Moderator ventana Posted May 3, 2023 Author Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2023 1 hour ago, EMEDPA said: Shenandoah is 1 semester to 2 years, depending on course load, and 12k https://www.su.edu/physician-assistant/doctor-of-medical-science/ VERY interesting...... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted May 3, 2023 Share Posted May 3, 2023 Question for the group: Long term PA here. Maybe go to the darkside of admin some day in the next 10 yrs. What degree would you get at this stage? and why? Masters Healthcare Admin MBA DMSc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted May 3, 2023 Author Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2023 I have an MBA and going to get a DMSc soon. MBA has not helped to much hoping for the DMSc to be better maybe 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted May 3, 2023 Share Posted May 3, 2023 42 minutes ago, ventana said: I have an MBA and going to get a DMSc soon. MBA has not helped to much hoping for the DMSc to be better maybe I have decided to go the route of ass kissing. PhD never helped me break into admin so I am going with what has always worked for people historically. >applies chapstick< 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted May 4, 2023 Administrator Share Posted May 4, 2023 I think the ATSU DMSc program leadership track has much better prepared me for admin, but it would help even more for anyone who hasn't worked in the for-profit sector, been a people manager, etc., like I had done pre-PA. It's also done far more than my MS in PA Studies ever did to prepare me to actually do research. If I was able to have done that on a full time basis, rather than just doing a capstone project while working multiple clinical jobs, I would probably have gotten even more out of it. Now, am I going to want to be in admin? Well, if I have to, I guess I will, but I started my own practice so I wouldn't have to go Scott's route. I've gone from me to two of us now, adding #3 next month, with a vision to get to 5 people by the end of the year... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted May 4, 2023 Share Posted May 4, 2023 10 hours ago, ventana said: I have an MBA and going to get a DMSc soon. MBA has not helped to much hoping for the DMSc to be better maybe What is the end goal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patho Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 (edited) A former colleague and friend of mine just got her DMsc @ lynchburg several months ago. I asked her why and her response was "I work in telehealth, low stress job, I have time, might as well work on myself." She couldn't really explain to me her vision for the DMsc. However after receiving her degree she was able to renegotiate her salary and got a massive pay bump but nothing has really changed about her work. Can anyone share how the DMsc has advance their career? I am now considering it to possibly increase my salary but is that a good enough reason, also I might be too expensive by then. Or is the possibility of one day I might be in admin or education a good enough reason? The main reason is I'm in my mid-30's and feel like I still have the stamina and tolerance for a littler more education but this might not be the case later. Thank you. Edited May 5, 2023 by Patho 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 That is my basic question - what good is a Masters of Health Admin vs MBA vs DMSc? None of these will increase my pay off the bat as a federal employee but would make me a candidate for leadership or admin positions which somehow MD/DO are automatically considered qualified for with no extra education............ If I got to an admin position - my grade and step would change for more money. If I stay 100% clinical, they get me bupkus and I am out money or have a loan. You can't bill more for a 99214 just because I got another degree. Do the educational programs actually offer skills that are usable on a daily basis or applicable to admin? If so, which one and why? If going to school only proves I can go to school - well, why? I am leaning to Masters in Healthcare Admin for admin/leadership positions. I don't think DMSc will help me at all and my experience to date is that DMSc is HUGE on research for which I have ZERO interest. Thoughts, comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patho Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Reality Check 2 said: That is my basic question - what good is a Masters of Health Admin vs MBA vs DMSc? None of these will increase my pay off the bat as a federal employee but would make me a candidate for leadership or admin positions which somehow MD/DO are automatically considered qualified for with no extra education............ If I got to an admin position - my grade and step would change for more money. If I stay 100% clinical, they get me bupkus and I am out money or have a loan. You can't bill more for a 99214 just because I got another degree. Do the educational programs actually offer skills that are usable on a daily basis or applicable to admin? If so, which one and why? If going to school only proves I can go to school - well, why? I am leaning to Masters in Healthcare Admin for admin/leadership positions. I don't think DMSc will help me at all and my experience to date is that DMSc is HUGE on research for which I have ZERO interest. Thoughts, comments? MHA is more recognizable, its obvious what the degree is meant for, DMSc has some explaining to do. But a doctorate degree is more impressive on paper than another masters degree. I would put it to the program to tell you how it competes/differs with MHA for the admin track since we're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing us. Right or wrong, I'm of the mindset that the next degree should always be a more advanced one than the previous in similar fields. I would not obtain multiple masters. In this case I would go for the DMSc admin track over the MHA if the program can make a credible case. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 I have not found a DMSc program TRULY focused on admin/leadership. They beat research TO DEATH. I don't want anything to do with research or vetting research articles. If a DMSc program advertises leadership tract then they better have one. Butler does but it is ONLY TWO classes - nope. I would be better off getting a PhD in Education. And the money is still an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 Out in the world business degrees are more likely to land you in the executive suite than a doctoral degree in something PA or health related. I have had a PhD in Health Administration for 12 years or so and the only thing it helped me with is some street cred when I was lobbying. It never did a thing for me at work as far as transitioning into an admin position. Medicine is a business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayamom Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 Can't you teach with an advanced degree? I would have loved to taught PA school but was not able due to not having a master degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted May 6, 2023 Share Posted May 6, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Patho said: A former colleague and friend of mine just got her DMsc @ lynchburg several months ago. I asked her why and her response was "I work in telehealth, low stress job, I have time, might as well work on myself." She couldn't really explain to me her vision for the DMsc. However after receiving her degree she was able to renegotiate her salary and got a massive pay bump but nothing has really changed about her work. Can anyone share how the DMsc has advance their career? I am now considering it to possibly increase my salary but is that a good enough reason, also I might be too expensive by then. Or is the possibility of one day I might be in admin or education a good enough reason? The main reason is I'm in my mid-30's and feel like I still have the stamina and tolerance for a littler more education but this might not be the case later. Thank you. More than half of NPs are coming out with their DNPs (and supposedly all NP programs will transition to DNP entry at some point..). At least in my field, employers actually love NPs and PAs with their doctorates.. 10 hours ago, Reality Check 2 said: I have not found a DMSc program TRULY focused on admin/leadership. They beat research TO DEATH. I don't want anything to do with research or vetting research articles. If a DMSc program advertises leadership tract then they better have one. Butler does but it is ONLY TWO classes - nope. I would be better off getting a PhD in Education. And the money is still an issue. I mean you probably shouldn't get a doctorate degree without at least some research skills in.. Most programs it's fairly superficial. In fact I really wonder how much LynchburgU can really cram in 1 year.. Edited May 6, 2023 by iconic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeddyRucpin Posted May 6, 2023 Share Posted May 6, 2023 10 hours ago, iconic said: More than half of NPs are coming out with their DNPs (and supposedly all NP programs will transition to DNP entry at some point..). At least in my field, employers actually love NPs and PAs with their doctorates.. I mean you probably shouldn't get a doctorate degree without at least some research skills in.. Most programs it's fairly superficial. In fact I really wonder how much LynchburgU can really cram in 1 year.. It's not IF but WHEN PAs are going to all get doctorates. Or "upgrade" to one. The profession has been doing this for a long time with increase in length of education, credits, and degrees. However, I'd like to see one of the top-ranked PA programs/universities do this at some point soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farafish260 Posted May 14, 2023 Share Posted May 14, 2023 On 5/3/2023 at 2:31 PM, Reality Check 2 said: Question for the group: Long term PA here. Maybe go to the darkside of admin some day in the next 10 yrs. What degree would you get at this stage? and why? Masters Healthcare Admin MBA DMSc MBA all the way...my physician mentors say it's the fastest way to get out from the bedside and into admin. What complicated this is the DMS is now considered the "expected" doctorate for PAs so you might have to still get it as a formality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farafish260 Posted May 28, 2023 Share Posted May 28, 2023 On 5/6/2023 at 12:20 PM, TeddyRucpin said: It's not IF but WHEN PAs are going to all get doctorates. Or "upgrade" to one. The profession has been doing this for a long time with increase in length of education, credits, and degrees. However, I'd like to see one of the top-ranked PA programs/universities do this at some point soon. What do you see a the end goal for PAs with doctorates that DO NOT WANT to work in academia, managerial roles, etc....I mean strictly direct patient care day to day work...MDs hold doctorates because they are independent, DNPs the same (even though it's a scam). So what would a PA WITH a PA doctorate be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted May 29, 2023 Administrator Share Posted May 29, 2023 On 5/28/2023 at 5:27 AM, Farafish260 said: So what would a PA WITH a PA doctorate be? Right now? A PA with a doctorate. In the future? TBD. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookiePA Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 I looked into shenandoah's program and to complete one year you only need 30 credits total-- 14 of those transfer over from your MS PA. The course load however is concerning and it seems bare minimum? 1. My question is, anyone going to monitor these programs in some way to make sure we are getting some quality degrees? My biggest fear is committing to a program that looks good on paper and then later finding out that the medical community is looking down upon it for one reason or another making it a waste of time and $$. Is this fear even valid ....? 2. My second question is anyone here thinks DMsc is NOT needed for admin role? Based on my experience we have had to fight tooth and nail to land PAs in roles at our hospital system. Most roles only look to promote current RNs or MDs who are already in line waiting. I can not figure out if DMSc will actually give me a boost or do I just have to continue to fight and ask for a seat? It is obviously a lot of political game, who knows who etc. but It would be nice to know my DMSc can hold some ground? My goal for doctorate is : staying competitive (because let's be honest we will have to), a route to get out of bedside into teaching and/or admin. I am hoping for admin focused classes that I can highlight when I apply for admin jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted May 30, 2023 Author Moderator Share Posted May 30, 2023 On 5/28/2023 at 8:27 AM, Farafish260 said: What do you see a the end goal for PAs with doctorates that DO NOT WANT to work in academia, managerial roles, etc....I mean strictly direct patient care day to day work...MDs hold doctorates because they are independent, DNPs the same (even though it's a scam). So what would a PA WITH a PA doctorate be? it is a political game NPs are doctors and the politicians get this, the public gets it, the press gets it we are ass istants oops I mean associates.... what the heck is that? By going to a DMSc it will allow us similar latitude professionally that other professionals have realized.... We are already educated at the doctorate level, just award the degree already.... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, ventana said: We are already educated at the doctorate level, just award the degree already.... There is no money in it and schools are making bank on doctoral programs. When we had already done masters level work but had BS degrees several schools created bridge programs. Do some clinical work and write a paper. BAM! Not gonna happen this time. The die is already cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookiePA Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) On 5/23/2020 at 5:22 PM, iconic said: Lynchburg can be completed in 4 semesters (12 months), 25k Rocky Mountain - can also be completed in 4 semesters(16 months) 27k. Might be able to transfer some coursework to make it cheaper. AT Still - 18k, not sure how long They have somewhat different curriculums and track options, so I’d look at that too AT still is now 44,940$ Total tuition cost they will give you 7 years to complete it or you can finish it early. how is this not a scam. Edited May 30, 2023 by CookiePA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, CookiePA said: AT still is now 44,940$ Total tuition cost they will give you 7 years to complete it or you can finish it early. how is this not a scam. ATSU is $650 a credit x 36 so 24k.. but there are programs out there in 40k range https://catalog.atsu.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=20&poid=475 Edited May 30, 2023 by iconic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted May 30, 2023 Administrator Share Posted May 30, 2023 4 hours ago, Hemmingway said: When we had already done masters level work but had BS degrees several schools created bridge programs. Do some clinical work and write a paper. BAM! Not gonna happen this time. The die is already cast. I dunno.... some of the DMSc programs are pretty trivial. I just finished two years at ATSU, and I don't think I could have shoehorned the learning into one on-campus full-time semester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CookiePA Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, iconic said: ATSU is $650 a credit x 36 so 24k.. but there are programs out there in 40k range https://catalog.atsu.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=20&poid=475 Is this updated? Because I talked to someone in admissions department and they said 44k…. edit- it says 23-24 not sure why I was quoted 44k. Edited May 30, 2023 by CookiePA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted May 31, 2023 Administrator Share Posted May 31, 2023 2 hours ago, CookiePA said: Is this updated? Because I talked to someone in admissions department and they said 44k…. They may have been talking about the DHSc, which is a longer, more research-oriented program. The ATSU DMSc is still a good deal... just not quite as good a deal as initially. I had a past AAPA president in my cohort. ATSU has a strong history with PAs and with medicine in general, so I'm happy to have chosen it, now that I'm done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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