll not only be financially independent but most likely you may have to support your parents.

[E27]

For most of the "non-20's" folks on here we are telling those who are in their early 20's to go to med school because if we were in your shoes that's what we'd do. So it's not saying anything about you directly but time and age will come for you and you'll see what we're telling you through your own experience. No one here would give you advice they wouldn't do themselves. Had I been 10 years younger I'd go to med school. That's just a fact.

 

In my case I wanted to be different then my father and sister who are both ER physicians so I chose to go into business. I did it because I wanted to experience something else which ultimately led me back to my true calling as a healthcare provider. So don't take this as a stab at your age. Take it as advice from people who if they were in your shoes would opt to go the med school route. For reasons such as autonomy, income, and potential career ceiling.

 

When you graduate PA school you'll be making 80-110k a year depending on specialty and region. When you finish your residency as a MD/DO you'll be making $300k +. Keep in mind during residency you can moonlight and make money in addition to your residency salary. If you were to compare cost of school including living expenses and salary it will take 12 years for you to break even from the income vs debt between a PA and a MD/DO. So in essence if you went to med school at 23 and PA school at the same age.. By the time you're 35 you'll be making at least $200k more a year as a doctor then if you were a PA. So let's break it down even further... When you're 55 and ready for retirement you would have potentially made $4,000,000 more then if you were a PA. I don't know about you but I would like to make that much more money by the time I was 55... Just saying...

 

The older you get the more reasons you create that makes it harder to dedicate 7 years to schooling because in a blink of an eye you'll be married, the wrong side of 30, you'll accumulate debt, and your financial support system begins to erode as now you're at the age where you'll not only be financially independent but most likely you may have to support your parents.

 

While I can understand that some might wish they could have attended med school in their 20s, it's still not as easy as "oh, you're 20? Go to med school," as many people on this forum make it out to be. Just because one is in their 20s and is capable of attending medical school does not mean they should not be a PA. Earning 80-110k is a solid salary, especially when I look at many of my friends who will be pursuing social work, respiratory therapy, teaching, etc. Earning $300k+, while nice, is not worth the necessary sacrifices (for some of us) to become a physician. Look at all of the MDs who are burnt out, leaving the profession, dissuading the next generation to avoid medicine, etc. Sure, $300k would be nice, but at what cost? Plus, with the future of healthcare weighing in the balance, who's to say that $300k will be the norm in 10-15 years? It's entirely possible to live a comfortable life (while also saving for retirement) on a $100k salary, especially if there is a spouse's income added to the equation.

 

Again, to each their own in terms of life priorities and goals.

[Timon]

Again, to each their own in terms of life priorities and goals.

 

That's how I feel which is why I usually don't reply to these types of posts. But in this case I wanted to give some perspective since Rev was the only one to respond as to a potential reason why some older people tell younger people to go to med school.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

It's honest advice. If you don't like it, don't take it.

[rev ronin]

it's still not as easy as "oh, you're 20? Go to med school," as many people on this forum make it out to be. Just because one is in their 20s and is capable of attending medical school does not mean they should not be a PA.

 

Actually, it is. More importantly, as a pre-PA you have no basis upon which to dispute my assertion that it isn't: you haven't been there OR done that. It smacks of delusional thinking for someone in their 20's to assert that those of us who have had previous careers, are currently PA's, and have at least as good a view of medical school and residency (I did 40% of my clinicals alongside med students, interns, and/or residents) have an inexplicably incorrect view of how life changes and evolves.

 

To put it another way, I remember what life is like in my 20's, but no one in their 20's can possibly remember what life will be like in their 40's.

 

So you have two choices: accept or reject the wisdom of your elders. Plenty of people reject my position, and if I'm right there are plenty of 20-somethings who will be out of the PA workforce in 20 years, just like those of us who're starting our careers in our 40's.

 

And to top it all off, your assertion above about burnout and sacrifices belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the level of work required from a physician vs. a PA to obtain those disparate salaries.

[noiseordinance]

This might sound offensive, but the people who say "If you are in your 20s, go to med school" really sound like they are bitter about their decisions to become serious about healthcare late in life. To say that young people should go to medical school is an absolute disservice to the PA profession. The REAL experience comes when you are on the job. Whether you spend 3 years in PA school or more than double / triple that amount in med school / residency, after a few years both tend to even out, with the exception of salary and prestige. So I would say, if you are concerned about salary and prestige and are in your 20s, go to med school. If you are concerned about salary and prestige and are older, consider a different trade maybe. If you want to serve as an excellent provider for SEVERAL EXTRA YEARS OF YOUR LIFE, AND your background is sufficient to be accepted into a program, consider PA school: chances are you'll be a great PA.

