Joelseff Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Anyone know anything about Vit K2? I've done some research and it sounds, to me, it's just another Fad magic cure pushed upon our magic pill seeking pts. I have at least 3-5 pts per week that asks me about this and I tell them I don't know much about it but give them my usual answer of "so I cannot recommend it but will look into it." and I have looked into it but there is not much out there on it from reliable sources. The pts apparently are already taking daily supplements of this. I have heard pts say that "they read online" or "heard from a friend (or naturopath or chiro or nurse friend or magic genie whatever) that it is known that deficiencies of K2 are linked to CVD, atherosclerosis, DM etc... Maybe even global warming [emoji848] What I do know or at least from my research is that we are unable to test for levels which leads me to ask then how do we know if we are deficient? Also the daily recommended dose is miniscule. Like 0.01mg/kg. It is found with K1 so any green leafy vegetable or other K rich foods contain it. And since it is miniscule in necessary daily intake, won't a serving of broccoli be enough? I usually don't recommend supplements since I think a bunch of it is overreaction by some researcher or practitioner who has found the "magic source." I do recommend B12 and D etc for those who are ACTUALLY deficient confirmed by serum studies. And I only treat to replete not to have super high levels. Much to the chagrin of my many B12 injection addicts (inherited pts) who swear they still need a B12 shot even though their current level is ">2000" on their labs. [emoji849] And recent studies have shown MVI and most supplementation has no effect on disease or mortality... Anyhoo, just wanted to pick you guys' brains and see if I'm missing something here. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 I would worry that intense supplementation of any vitamin K derivative would lead to hypercoaguable states and more cva, pe, dvt, etc types of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 I am a big fan of this K2. Met the first American to summit it a few years ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, EMEDPA said: I am a big fan of this K2. Met the first American to summit it a few years ago... Whittaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted December 10, 2018 Administrator Share Posted December 10, 2018 I thought K2 was a brand name of synthetic "Bath Salts"? Could definitely lead to confusion... (I mean, people could just want to get high and not fail a drug screen, and instead they end up on this ginormous mountain...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 I would worry that intense supplementation of any vitamin K derivative would lead to hypercoaguable states and more cva, pe, dvt, etc types of issues.Oh of course. If I see anyone on anticoags esp warfarin I would tell them to DC the K2.Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkertdm Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Ponce DeLeon would be proud, we're still looking for the fountain of youth. Testosterone, b12, d, c, puppies...but people don't listen when lipids, exercise, smoking cessation are on the table. Anytime someone says "I saw on" or " I read on" I want to bang my head on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 Ponce DeLeon would be proud, we're still looking for the fountain of youth. Testosterone, b12, d, c, puppies...but people don't listen when lipids, exercise, smoking cessation are on the table. Anytime someone says "I saw on" or " I read on" I want to bang my head on the table. This is my biggest issue. These "newfound health fanatics" are usually boomers who have and continue to neglect my usual advice on nutrition and exercise and to take the meds that are already prescribed but they get on a kick about knowing something the provider is "not educated" on. I had one last week who has an a1c of 9.5 and won't take even Metformin because "im a chef and know about nutrition and I drink apple cider vinegar and drink black horseradish mushroom tea 2x a day so my sugar should not be a problem" although she never checks her sugars oh and she has fibromyalgia an d that explains why her labs are wonky lol. Maybe a psych referral is in order. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check 2 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5494092/#!po=6.81818 This is an article on the K vitamins. Has some evidence base in it. To date, no one has asked me about this one.... just cursed myself. Side note - used to work with a doc in Texas who got into the vitamin urine fad/nonsense where you had your urine tested and the “missing” vitamins were your deficit and the pyramid company she bought into would custom make you a vitamin based on what wasn’t in your pee. Amazing what folks will do to avoid eating real food - millions of dollars in supplements but won’t buy healthy food - go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkertdm Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I can see the press ganey reviews now- "the assistant told me to eat fruits and vegetables...I never even saw the doctor...I wasted my TIME!!...I don't have a lot to do and a lot of time to do it in....I am very deficient in bu11s#1t protein and they wouldn't test for it, but "The Doctors" told me I had to have it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 13 hours ago, jmj11 said: Whittaker? Jim Wickwire. he gave a talk in Portland with a slide show a few years ago about his ascent of K2 and surviving the highest overnight bivouac in history near the summit. I got him to sign a copy of his book for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wickwire https://www.amazon.com/Addicted-Danger-Affirming-Life-Death/dp/0671019910 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 4 hours ago, EMEDPA said: Jim Wickwire. he gave a talk in Portland with a slide show a few years ago about his ascent of K2 and surviving the highest overnight bivouac in history near the summit. I got him to sign a copy of his book for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wickwire