College kids being discouraged?

[rev ronin]

A new grad in any profession will not have interviewed for a job before..

Were you not reading what I wrote? As a new grad PA, I had interviewed in person at least a dozen times for professional positions, over the phone probably twice as many times, and had myself interviewed probably 30 candidates for professional positions as the hiring manager or as part of the interview team. Now I may not have interviewed PA's or for a PA position before, but 95% of interviews are the same: Can you do the job? Can we work with you? and Are you going to stick around? Experience in interviewing comes with... interviewing.

[nnfoster]

I cannot tell from your comments whether or not you are a parent.

 

However, as a middle class parent of three children, I can say that I would not encourage any of them, whatever their ambitions or goals, to undertake a program of study that would require loans. I was raised by Depression era parents who believed in buying only for what one could afford and making choices

based on one's ability to pay...and not to expect anyone else (govt, etc) to provide for you. Not bad advice, it has served me well and I wouldn't wish

any of my children to be burdened by years of debt.

 

You were given them.

They just don't fit your world view or pre-concieved notions about this profession or even the REAL world of clinical medicine.

 

If you are leaning your son away from MD/DO school because of $$$ HE (not you) will likely have regrets later. $250k in student loans to become a physician can easily be paid off by a multitude of programs with commitments.

 

If the "social stunting" you posted above is even partially true... your son is a EXCELLENT candidate with great potential for many MD programs and MOST DO programs.

 

But of course... YOU, he and every other 17 yr old on the planet know better than those who have been or is standing squarely where you claim he is headed.

 

Ok... carry on...

[EMEDPA]

yup. before interviewing for a pa job I had interviewed for the following:

security guard

college cafeteria worker

college RA (2 years, 2 interviews)

er tech ( 2 locations)

on campus health ctr medical asst/tech

emt(ambulance)

paramedic( 5 depts)

[Lead Pipe]

Were you not reading what I wrote? As a new grad PA, I had interviewed in person at least a dozen times for professional positions, over the phone probably twice as many times, and had myself interviewed probably 30 candidates for professional positions as the hiring manager or as part of the interview team. Now I may not have interviewed PA's or for a PA position before, but 95% of interviews are the same: Can you do the job? Can we work with you? and Are you going to stick around? Experience in interviewing comes with... interviewing.

 

I took what you said to mean that as an older grad, you had interview skills that some of your fellow PA students had not, and that this was one advantage to starting at a later age. By "new grad" I meant someone straight out of college in any profession, I should have clarified. I don't think having interview skills is a good enough reason to wait to go to PA school, and I don't think it has anything to do with being a good provider.

[rev ronin]

I don't think having interview skills is a good enough reason to wait to go to PA school, and I don't think it has anything to do with being a good provider.

 

By itself? Of course not. It was just an example of skills and life experiences that I have that my classmates 15+ years younger than I did not. And don't get me wrong: They're some of the sweetest, smartest, most dedicated, most passionate people I know--I am proud of my classmates, regardless of their ages. But prior to interviewing for jobs, most of them had to figure out what of their accomplishments were important enough put on their CV's, while I had to decide which ones were not important enough to stay on a focused CV.

[Contrarian]

I cannot tell from your comments whether or not you are a parent.

 

However, as a middle class parent of three children, I can say that I would not encourage any of them, whatever their ambitions or goals, to undertake a program of study that would require loans. I was raised by Depression era parents who believed in buying only for what one could afford and making choices

based on one's ability to pay...and not to expect anyone else (govt, etc) to provide for you. Not bad advice, it has served me well and I wouldn't wish

any of my children to be burdened by years of debt.

 

Sigh... whether or not I have children is irrelevent to this discussion.

Sounds like you are imposing your "depression era" beliefs on your children and in the process severly limiting their actualization potential ...

 

Which is what was being alluded to above when several folks suggested that your son... should be here and NOT you. But I guess that the indoc wouldn't work if you let/encourage him to do that. Also, since its HIS life... shouldn't it be him to decide if he wants to take out $1-$1,000,000+ in loans...??? Who are YOU to discourage HIM from doing so...????

 

Especially since you have done so well to convince us that he isn't a normal 17 yr old. Your interfering, and obstructing could cost this podigy child of yours the Nobel Prize.

