nnfoster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 thanks...but, the white male students (and their families who have just paid over $200K) who didn't get accepted...close to 4,000 are very unhappy they do not have a seat in med school nor are they qualified for a job ! When the valedictorian of Harvard doesn't get into med school (2011), I will continue to believe a top student's chances for med school acceptance are not high :) https://www.aamc.org/download/321480/data/2012factstable12.pdfWhen making claims, it's best to cite data as opposed to making generalized statements based on opinion.:heheh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 ....nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Pipe Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If you take a look at the top tier PA programs, it becomes obvious that they are looking for experienced applicants. They are not encouraging direct entry, nor will they bend on their HCE requirements. UW MEDEX Stanford Emory Utah Campbell Wake Forest UF To name a few. These are some of the "heavy hitters" when it comes to PA programs. No direct entry options and they measure the HCE requirements in the 1000's. Age has little to do with it, but experience counts in many of the "top tier" programs. If you look deeper into these and other programs, you will find that they select applicants who normally have 5-10 times the amount HCE "required". Sure, there are some that have the minimum...but they are the exception. To get experience, it takes time = older student. If you look at US News rankings, 5 of the top 25 schools are direct entry. If you look at the ranking from the journal of physician assistants, 5 are in the top 20. This is ratio is MUCH higher than the ratio of direct entry schools to grad school pa programs. (Ill calculate what that is and post it when I figure it out) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Pipe Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 it's about 3:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMill Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 60 hours plus classroom work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If you look at US News rankings, 5 of the top 25 schools are direct entry. If you look at the ranking from the journal of physician assistants, 5 are in the top 20. This is ratio is MUCH higher than the ratio of direct entry schools to grad school pa programs. (Ill calculate what that is and post it when I figure it out) What's USN&WR's selection criteria for their "top" list? Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Pipe Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 What's USN&WR's selection criteria for their "top" list? Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk http://www.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=action/GetDocumentAction/i/118967 Here's the link showing how both rank. It basically says that the us news rankings are inaccurate but I included it in with the journal of physician assistants ranking because it's the one that I've heard referred to the most. "Methods: The 73 PA schools included in the 2007 US News ranking were ranked based on each school’s current Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA) accreditation length, student-to-faculty ratio, percentage of faculty with doctoral degrees, and the most recent 5-year average Physician Assistant National Certifying Examination (PANCE) pass rates." This is for the ranking that came out to have 5/20 be direct entry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 4, 2013 Moderator Share Posted January 4, 2013 What's USN&WR's selection criteria for their "top" list? Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk who sent in the most bottles of scotch to the reviewers...these ratings are crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfoster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I don't doubt your comment...but, what other measurements can a prospective student and their parents look at ? (in addition to visiting schools, reading online reviews and checking PANCE pass rates ) thanks in advance :) who sent in the most bottles of scotch to the reviewers...these ratings are crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkels Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I would ask the same: what measurements should be used to rank schools. Certainly not HCE requirements UNLESS it has been shown in a study that greater HCE equates to better PAs (especially when looking beyond the first year out of school). But to my knowledge, no such formal study exists. Then should rank schools based on online forum posters' anecdotal stories about knowing someone who sucked and didn't have much prior HCE? Or should we stick to the argument that the profession was created for medics. Well the profession was also created for primary care, so I guess we need to discredit every single PA who is not in primary care because the profession was not created for them. So what measurements should be made to rank a school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Pipe Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 i actually liked the way this article ranked them: "based on each school’s current Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA) accreditation length, student-to-faculty ratio, percentage of faculty with doctoral degrees, and the most recent 5-year average Physician Assistant National Certifying Examination (PANCE) pass rates." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoPackGo Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Im not a PA-C yet but I would like to think I wouldnt have gone to med school. Then again at the age of 22, I wasnt really sure what I wanted to do and changed majors so many times that I cant remember how many times i changed it. The only reason I can say I dont think I would have gone that route is because all those major changes never included pre-med...I wasnt interested then. It wasnt until I actually worked in a hospital that I decided that medicine was something I wanted to do (Im being dead serious--till that point I was headed towards a psych degree). Then it was about me wanting to practice medicine so I started looking at all the different routes; this was the first time I actually thought about being an MD and the thought lasted all of a day. Just seemed like too much trouble on the back and front end of it all when I compared it to becoming/being a PA. I wasnt concerned with being "top dog", the earning potential, independent practice, or the fear of the glass ceiling or any of that...I just wanted to practice medicine and make a good living doing it. Now not thinking about that stuff may bite me in the butt later, but of all the times I flipped flopped between majors, this was my first time I chose one because it was something I wanted to do (had a passion for) and honestly Im pretty sure thats why Ive gotten this far. This about sums up my decision to be a PA as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMill Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I'm ok with rankings, but sometimes they're just incorrect. Case in point, I noticed St. Francis U had been historically ranked top tier at 20 or 21. Now unranked. Having been accepted there I thought Yikes. Turns out the school or USNWR dropped ball and St. F was missed. So, I guess it's possible that the rankings are off by one going from #20 down if rankings don't change drastically from year to year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Some PA programs, for whatever reason, do not participate in the survey. The number non participants varies every yr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I don't doubt your comment...but, what other measurements can a prospective student and their parents look at ?