[E27]

Actually, it is. More importantly, as a pre-PA you have no basis upon which to dispute my assertion that it isn't: you haven't been there OR done that. It smacks of delusional thinking for someone in their 20's to assert that those of us who have had previous careers, are currently PA's, and have at least as good a view of medical school and residency (I did 40% of my clinicals alongside med students, interns, and/or residents) have an inexplicably incorrect view of how life changes and evolves.

 

To put it another way, I remember what life is like in my 20's, but no one in their 20's can possibly remember what life will be like in their 40's.

 

So you have two choices: accept or reject the wisdom of your elders. Plenty of people reject my position, and if I'm right there are plenty of 20-somethings who will be out of the PA workforce in 20 years, just like those of us who're starting our careers in our 40's.

 

And to top it all off, your assertion above about burnout and sacrifices belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the level of work required from a physician vs. a PA to obtain those disparate salaries.

 

Sorry, but you can't write off someone's opinion simply because of age. Sure, you've been around longer than I have, but how does that change the fact that you have different goals in life than I do? It doesn't. It's great that you encourage young people to strive to be the top of the medical profession, but it is NOT as easy as you make it out to be. It's irrational to choose MD over PA just because one is in their 20s; there are many other factors that weigh into that decision.

[bjl12]

I plan to apply to both PA/Med school. If I get into both I'll decide then (and then would be = 28 years old, so I wouldn't be exactly young). Either way, it's just a job. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

[GatorRRT]

I think the issue many of the younger folks here tend to ignore is the fact that the PA profession is intended as a "second career". What makes the concept of "med school in 2 years" work is the fact that PA schools are supposed to be building on the experience of those that have already learned/practiced "the basics". When considering MD vs PA, the amount of debt really shouldn't be a deciding factor. Either profession makes enough to cover the debt. Both careers have a similar amount of responsibility. Please also remember that as a PA, you'll often be working when the doctor you work for would rather not, which means get ready for holidays, nights etc being spent with patients; not family. Depending on specialty PAs work equal or MORE hours than their physician counterparts; thus negating any claim of "better work-life balance" as a PA.

[sartort]

I'm 26 and will be almost 29 when I graduate PA school, so I do still fit in the 20's group. I realized I wanted to be a PA when I was in the army as a medic, got my 4 years experience and started school with that goal at the age of 23. I spent about two days considering med school during that time, but realized the only reason I would choose that route is if I wanted to be called a doctor or make a lot of money. Neither of those aspects motivated me to change my path. I respect doctors and don't have anything against the profession, but I know that my desire to easily change areas of practice is more important to me than anything being a doctor would allow. Changing specialties as a doctor is more difficult, although possible, and I don't want to deal with a residency if I decide I want to do something different then what I initially choose. I know that I could one day realize that I want more autonomy, and then I could consider going back into the army or working for the DoD as a civilian where I could get that freedom.

 

I think I understand both points of view. There are plenty of people who commit to the profession without even knowing that it isn't a "physician's assistant" or who jump at the idea of practicing medicine in the quickest way possible. For many, it isn't a quick path at all and they will discover that. Sadly some spots in programs will be taken by people who would rather go to med school (even if they didn't know it when they started) and that is probably why some PAs give that advice. If you have a reason why PA works for you and MD/DO doesn't, then stick with your plan and prove them wrong. If you chose the profession for the right reasons then you will likely be an outstanding provider. I have heard some doctors say they should have gone PA. One told me he applied for PA programs and when he was rejected he went to med school instead, and still wishes he had gotten into PA school. There's always going to be at least a patch of grass that looks greener on the other side.

[rev ronin]

Sorry, but you can't write off someone's opinion simply because of age.

 

Actually, I can and did. Get used to people not caring what you think because you're just an assistant, if you want to be a PA.

 

But I'm just pulling your leg there... I'm not THAT much of a jerk: I wrote off your opinion because it's born of idealistic ignorance and inexperience, not because of your age, which I don't even know to begin with. That's not a slam on youth--so much of the time I wish the world actually worked the way you want it to... but it doesn't, in my experience: not everyone can grow up to be an astronaut.

