cac4488 Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Just because you CAN theoretically have kids as an MD doesn't mean that's how you want to do it. I don't think anyone is saying "that's impossible". I think people are just saying we all have different priorities. Sure... You can have your 24 hour day off to be with your wife in labor. Sure... A baby can physically be brought into the world and survive with one or two parents as residents. I think the point here is that to give up all those precious hours with your children, to want to be an MD that badly, is not for everyone. I recognize I CAN do anything. I just don't WANT to make certain sacrifices. My dad is an MD and was in a neurosurgery program when he met my mom. He stopped because he realized he couldn't have both lives. There's nothing WRONG with that and it's not that I couldn't have been conceived and raised while he was in an OR all the time... It's just priorities. It's the same with business, law, etc. I don't know why we are arguing over what CAN be done... Personally that's not what llimits most of the intelligent and hard working people I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 29, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 29, 2012 We aren't arguing on what can be done, I'm denying that med students are completely dedicated to medicine and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I think the point here is that to give up all those precious hours with your children, to want to be an MD that badly, is not for everyone. Hopefully everyone on this board is smart enough to know its physical possible to bring a kid into the world while in school--surely thats not the point most of us are trying to make:wink: I think the point that some are trying to make is that its not always that serious to where an original dream has to be given up for another. Youre not always going to be there, at some point you have to work right? So those precious hours may be missed anyway so if youre going to sacrifice the time, make sure that youre doing it for something you really truly want and not just do it for what you think is the only "right" option.......resentment can be an ugly thing and that can build when one feels they missed their chance, or could have been doing something better etc. Im not saying a person is right or wrong for choosing a route because they feel its the best route for having a family, all I hope is that its not their only reason and that they are truly happy with their choice. I would give the same advice for someone who chooses any career for that reason, or a career for just money etc. Again, in this situation I may be a little biased as a single parent who has juggled school/work/family for quite some time now. I decided to go for what I wanted while I can because I refuse to be one of those who looks back and wonders or who says "yeah I could have done that if I didnt have a kid"....if I choose not to do something I wont have her to blame for it, just me. They say you cant make others happy unless youre happy with yourself...our choices are part of that. If a person is truly happy with their choice...so be it; however, there are some who are told over and over that its nearly impossible and a hellish nightmare when thats not always the truth and nobody is wrong for pointing that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted December 29, 2012 Administrator Share Posted December 29, 2012 I think there are several assumptions being made about 1) the number of hours per week residents actually work vs. how many PAs do, and 2) the assumption that residents don't practice medicine. #1 will vary by specialty, but #2 is probably the most outright stupid assumption I've ever seen on this board. Residents have their MD, and practice medicine--that is, outright do the work--under the direct or indirect supervision of attending physicians or senior residents. Sound like anyone else we know? Wow, now that you mention it, that does sound a bit like the PA practice model, doesn't it? Intern year sucks pretty much everywhere, but even in a sucky intern slot, an intern is still an MD/DO, still addressed by the nurses and staff as doctor, and not answerable to anyone but other doctors. Interns and residents still get paid, rather than spending money to be somewhere. They write orders--generally without cosignature--and implement sketchily-outlined plans of care verbally conveyed by attendings. Residents practice medicine, every bit as much as I do as a new PA graduate, so you can count residency as waiting time until actually getting a fair salary, but it's NOT multiple wasted years "in school" waiting to practice medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 29, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 29, 2012 agree with above. residency is a low paid first job. internship does suck but there are cushy fp residencies in which pgy-2 and 3 are only 50-60 hrs/week. residents can also moonlight at a rate of pay higher than a pa. it is not uncommon for residents to pick up shifts here and there at > $100/hr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amelia Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Obviously I think people need to make the best decision for themselves and generalized advice based on someone's age has never been appropriate. That being said, I think we should stop throwing out generalized statements about PA and Doc's salaries without backing them up with any evidence. Hours per week, acuity of patients and income vary dramatically between fields for both PAs and Docs. I happen to know for a fact that there is not an MD working in primary care in my area that makes $300,000 (or honestly anywhere close to that) so I guess I should add that it varies dramatically by location as well. I think it would be great for someone to study this for real (I mean with actual numbers based on actual facts not on our own personal feelings), but in the meantime if there is anyone who has made it this far in the thread - here's a great example of where generalizations about the financial benefits of being a doctor vs. a PA are garbage. "The research found that after factoring in the high upfront costs of becoming a doctor, most women primary-care doctors would have made more money over their careers becoming physician assistants instead" http://mba.yale.edu/news_events/CMS/Articles/7617.