(in addition to visiting schools, reading online reviews and checking PANCE pass rates ) thanks in advance :) How many hrs has your son spent shadowing a PA? How many PAs, not involved with a PA program, has he sat down with and discussed the profession? What HCE/life experience has he had. All of these are also needed for him to make an informed decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorRRT Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 thanks...but, the white male students (and their families who have just paid over $200K) who didn't get accepted...close to 4,000 are very unhappy they do not have a seat in med school nor are they qualified for a job ! When the valedictorian of Harvard doesn't get into med school (2011), I will continue to believe a top student's chances for med school acceptance are not high :) N=1 anecdotal evidence . . .:=Z: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfoster Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 He shadowed a PA working as a hospitalist at a community hospital, a PA working in single MD family practice office and a PA working in a multi surgeon specialty office for a total of 75 hours. Also had spent four summers volunteering in the local hospital out patient surgery center and observed some surgeries last summer. A most serious student at a rigorous private school who has always planned for the next stage, he has a 3.97 GPA...and is an ideal candidate for a six year program. He is enrolled in an EMT Basic class to begin the HCE hours (the six year programs require the HCE hours to be completed by the start of the grad portion of the program, so there are three summers to complete the hours ). The hardest part...choosing from the four 0-6 programs he has been accepted to ! How many hrs has your son spent shadowing a PA? How many PAs, not involved with a PA program, has he sat down with and discussed the profession? What HCE/life experience has he had. All of these are also needed for him to make an informed decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Pipe Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 which schools? did he apply to any 5 year programs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted January 5, 2013 Administrator Share Posted January 5, 2013 he has a 3.97 GPA...and is an ideal candidate for medical school Fixed that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfoster Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 cute :) Actually, from age 8 to 16, he thought med school too :) Then reality of the slim chances to get into med school and the number of years to complete specialty training and expense for middle class family convinced him to look at 6 yr healthcare programs...DPT, PharmD and PA. Picked PA. Reaffirmed PA vs MD when brilliant acquaintance and Ivy League grad trouble getting into med school ! And if the PA profession appears to wish to grow in scope and acceptance...then a high school senior who chooses a 6 yr PA program ought to be encouraged :) And hopefully, his future patients will agree ! Fixed that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cac4488 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Maybe he would be encouraged if he spoke for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 He shadowed a PA working as a hospitalist at a community hospital, a PA working in single MD family practice office and a PA working in a multi surgeon specialty office for a total of 75 hours. Also had spent four summers volunteering in the local hospital out patient surgery center and observed some surgeries last summer. I do not mean this in an offensive way. Based on 75 hrs of shadowing and some sort of minimal volunteer work I submit that your son doesn't have a clue what the PA world is like. Most 17-18 year olds don't know what they really want to do with their life. I have known/taught/precepted too many 3rd yr med students that discovered when they encountered patients for the first time they really didn't like medicine. I have also encountered many service academy graduates who fall into the same trap. They enter at 17-18 graduate and the first thing on their mind is how soon can I get out. They are also, as a group, among the most cynical people I have ever met. Someone graduating from HS shouldn't be pigeonholed so early. Let him go to a good liberal arts school for undergrad and if at the end he still wants to be a PA go for it. I'm speaking to you not only as an experienced PA but also as a parent who has been down this road. Now, before anyone starts asking for a cite, I don't have a double blind peer reviewed study to refer you too. This is based solely on my experience (33 yrs as a PA), opinion and being a parent. People come here with preconceived notions asking for advice, thoughts etc. and when those aren't affimed they feel they are being discouraged. Most of the PAs on this board offer advice, thoughts based on their experience, not to affirm your opinions/thoughts or hold your hand. This isn't Little League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Maybe he would be encouraged if he spoke for himself. Exactly!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Kinda Humorous that this vociferous poster screen named "nnfoster" selected "pre-pa" instead of "Other" as a descriptor... So are we to believe that this poster is going to follow in his "Son's" footsteps... ???? Yeah... ok... right...!!! :heheh: Carry On.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sartort Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 The program director at one of the "US News Top 10" schools told those at the interview that the rankings are not something to base a decision off of. He said each program gets two forms to fill out where they rank all the programs across the nation on the listed categories. He also said that since he isn't familiar with many if them that he only evaluates the ones he knows about, and i imagine many people filling them out do the same thing. Newer programs or programs that are less known nationally for whatever reason are at a disadvantage. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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