Hope2PA Posted December 27, 2022 Share Posted December 27, 2022 Any reason, other than time effort and money, that DMSc could create own certifying board? It's not like there has been overwhelming progress or desire to really consider the state that younger PAs are going to be in as NPs gain FPA in all states. Rather than spending the time, energy and money on the current status, make your own damn path. There were around 14,000 DOs in 1960 at the time they gained federal recognition, because they tried. NPs have federal independence, because they tried, PA's don't want it, so how many DMS or DMSc are there now?, and why not try at this level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeddyRucpin Posted December 27, 2022 Share Posted December 27, 2022 9 hours ago, iconic said: They sound clueless (once again who on their faculty even leads the program?). ARC-PA does not accredit Doctorate Programs for PAs. I would like to see reputable schools start DMSc programs, instead of these money grab places If anyone is interested in ARC-PA work: https://www.papathpodcast.com/s3e50-ARCPA/ She actually comments that ARC-PA does not want to be involved with setting requirements for Doctorate programs for PAs Any idea of when any of the big name programs is going to add a doctorate? We need some reputable, heavy hitters to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 28, 2022 Moderator Share Posted December 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Hope2PA said: Any reason, other than time effort and money, that DMSc could create own certifying board? It's not like there has been overwhelming progress or desire to really consider the state that younger PAs are going to be in as NPs gain FPA in all states. Rather than spending the time, energy and money on the current status, make your own damn path. There were around 14,000 DOs in 1960 at the time they gained federal recognition, because they tried. NPs have federal independence, because they tried, PA's don't want it, so how many DMS or DMSc are there now?, and why not try at this level? It’s been proposed in TN. It was shot down by physicians and not supported by PAs at large, even progressive ones. Obvious why physicians opposed it, then you have those PAs who have Stockholm syndrome or don’t want any PAs to have independence because they don’t want it and don’t want to compete with those who do, and progressive PAs want independence for all and do not want a tiered system. As usual no one can come to a middle ground based on common sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 28, 2022 Moderator Share Posted December 28, 2022 4 hours ago, TeddyRucpin said: Any idea of when any of the big name programs is going to add a doctorate? We need some reputable, heavy hitters to do this. I think some of the ones out there are big names. AT still, Butler, LMU and others are not podunk programs. As for public universities or Ivy programs, I think their physician programs carry too much weight as they are often tied to large health systems and no one who wants tenure is going to buck academic politics. Sippers and slurpers… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted December 28, 2022 Administrator Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 hours ago, TeddyRucpin said: Any idea of when any of the big name programs is going to add a doctorate? We need some reputable, heavy hitters to do this. I'm not sure that we do. What heavy hitters are you looking for? Duke? Yale? Did the NPs need any equivalent schools to lead the switch to the DNP? It's a legitimate question in that I really have no idea. 18 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said: I think some of the ones out there are big names. AT still, Butler, LMU and others are not podunk programs. As for public universities or Ivy programs, I think their physician programs carry too much weight as they are often tied to large health systems and no one who wants tenure is going to buck academic politics. Sippers and slurpers… ATSU is, first and foremost, the flagship DO medical school that later branched out into a lot of other healthcare professional programs. My now-retired DO SP went there and was pleased to hear that I had selected them for my DMSc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Also someone needs to remind Touro about Yale Physician Associate Program Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 8 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said: then you have those PAs who have Stockholm syndrome or don’t want any PAs to have independence because they don’t want it and don’t want to compete with those who do sorry... not accurate. I was one of those progressives who opposed it. The main reason is they weren't working on independence for PAs. They were trying to calve off part of the profession and make a whole new profession. You won't meet anyone more for independence than me. What they were trying to do wouldn't benefit the profession. Just a few people from one school who were quite arrogant and superior in their endeavor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeddyRucpin Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 9 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said: I think some of the ones out there are big names. AT still, Butler, LMU and others are not podunk programs. As for public universities or Ivy programs, I think their physician programs carry too much weight as they are often tied to large health systems and no one who wants tenure is going to buck academic politics. Sippers and slurpers… Yes, I’m talking about doctorates from places with attached MD programs, the older PA schools doing this (Baylor, Drexel, Emory, Yale, and so on). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hope2PA Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 hours ago, sas5814 said: sorry... not accurate. I was one of those progressives who opposed it. The main reason is they weren't working on independence for PAs. They were trying to calve off part of the profession and make a whole new profession. You won't meet anyone more for independence than me. What they were trying to do wouldn't benefit the profession. Just a few people from one school who were quite arrogant and superior in their endeavor. I read info about PA,s no supporting because of only beneficial to LMU grads, However I don't think it said LMU grads, it had specific educational and experience criteria spelled out. Actually it was supported by some MDs and DOs and was under review by state medical board to make a decision. Nursing heavily lobbied against with letters saying the NPs would be best option for independent now DMS educated PAs. since PAs have, in general not supported independence, why advocate against group wanting to gain it with specified educational and clinical path. If it had been accepted nothing would prevent other programs from following same criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas5814 