 

I'll say it again: Show me a student who can kick butt, take names, and clean up in PA school at age 22, and I'll show you someone who's waaay past bored with being an assistant by age 40. I'll admit the possibility of a theoretical exception... in much the same way I acknowledge that I might win the lottery someday.

 

But go ahead and use your life to prove me wrong. You'll either do so, or admit someday that I was right all along, but the only way to test which idea is superior is to go forth and try and implement yours. I don't run your life, you do. I just give the best advice I can, for free, to people who care about serving others.

[paul2834]

Let me start by saying that I am in my 20s with plans to attend PA school over medical school. It basically boils down to one question. What's more valuable? At least 6 extra years of career life that doesn't have a residency or more income, more respect, more recognition, less work after residency, better hours, and more career opportunities beyond medicine. It's a very polarizing question, and I can see why. The MD route requires a huge sacrifice upfront and dividends aren't realized until at least your 30s. Many older PAs say it's worth the sacrifice but I'm not completely convinced. I've seen many posts commenting on the positives but not one that says they would have been fine delaying marriage and starting a family. It's possible that this PA could have married someone completely different going the MD route with the added stress that a residency and relocation puts on a relationship. But I acknowledge that people of my age group are naive if they think there's any advantage to being a PA over an MD besides the shorter training and their dependent nature in certain settings.

[True Anomaly]

One advantage of being PA: most of the time, you handle LESS COMPLEX cases, while you leave the harder, more difficult medical complaints to the doctors.

 

Yes, because stunting your intellectual growth in your chosen profession is a wise thing to do.

 

You may find this rewarding in the long-run...but you won't know until you're actually WORKING in the field.

I, however, find great enjoyment and challenge in being able to stand side-by-side with my ER physician colleagues while deconstructing the same difficult acutely ill patient, and arriving at the same diagnosis and therapy as they do.

[Just Steve]

For me, my encouragement to the younger generation is because my passion for medicine is an intense one. I think that anyone who is destined for the provider role should maximize their growth in that career. That means maximizing their education as well. If the younger folks are truly focused on a medical career, I vote for a full commitment. You are not going to give "good enough" care to your patients, you are going to give the best care you can. Why not put yourself in a better position to do so?

 

i see the younger generation not wanting to put in serious patient care experience but wanting their white coat. I am sorry, but being a phlebotomist, volunteer EMT (because of low call volumes inherent to the volunteer system) or scribe and like things is not solid experience. It is exposure but you are not making critical decisions on a regular basis. So when you couple the lack of experience with the less intense education model of PA school, you are not reaching your full potential as a care provider.

 

After I got done being a Navy Corpsman and paramedic, 20+ years of adulthood were bhind me. I had three small children, and spent far more weekends, nights, and holidays away from my growing family...and no undergrad degree. I wanted to maximize my patient care education but not sacrifice the next 11 years getting through the med school process. If I could go back and realize I wanted to wear the white coat, I would have kicked off the higher formal education process much sooner.

 

So my advice about doing med school early is not malicious but simply us channeling our "if I could go back and do it all again" speech. It is great that y'all want to help your fellow human. It is a grand and noble advocation. Just don't go at it in a half *** manner. Either do some serious time in the trenches learning the ropes of medicine then to PA school or go through the grinder of med school and earn your place on the front door shingle. Practicing medicine is not some privalage that you should be given because you can carry a decent GPA and take tests well. Practicing medicine is a privalage that you earn by grunting it out and proving your mettle.

[cac4488]

Is no one mentioning the fact that most people who apply to PA school are less statistically competitive than med school applicants? I'm not saying not as smart by any means, but I find a lot of people I know going the PA route were toward the end of undergrad or 1-3 years out of school before they realized they wanted to be in healthcare, and may fall short of the very high stats required by med schools. The high end of GPAs is like 3.4 avg for PA school? And something like 3.6-3.8 for med school? Don't quote me but roughly, I'm just saying those numbers don't entirely match. I find a lot of PAs spent time in school doing other things and not necessarily killing themselves over grades... For example I was an RA, did research, a lot of community service, and worked multiple jobs through school. These experiences contribute to a lot of what makes a PA a more well rounded provider and I think this is part of what patients connect to. However, while a med school AdCom may appreciate these experiences, the lower stats are much harder to overcome to go to med school.