 

Ohh... and having medical school paid for because you chose to work in the US Armed Forces, with PHS, with IHS, BOP, State Department, in a HPSA isn't a "hand-out." It provides needed care to underserved populations and should actually be encouraged and celebrated as outstanding community service.

 

Also.... I guess none of your children will ever own a home (depression era style) since ya'll don't do loans...

 

Good Luck.

[nnfoster]

actually, I believe they will all own homes, as do I ( with mortgage paid off early ), because we "don't do loans"...i.e. no car loans, educational loans,

no balances on credit cards, etc. Without any other "payments" to make, it was not difficult to afford a modest mortgage and substantial down

payment :) Indeed, paying off college loans might prevent a young adult from being able to buy a first home.

 

Sigh... whether or not I have children is irrelevent to this discussion.

Sounds like you are imposing your "depression era" beliefs on your children and in the process severly limiting their actualization potential ...

 

Having medical school paid for because you chose to work in the US Armed Forces, with PHS, with IHS, in a HPSA isn't a "hand-out." It provides needed care to underserved populations and should actually be encouraged and celebrated as outstanding community service.

 

Also.... I guess none of your children will ever own a home (depression era style) since ya'll don't do loans...

 

Good Luck.

[Joelseff]

I would argue that raw intelligence often correlates with competence, & that MOST (there are always exceptions) highly intelligent individuals who go through a really good PA program will become competent and knowledgeable providers.

 

It's important to note that the respect of the profession has a lot to do with the attitudes of those in it. Instead of the PA profession being sort of a "well I didn't know when I was younger that I should have gone to med school...I guess this will do," people are seeing this is the profession that the "smart kids" are going into.

 

So are experience and intelligence mutually exclusive? Are youngsters the only ones with good GPAs? Yah try again....my cohort in my class had good GPAs (mid to high 3s) but we had a quality the youngsters did not, nay could not, bring to the table. That's years (that's right years! Some of us decades!) Of HCE, so if we want our best foot fwd as PAs we should embrace the high GPA achievers WITH tons of HCE... Not nix the HCE requirement in lieu of high grades only...

 

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[Lead Pipe]

So are experience and intelligence mutually exclusive? Are youngsters the only ones with good GPAs? Yah try again....my cohort in my class had good GPAs (mid to high 3s) but we had a quality the youngsters did not, nay could not, bring to the table. That's years (that's right years! Some of us decades!) Of HCE, so if we want our best foot fwd as PAs we should embrace the high GPA achievers WITH tons of HCE... Not nix the HCE requirement in lieu of high grades only...

 

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If you look at the quote that I was responding to, I was arguing that intelligence correlates with competence, and how this affects the reputation of the PA profession. HCE was never mentioned. With few exceptions, most things known through HCE (EMT, CNA, medical asst, paramedic) will be taught in the PA curriculum (and I would assume anything not taught in the PA program would be out of a PA's scope of practice regardless of prior knowledge anyway). These people definitely have an advantage during school, and may bring a lot to the table during schooling, but after all of the schooling they should end up with the same level of competence. If the PA program does not teach all of the technical skills necessary to be a good PA, then there needs to be a change in the curriculum. Do you think the PA programs now are not thorough enough to send out competent PAs if they don't have previous HCE?

[Joelseff]

If you look at the quote that I was responding to, I was arguing that intelligence correlates with competence, and how this affects the reputation of the PA profession. HCE was never mentioned. With few exceptions, most things known through HCE (EMT, CNA, medical asst, paramedic) will be taught in the PA curriculum (and I would assume anything not taught in the PA program would be out of a PA's scope of practice regardless of prior knowledge anyway). These people definitely have an advantage during school, and may bring a lot to the table during schooling, but after all of the schooling they should end up with the same level of competence. If the PA program does not teach all of the technical skills necessary to be a good PA, then there needs to be a change in the curriculum. Do you think the PA programs now are not thorough enough to send out competent PAs if they don't have previous HCE?

 

Being taught a skill and possessing proficiency in that skill are 2 different things. We learned I&Ds and suturing etc in school but a new grad who has never done it before will be behind someone who did it for years before PA school. This is why medical residencies are POST school training and they are many years in length so the practitioner (in this case a doc) won't look like a total stooge his first day out. We as practitioners may not be expected by our employers fresh out of school to have thus competence bit bet your @$$ the pts expect it. PA school is do truncated that you will not develop this proficiency during school. These BASIC skills should have been grasped before PA school b/c you learn so much other stuff that te basics are not really taught in PA school. Reason being is a PA is NOT an entry level medical profession...