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) I'd have to go back and review the whole thing to be 100% and I've been (thankfully) out of PA politics since the title change fiasco. My recollection is they did have specific educational experience that was only available in their program, and they wanted the beneficiaries of this movement to have an entirely different title essentially creating a new profession. I had discussion with AAPA leadership at the time and they shared my (our...I was president of PAFT) concerns. It was done unilaterally with no discussion with anyone else in leadership outside the state so there was no "this could lead to bigger things for all of us" type discussion. In fact, someone spearheading this movement told us all to shut up...that it was none of our business. That doesn't really sound like a cooperative effort moving towards bigger and better things for the whole profession. It sounded like a "I got mine so screw you" move. I'd add there wasn't much support. If it was that grand an idea our pitiful opinions couldn't have slowed it down much less killed it off. They took another run at it several months later and there was near zero support for it. Edited December 28, 2022 by sas5814 added comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted December 28, 2022 Moderator Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Hope2PA said: I read info about PA,s no supporting because of only beneficial to LMU grads, However I don't think it said LMU grads, it had specific educational and experience criteria spelled out. Actually it was supported by some MDs and DOs and was under review by state medical board to make a decision. Nursing heavily lobbied against with letters saying the NPs would be best option for independent now DMS educated PAs. since PAs have, in general not supported independence, why advocate against group wanting to gain it with specified educational and clinical path. If it had been accepted nothing would prevent other programs from following same criteria. It was supported by LMU physician faculty, it was ultimately killed by pressure from the TN medical association, and thus the LMU faculty changed direction. Nursing is an easy boogey man, but they had nothing to do with LMU dropping efforts to pass the legislation. 5 hours ago, TeddyRucpin said: Yes, I’m talking about doctorates from places with attached MD programs, the older PA schools doing this (Baylor, Drexel, Emory, Yale, and so on). Never gonna happen in the south. It’s laughable that anything progressive would ever happen in Texas Drexel isn’t the program it use to be, from an envelop pushing perspective. Yale could but doubt it. very few big program changes or start ups have happened in academia for the betterment of the people. If DMS takes off it will be because it was financially prudent and the money it makes the big wigs (politicians, board of regents, hospital administrators, insurance) is enough money to tell nay sayers to shut it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeguard Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 On 12/16/2022 at 2:00 PM, ventana said: Legally my title is defined by the state but emotionally I am already an associate and what the heck is a doctorate in assisting??? Personally, I think the schools should call it a DSc. (Doctor of Science) or as some schools call it, "Doctor of Medical Sciences" (DMSc) with an emphasis/major/concentration in Primary Care. However, I agree with some previous posters that this is a "money grab" for the schools. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 28, 2022 Moderator Share Posted December 28, 2022 7 hours ago, TeddyRucpin said: Yes, I’m talking about doctorates from places with attached MD programs, the older PA schools doing this (Baylor, Drexel, Emory, Yale, and so on). Drexel has a postgrad DHSc program open to folks from a variety of clinical backgrounds. https://drexel.edu/cnhp/academics/doctoral/DHSC-Doctor-Health-Science/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted December 28, 2022 Administrator Share Posted December 28, 2022 14 minutes ago, EMEDPA said: Drexel has a postgrad DHSc program open to folks from a variety of clinical backgrounds. https://drexel.edu/cnhp/academics/doctoral/DHSC-Doctor-Health-Science/ As I understand it, a DHSc is basically an EdD for medicine: a teaching/research degree that's essentially an ersatz and inferior PhD. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 29, 2022 Moderator Share Posted December 29, 2022 11 hours ago, rev ronin said: As I understand it, a DHSc is basically an EdD for medicine: a teaching/research degree that's essentially an ersatz and inferior PhD. stack it up against a typical DMSc. It's about twice as long with twice as many credits and on campus requirements. I agree that it is more research focused than a DMSc, but education is just one track available. Mine was mostly global health( 11 of 16 classes) plus the required core courses. Just sayin...That is like saying a DMSc is basically a DNP for non-nurses.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted December 29, 2022 Administrator Share Posted December 29, 2022 8 hours ago, EMEDPA said: Just sayin...That is like saying a DMSc is basically a DNP for non-nurses.... Don't dispute that at all. In fact, it's how I describe my DMSc program--it's roughly half research/writing and half management/public health. I wasn't meaning to inappropriately diss the DHSc--just note that it's a PhD lite that, in the grand scheme of things, will probably fall by the wayside like the EdD seems to be doing in some circles, in preference to the more established and well known PhD. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 I don’t think DHSc is going away; it’s just not being pursued by PAs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted December 30, 2022 Moderator Share Posted December 30, 2022 The DHSc is an accepted international degree and is not unique to the U.S. There are many European, Australian, New Zealand, and Asian DHSc programs. Doctor of Health Science - Wikipedia It is fair to call it PhD lite. Similar to PsyD vs PhD psych. A DHSc is an applied as opposed to theoretical research doctorate. I would say it falls between a DMSc and a PhD in terms of rigor. I agree that the DMSc will likely be the dominant PA doctorate in the future and likely be granted by entry level PA programs at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolakPA Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Not sure why all these PA Doctoral programs are all over the map, atleast DNP has consensus…… https://www.shrs.pitt.edu/news/trendsetter-innovative-dpas-program Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) You can always count on PAs to f it up Not impressed with the curriculum either Edited January 24, 2023 by iconic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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