 

Additionally, I think "20s" is a over-generalization. I will be 25 when I start PA school and will graduate at about 28. Add one year at least working full time before I can have children. Boom I'm almost 30, and that's if having kids comes easy. Could take a year+. If I want 2-3, I'm 35 still having kids. As a female at 25, I think med school becomes almost impossible if you want to focus on family and a career. You'd be about 33 before you even start your first job. I just don't think it's that black and white that "20s=young" because time flies and there's a big difference between 20-22 and the later 20s in regards to family planning, etc.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

For females who want families to go PA, it makes some sense sense they may come out financially better in the long run sense they take so much time off. NOT that PAs have better hours.

 

I also see this as a viable career for those with already significant debt and can't put off making money for so many years. I'm not talking about your measly 40k student loan debt, but people who needed money yesterday.

 

For those who go PA because they are less competitive GPA wise, it isn't a huge leap to go a couple points up in GPA and go DO with grade replacement. It'll take you just as long to get quality HCE as it would to raise that GPA.

 

Now you may say I don't believe HCE is necessary, and I'll say fine. I believe there should be mandatory residencies for everyone but family practice PAs (optional for then) anyway.

 

::takes deep breath::

 

And to those who want to handle less complex patients. I don't want you anywhere near my profession. I, and mostly others with more clout than me, have a hard enough time trying to advance this profession/promote it without the significant population of PAs that just want easy street and worry about upsetting the doctor by taking the "scawy" patients. I'm sorry the civilian world doesn't have an equivalent position to see aches and sniffles, but when I hear "I just want to see simple patients," I process it as "I have no real passion for medicine and am using this as a stable paycheck in a rough economy. My SP can make me his whipping boy if he wants for 80k/year. I will never give you money/vocal support to advance this profession. At worst I'll actively be against you, at best I'll be silent. So my silence will seem to be agreement when the name change doesn't pass, or when we try to change the wording from supervising to collaborating."

 

::gasps for air from rant and steps off soap box::

[just_me]

**mini rant**

Well the fact of the matter is...you come to a public discussion board and ask for advice and you may.....no you WILL get advice you don't like so pull up your big boy/girl pants and ignore it if you don't like it....it's really simple. Just because a stranger on the internet isnt nurturing your goals and aspirations, why should that bother you so much? They don't know you personally, they have no effect on what you will do, they aren't your future. Why do they say it? In the end, does it really matter why they say it?

 

In my opinion, if they tell a 20 something year old (or anyone for that matter) to go to med school, and that person actually considers it, then they werent sure they wanted to be a PA in the first place. They were wishy washy and Im glad someone had the guts to make them take a second look at their choice instead of pushing them in a direction that they werent sure about in the first place. Does this make me a bad person? To some of you maybe, but I don't care because in the end, that person who takes a second glance at their potential life choice may save themselves a lot of trouble and grief by questioning their choice and making sure its what they REALLY want.

 

There are some who KNOW what they want and can't be swayed, there are some that make choices for the wrong reasons and there are some on the fence--if you KNOW that PA is the way for you then someone saying "go to med school" shouldn't bother you. Those who are choosing it for the wrong reason or on the fence, it should bug you a little because it will make you question yourself/choices and no one likes to question themselves.:heheh:

 

I am a little biased though. I have had PAs on this board give me advice contrary to what I wanted to hear. Eventually it made me question a choice that I was going to make. I eventually changed my mind and took my PA journey in a different direction. When the advice was given to me it annoyed me and I remember thinking "that's not what I asked you for"....now Im actually glad I took the advice....my journey would have been a lot harder than it is now.

[bjl12]

Is no one mentioning the fact that most people who apply to PA school are less statistically competitive than med school applicants? I'm not saying not as smart by any means, but I find a lot of people I know going the PA route were toward the end of undergrad or 1-3 years out of school before they realized they wanted to be in healthcare, and may fall short of the very high stats required by med schools. The high end of GPAs is like 3.4 avg for PA school? And something like 3.6-3.8 for med school? Don't quote me but roughly, I'm just saying those numbers don't entirely match. I find a lot of PAs spent time in school doing other things and not necessarily killing themselves over grades...

 

I fall into this category as my first few years of school were... well not the greatest. There are medical schools though that place considerable emphasis on most recent coursework. I forget them off the top of my head but they claim to only examine your most recent 4 semester GPA. There are also PA schools like this.

 

DO schools are generally accepting of students with a 3.3-3.5 GPA so long as their sGPA is higher and their MCAT is decent (along with interview/personal letter/references/etc.) And at that point, 3.3-3.5 GPA with a higher sGPA, you can qualify for both DO/PA. So it becomes a choice again.