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEPA Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Are there any PAs here that would NOT go to medical school if they had an acceptance in hand when they were ~22? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Im not a PA-C yet but I would like to think I wouldnt have gone to med school. Then again at the age of 22, I wasnt really sure what I wanted to do and changed majors so many times that I cant remember how many times i changed it. The only reason I can say I dont think I would have gone that route is because all those major changes never included pre-med...I wasnt interested then. It wasnt until I actually worked in a hospital that I decided that medicine was something I wanted to do (Im being dead serious--till that point I was headed towards a psych degree). Then it was about me wanting to practice medicine so I started looking at all the different routes; this was the first time I actually thought about being an MD and the thought lasted all of a day. Just seemed like too much trouble on the back and front end of it all when I compared it to becoming/being a PA. I wasnt concerned with being "top dog", the earning potential, independent practice, or the fear of the glass ceiling or any of that...I just wanted to practice medicine and make a good living doing it. Now not thinking about that stuff may bite me in the butt later, but of all the times I flipped flopped between majors, this was my first time I chose one because it was something I wanted to do (had a passion for) and honestly Im pretty sure thats why Ive gotten this far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friction Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I'm perfectly content and happy with practicing at the level of a PA. Besides, I plan on marrying a doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I should add that to my game plan as well.....:;;D: Besides, I plan on marrying a doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMill Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I'm 17. Just got offers to 3 PA programs. I know that at this point in my life, I want to be a PA. I want to practice Medicine sooner; want to dance, do gymnastics, coach, etc. And, in my opinion, I think the salary sounds great! Maybe I'll go to med school, but for now, being a PA is exactly what I want to do. My guidance counselors, teachers & even one admissions officer called my parents & said I should do their school's 3/4 college/medical school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfoster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I question the accuracy of PA as a "second career" when many programs offer 0-6 options for 18 year olds coming straight from high school :) Hard to squeeze in the HCE aspect, but no worries about pre-reqs or getting a grad school seat ! So, seems to be the profession is open to different folks in different stages of life...and it all boils down to ability plus personal choice ! I think the issue many of the younger folks here tend to ignore is the fact that the PA profession is intended as a "second career". What makes the concept of "med school in 2 years" work is the fact that PA schools are supposed to be building on the experience of those that have already learned/practiced "the basics". When considering MD vs PA, the amount of debt really shouldn't be a deciding factor. Either profession makes enough to cover the debt. Both careers have a similar amount of responsibility. Please also remember that as a PA, you'll often be working when the doctor you work for would rather not, which means get ready for holidays, nights etc being spent with patients; not family. Depending on specialty PAs work equal or MORE hours than their physician counterparts; thus negating any claim of "better work-life balance" as a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsquit3 Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 This forum is dominated by 10-15 PAs who seem convinced that anyone in their early years should go to medical school. Take their advice with a grain of salt, there are plenty of PAs who think contrary. Don't place too much value in what a very small portion of the working population think. I'm young and have children, and deciding to go to PA school over med school was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorRRT Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I question the accuracy of PA as a "second career" when many programs offer 0-6 options for 18 year olds coming straight from high school :)Hard to squeeze in the HCE aspect, but no worries about pre-reqs or getting a grad school seat ! So, seems to be the profession is open to different folks in different stages of life...and it all boils down to ability plus personal choice ! Direct from highschool PAs are the exception to the rule and make up a minority of current grads. There is no denying the movement towards emphasis on academics vs experience; however, the basis of PA education per Euegene Stead was to take those with experience, build on that experience and create a competent provider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfoster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Understand the historic basis of PA...but, times and healthcare do change ! My just turned 18 yr old is a high school senior and has been accepted to four 0-6 PA programs. All of these colleges