https://www.amazon.com/Addicted-Danger-Affirming-Life-Death/dp/0671019910 So, I guess the other Jim W organized the climb and Wickwire s the one who made it to the summit. I watched this movie again last night after thinking about K2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 ADEK are fat soluble vitamins, it is possible to overdose on them.... every article i have read recently is that we eat enough fortified foods unless we have a mal absorption syndrome or some chronic disease we do not need any supplemental vitamins.... period... nope not for me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkertdm Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 37 minutes ago, ventana said: ADEK are fat soluble vitamins, it is possible to overdose on them.... every article i have read recently is that we eat enough fortified foods unless we have a mal absorption syndrome or some chronic disease we do not need any supplemental vitamins.... period... nope not for me..... If the articles aren't sold next to the check out lane at Walmart, they mean nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 ADEK are fat soluble vitamins, it is possible to overdose on them.... every article i have read recently is that we eat enough fortified foods unless we have a mal absorption syndrome or some chronic disease we do not need any supplemental vitamins.... period... nope not for me.....I'm of the same mind set. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HanSolo Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 On the talk of ADEK vitamins, a friend of mine recently told me his dog became hypercalcemic 2/2 vitamin D excess. Apparently it has been a recent problem: https://www.oregonlive.com/expo/news/erry-2018/12/a840c7efac3142/list-of-dog-food-brands-recall.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 11, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 11, 2018 20 hours ago, jmj11 said: So, I guess the other Jim W organized the climb and Wickwire s the one who made it to the summit. I watched this movie again last night after thinking about K2: Whitaker was first American to summit Everest. I met Ed Viesturs a few years ago too( only American to complete all 14 8000 meter peaks and 5th ever to use no o2). Nice guy. Also signed a book for me. http://www.edviesturs.com/about-ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoTrion Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I went to conference where this was discussed. Vitamin K2 does not effect blood thinners, but I will admit it was a BioTe conference. Several MDs in different disciplines were presenting, so it wasn't like unproven science or a chiro presenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MediMike Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 I had an RN on our CCU bring up our seeming negligence for not utilizing K2 in front of one of our patients on rounds. Referenced the fine Dr. Mercola. Shut that down real fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 11, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 11, 2018 I have been using Thiamine, steroids, and Vitamin C for sepsis, 1.5gm IV. There are a few ongoing studies showing it may help. https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)62564-3/fulltext Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 I went to conference where this was discussed. Vitamin K2 does not effect blood thinners, but I will admit it was a BioTe conference. Several MDs in different disciplines were presenting, so it wasn't like unproven science or a chiro presenting. I get that much since K1 is the one that interferes with Warfarin but what about the actual repletion or need for repletion of K2? Did they address that? How was it measured in serum to determine there was in fact deficiency? If so how much were we to prescribe and how do we monitor repletion? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinkertdm Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 When I get a patient who has a bmi of 23, runs 5 miles a day, is a vegan, gets all his preventative health screenings, then I will discuss minutiae like micronutrient deficiency. Until then, I'm going for the lowest hanging fruit of obesity, sleep apnea, smoking, and diabetes management. Because your* (the patient, I respect your opinion Joelseff) vitamin oz baloney ain't the thing making you fatigued, cranky, and worn out; it's your lifestyle. Like checking your texts every five minutes. Your lack of interpersonal relationships but "liking" every Facebook post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgriffiths Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 11 hours ago, thinkertdm said: When I get a patient who has a bmi of 23, runs 5 miles a day, is a vegan, gets all his preventative health screenings, then I will discuss minutiae like micronutrient deficiency. Until then, I'm going for the lowest hanging fruit of obesity, sleep apnea, smoking, and diabetes management. Because your* (the patient, I respect your opinion Joelseff) vitamin oz baloney ain't the thing making you fatigued, cranky, and worn out; it's your lifestyle. Like checking your texts every five minutes. Your lack of interpersonal relationships but "liking" every Facebook post. This cannot be liked enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelseff Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 I have been using Thiamine, steroids, and Vitamin C for sepsis, 1.5gm IV. There are a few ongoing studies showing it may help. https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)62564-3/fulltextI wonder how much of the heavy lifting was from the steroids vs the thiamine and Vit C. [emoji848] Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 12, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 12, 2018 5 hours ago, Joelseff said: I wonder how much of the heavy lifting was from the steroids vs the thiamine and Vit C. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk some, but apparently both Vit C and steroids by themselves have an impact on sepsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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