 

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[Lead Pipe]

Being taught a skill and possessing proficiency in that skill are 2 different things. We learned I&Ds and suturing etc in school but a new grad who has never done it before will be behind someone who did it for years before PA school. This is why medical residencies are POST school training and they are many years in length so the practitioner (in this case a doc) won't look like a total stroke his first day out. We as practitioners may not be expected by our employers fresh out of school to have thus competence bit bet your @$$ the pts expect it.

 

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I agree with you but the vast majority of things learned in PA school would be new to anyone. The overlap between the HCE that most people have and what is taught in PA school is so small that your argument that two years of PA school without any pre or post school training is not enough could be used for even those PAs with HCE.

[Joelseff]

Double post

[nnfoster]

If PA is "not an entry level medical profession"...then why are there numerous accredited PA programs that are 0-6 programs, and describe themselves

as "entry level master's physician assistant" programs ? My son has been accepted at four of them for Fall 2013.

 

Being taught a skill and possessing proficiency in that skill are 2 different things. We learned I&Ds and suturing etc in school but a new grad who has never done it before will be behind someone who did it for years before PA school. This is why medical residencies are POST school training and they are many years in length so the practitioner (in this case a doc) won't look like a total stooge his first day out. We as practitioners may not be expected by our employers fresh out of school to have thus competence bit bet your @$$ the pts expect it. PA school is do truncated that you will not develop this proficiency during school. These BASIC skills should have been grasped before PA school b/c you learn so much other stuff that te basics are not really taught in PA school. Reason being is a PA is NOT an entry level medical profession...

 

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[cac4488]

Read the rest of the thread... Because people want to make money and kids wanting shortcuts are great targets. How many of those are top, well respected programs??? And yes WE ALL KNOW HOW AWESOME YOUR SON IS!!! CONGRATS!

[Lead Pipe]

Sorry I didn't see your edit. Would you consider EMT-B or CNA good HCE? If so, I would argue that these skills are SO basic that if someone can't become proficient at these things in less than a week they shouldn't be a PA. If you're talking about paramedic/nurse HCE I might agree with you; I haven't been through PA school so I can't argue whether or not they thoroughly teach the basics, but as the PA school that I'm going to is a 0-5 one, I would hope that they alter the curriculum slightly to include these basics.

[GatorRRT]

I agree with you but the vast majority of things learned in PA school would be new to anyone. The overlap between the HCE that most people have and what is taught in PA school is so small that your argument that two years of PA school without any pre or post school training is not enough could be used for even those PAs with HCE.

 

Being a Pre-pa student, you have no idea about the presence/absence of overlap in regards to PA school and HCE. For someone like myself with training in cardiopulmonary science and years in the field, the overlap is huge: arterial line placement, emergent intubation, patient assessment, management of critically ill patients . . .

Please don't talk like you've been there, done that until you actually arrive.

[Lead Pipe]

Read the rest of the thread... Because people want to make money and kids wanting shortcuts are great targets. How many of those are top, well respected programs??? And yes WE ALL KNOW HOW AWESOME YOUR SON IS!!! CONGRATS!

 

Actually if you look at one of my earlier posts on this thread many of them are top, well respected programs. Among these are Quinnipiac, Duquesne, St. Francis, and Drexel. I'd encourage you to look at their websites and do some research on them.

[Joelseff]

I agree with you but the vast majority of things learned in PA school would be new to anyone. The overlap between the HCE that most people have and what is taught in PA school is so small that your argument that two years of PA school without any pre or post school training is not enough could be used for even those PAs with HCE.

 

That's the thing they weren't really new to us they were building on a foundation most, if not all of us in our class already possessed, then again I went to an old school program. They added layers (by no means was it easy) and depth to our existing fund of knowledge. That's my experience as one who went through and graduated pa school and who is now practicing as a PA. You my friend are a pre pa and like many of you who have come on here lately presume too much about something you have not even started yet. You haven't even begin yet you choose to pontificate from your presumptions....whatever. It's a new PA world I guess. I still say PA programs must require BOTH HCE and GPA....is that so hard? O dis it, many pas here did it and most if not all of us got the grades while juggling a FT job and an adult life. But whatever. I got charting to finish....