required very high GPAs and SAT scores, as well as maturity and understanding of the commitment to a six year program. They all require varying amounts of direct patient care experience before the start of the grad school portion of the program...several colleges embed a basic EMT program into the undergrad curriculum to enable students to obtain the HCE. Direct from highschool PAs are the exception to the rule and make up a minority of current grads. There is no denying the movement towards emphasis on academics vs experience; however, the basis of PA education per Euegene Stead was to take those with experience, build on that experience and create a competent provider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMill Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 To nnfoster: I hope your kid gets on this forum. I'm a senior, too. I have my CNA & this semester I'm getting surgical tech experience & am competing in Skills-USA for medical terminology. So, some of the posts think we high schoolers don't have any HCE - well, I do! I got accepted to St Francis, King's & St. Johns all within 3 weeks of applying. I think the HCE made the difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Steve Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I question the accuracy of PA as a "second career" when many programs offer 0-6 options for 18 year olds coming straight from high school :)Hard to squeeze in the HCE aspect, but no worries about pre-reqs or getting a grad school seat ! So, seems to be the profession is open to different folks in different stages of life...and it all boils down to ability plus personal choice ! Just because an organization has developed a business plan to capture revenue does not mean that the end product of their business venture is of a quality that is on par with programs that take a different approach. I contend that there are many PA programs that simply exist to create money for their parent university. Do you truly believe that a 24 yo grad from a direct entry PA program is on par with a graduate who worked a few years in patient care prior to PA school? Would you take your own sick child to see that new PA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 To nnfoster: I hope your kid gets on this forum. I'm a senior, too. I have my CNA & this semester I'm getting surgical tech experience & am competing in Skills-USA for medical terminology. So, some of the posts think we high schoolers don't have any HCE - well, I do! I got accepted to St Francis, King's & St. Johns all within 3 weeks of applying. I think the HCE made the difference! How many HCE hours do you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 The direct entry 5-6 year programs are the exception, not the norm. HS students with HCE are the exception, not the norm. These programs are ok, I guess. They are accredited and they have acceptable PANCE rates. They follow the curriculum enough to allow continued accreditation. Here is the rub. Every NP, MD, or PA skeptic (there are many) that say PA isn't a high level provider (just an assistant) point to these type of programs as validation. The argument has always been, PA's are experienced allied heath professionals who are elevated to the next level. Frankly, that isn't true anymore. The NP profession uses the same logic...experienced nurse learns the fundamentals...then builds on that during NP school. We have all seen the impact direct entry programs have had on the NP profession...loss of credibility. The difference is they have had the ability to manipulate practice laws in their favor. 2 cents. Honestly, "to his there own". I will practice to the level that I am comfortable with when I graduate...as will others. I wonder what the difference will be, or if there even will be a difference. I'll tell you in 2 1/2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I question the accuracy of PA as a "second career" when many programs offer 0-6 options for 18 year olds coming straight from high school :)Hard to squeeze in the HCE aspect, but no worries about pre-reqs or getting a grad school seat ! So, seems to be the profession is open to different folks in different stages of life...and it all boils down to ability plus personal choice ! I would take this a lot more seriously if it was your son saying this and not his mother/father. I agree med school isn't for everyone. You are looking at this from the outside. The PAs on this board are commenting from their prespective of having BTDT and trying to help those who haven't set foot in a classroom yet or are students from some of the perils of the PA world. A final word. Some PA programs are simply in the business of making money not producing quality health care providers. There is much more to being a good PA than simply passing the PANCE. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaznugget Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Honestly, I can understand both sides of the argument. Being 25 and starting PA school on Monday (yikes!), I do have worries that I may feel a little annoyed one day that my scope of practice is limited after working in the field for 20+ years. It is something to think about. But, one of the reasons why I chose to apply to PA school because I have a deep respect for the profession. I love knowing that I am now becoming a part of something that can help out this country so much. PAs are a great solution to the physician shortage, by having more of us in rural areas, with the inner city poor and in primary care. It really is a wonderful profession! Being a younger person entering the profession, I feel comfort in knowing that I can still stick to the healthcare profession but branching off of it in different ways. I always have had an interest in getting my DHsc one day and changing up my career by teaching or being involved some way in a PA program somewhere. It would also be fascinating to get my PhD and dig