 

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[Lead Pipe]

Being a Pre-pa student, you have no idea about the presence/abscene of overlap in regards to PA school and HCE. For someone like myself with training in cardiopulmonary science and years in the field, the overlap is huge: procedures (arterial line placement, emergent intubation, patient assessment, management of critically ill patients . . . )

Please don't talk like you've been there, done that until you actually arrive.

 

I said "I haven't been through PA school so I can't argue whether or not they thoroughly teach the basics" I actually agreed that advanced HCE like yours would have a huge overlap, but I believe that if someone cannot go through a PA program that accepts those with no HCE and cannot come out a good PA, the curriculum should be changed.

 

I am still very genuinely curious whether or not there are things left out of PA programs because they except student to have known these things from their HCE.

[cac4488]

Okay what about developing skills such as bedside manner, communication skills, working on a team with healthcare providers, establishing rapport, patience, intangibles that come with not hours but months and years of experience? Part of getting that experience is getting a recommendation from someone you work under that testifies that you have developed these skills and belong in healthcare. Even better - that you can maintain composure doing this long term and day after day. Not just after school for a few hours, not just for a summer. If you're 17 and volunteer here and there, you have in no way demonstrated that you can tolerate and excel in the continuously stressful and service-based industry that is medicine. Period.

[BenRRT]

If PA is "not an entry level medical profession"...then why are there numerous accredited PA programs that are 0-6 programs, and describe themselves

as "entry level master's physician assistant" programs ? My son has been accepted at four of them for Fall 2013.

 

PA should not be an entry level medical profession. Unfortunately, thanks to these 0-6 year programs, this field is leaning towards entry level.

[nnfoster]

absolutely all important skills ! But, let's hypothesize that perhaps a 6 year program has time to inculcate an entry level practitioner with these skills that wouldn't be possible in the 27 month grad program. Much can be learned, both in the classroom and out of it in six years :)

If these direct entry 0-6 programs were as inadequate as some posters here feel...how would they get and keep their accreditation ?

 

Okay what about developing skills such as bedside manner, communication skills, working on a team with healthcare providers, establishing rapport, patience, intangibles that come with not hours but months and years of experience? Part of getting that experience is getting a recommendation from someone you work under that testifies that you have developed these skills and belong in healthcare. Even better - that you can maintain composure doing this long term and day after day. Not just after school for a few hours, not just for a summer. If you're 17 and volunteer here and there, you have in no way demonstrated that you can tolerate and excel in the continuously stressful and service-based industry that is medicine. Period.

[Lead Pipe]

Okay what about developing skills such as bedside manner, communication skills, working on a team with healthcare providers, establishing rapport, patience, intangibles that come with not hours but months and years of experience? Part of getting that experience is getting a recommendation from someone you work under that testifies that you have developed these skills and belong in healthcare. Even better - that you can maintain composure doing this long term and day after day. Not just after school for a few hours, not just for a summer. If you're 17 and volunteer here and there, you have in no way demonstrated that you can tolerate and excel in the continuously stressful and service-based industry that is medicine. Period.

 

This has gone from a "college students should go to med school" discussion to a "PA students should have large amounts of HCE" one. We are being encouraged to go to med school, where there are very little hce requirements, but at the same time told that we need hce to gain bedside manner. Most people go into med school with very little hce.

[Joelseff]

If PA is "not an entry level medical profession"...then why are there numerous accredited PA programs that are 0-6 programs, and describe themselves

as "entry level master's physician assistant" programs ? My son has been accepted at four of them for Fall 2013.

 

Because those schools are mills...I dont care if your son got into a program tat calls itself "advanced level..." The practice of medicine in the scope of a practitioner is NOT an entry level position...I AM a PA! It is NOT entry level...we should not head down the way of the NP profession in terms if training and schooling. I have held many entry level medical positions and PA is so much more. We are held to the sane standard as MDs but without the benefit of their residencies.

 

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[Lead Pipe]

PA should not be an entry level medical profession. Unfortunately, thanks to these 0-6 year programs, this field is leaning towards entry level.

 

Do you think if PA programs were extended to three years, even though there are some already (with the first being dedicated to "the basics") you would be okay with it being entry level? What I'm trying to get at is why there is so much resistance to this being entry level.