deeper into research in the healthcare field. There are so many options out there! Personally, these options resonate with me. I guess my whole point is, being a PA does not have to be the 'end all' if one day you hit that ceiling. Exploring more ways to further healthcare in this country I think is a great idea (and what I hope to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfoster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Like most things in life...it depends...I am firm believer in the quality of care provided by midlevels...had my children with a certified nurse-midwife, my children had their pediatric care from an NP...and the one time my son saw an actual pediatrician for an acute and potentially life-threatening illness...the MD misdiagnosed him and it was an NP who made the correct dx 3 days later :) I would take my sick child to see a direct entry PA who had worked as an EMT since senior year of high school with excellent clinical background during PA school and graduated in the top of their class from a university with a top notch program before I'd take my sick child to a PA from whose patient care experience was as a nurse's aide at a nursing home and who had to re-take their pre-reqs to get a decent enough GPA to get into a mediocre PA program that was a revenue oriented "add-on" at a small 4 yr no name college (formerly a 2 yr college) Just because an organization has developed a business plan to capture revenue does not mean that the end product of their business venture is of a quality that is on par with programs that take a different approach. I contend that there are many PA programs that simply exist to create money for their parent university. Do you truly believe that a 24 yo grad from a direct entry PA program is on par with a graduate who worked a few years in patient care prior to PA school? Would you take your own sick child to see that new PA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnfoster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I agree that passing an exam does not a good PA (or anything) make :) With the cost of undergrad and med school education plus low med school acceptance rates for middle-class white males...a high senior at the top of their class at a private college prep school who does his research into healthcare careers, including volunteering and shadowing...should be encouraged to attend a top tier PA school and contribute positively to the profession, rather than discouraged or disparaged :) I would take this a lot more seriously if it was your son saying this and not his mother/father. I agree med school isn't for everyone. You are looking at this from the outside. The PAs on this board are commenting from their prespective of having BTDT and trying to help those who haven't set foot in a classroom yet or are students from some of the perils of the PA world. A final word. Some PA programs are simply in the business of making money not producing quality health care providers. There is much more to being a good PA than simply passing the PANCE. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorRRT Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I agree that passing an exam does not a good PA (or anything) make :) With the cost of undergrad and med school education plus low med school acceptance rates for middle-class white males...a high senior at the top of their class at a private college prep school who does his research into healthcare careers, including volunteering and shadowing...should be encouraged to attend a top tier PA school and contribute positively to the profession, rather than discouraged or disparaged :) https://www.aamc.org/download/321480/data/2012factstable12.pdf When making claims, it's best to cite data as opposed to making generalized statements based on opinion.:heheh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will352ns Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 ...should be encouraged to attend a top tier PA school and contribute positively to the profession, rather than discouraged or disparaged :) If you take a look at the top tier PA programs, it becomes obvious that they are looking for experienced applicants. They are not encouraging direct entry, nor will they bend on their HCE requirements. UW MEDEX Stanford Emory Utah Campbell Wake Forest UF To name a few. These are some of the "heavy hitters" when it comes to PA programs. No direct entry options and they measure the HCE requirements in the 1000's. Age has little to do with it, but experience counts in many of the "top tier" programs. If you look deeper into these and other programs, you will find that they select applicants who normally have 5-10 times the amount HCE "required". Sure, there are some that have the minimum...but they are the exception. To get experience, it takes time = older student. I start school this spring in a program that has ZERO HCE requirements (I have 20 years of HCE). That said, the profile of the current class has an average of 3000 HCE hours. Are you seeing the point? So....is it age that drives the more experienced PA's to say "go to Med school!" or is it the obvious lack of experience? It's both. Med schools have ZERO HCE requirements because the students will get about 3000 hours of HCE in Med School alone. Do you see the correlation? Med school admission rates for qualified applicants are about the same as the acceptance rates for PA schools. The PA pre-recs are only about 3-4 courses short for Med school. Why would someone encourage a young, bright, capable applicant go halfway? Again, to each their own. I have no animosity to younger PA students...they had the same chances as me and made the cut. I have the feeling I will be one of the few over 30's in my class....so I guess I better not:=D:. Once in school, what's done is done.... Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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