Changes thanks to OTP?

[PACJD]

I work in a relatively large hospital system in a major city in the northeast, where there are several hundred PAs currently working. We are highly utilized across all specialities and generally treated well with competitive salaries, good benefits, significant respect, etc.

This morning we received notice by our CEO (who is a former PA) that the salary of all PAs will be going up, effective next pay period. Our hospital uses a pay grade scale, so PAs are now going to be in the same pay grade as the pharmacists and CRNAs. The reasoning for this, as stated in the email, was to compensate for the "progression of the PA profession, OTP influences, and continued expansion of the modern medical approach." 

Has anyone else had any changes in their hospitals or increases in salary due to OTP? The fact that our CEO is a PA might have had something to do with the push, but it is good to see that hospitals are starting to recognize the progression in our profession. Regardless, I'll enjoy my 17k increase either way...

[ProSpectre]

46 minutes ago, NJPL1213 said:

I work in a relatively large hospital system in a major city in the northeast, where there are several hundred PAs currently working. We are highly utilized across all specialities and generally treated well with competitive salaries, good benefits, significant respect, etc.

This morning we received notice by our CEO (who is a former PA) that the salary of all PAs will be going up, effective next pay period. Our hospital uses a pay grade scale, so PAs are now going to be in the same pay grade as the pharmacists and CRNAs. The reasoning for this, as stated in the email, was to compensate for the "progression of the PA profession, OTP influences, and continued expansion of the modern medical approach." 

Has anyone else had any changes in their hospitals or increases in salary due to OTP? The fact that our CEO is a PA might have had something to do with the push, but it is good to see that hospitals are starting to recognize the progression in our profession. Regardless, I'll enjoy my 17k increase either way...

That's excellent news, congratulations on your raise! I'm especially pleased that the raises were specifically related to progression of the PA profession and movement towards OTP, and ostensibly how this can benefit both the hospital and patients in the future. I think this is a great example of a hospital-system seeing the value of PAs, and furthermore seeing the value in the removal of red-tape and barriers to practice so that PAs can be utilized to the full extent of their training and experience.

I'm sure the CEO being a former PA had a lot to do with that recognition, but it is a great precedent nonetheless (and also shows the value of having PAs in leadership positions). This should also serve as a positive example to those who don't see how OTP is good for the profession, and will hopefully sway people who are on the fence about supporting OTP. 

[CAAdmission]

Awesome! Who's the PA that made it to CEO? He must have other degrees?

[PACJD]

28 minutes ago, CJAdmission said:

Awesome! Who's the PA that made it to CEO? He must have other degrees?

Yea I didn’t mention that he has a jd and mba as well and that he only practiced as a PA for 2 years. Still a PA nonetheless lol. 

[KpsPac]

This is incredible news!

Would you be willing to share the email?  We need to share this development with other PAs, administrators, and any other stakeholder. Not only for the fantastic news affecting you and your colleagues, but to show a PA in a highly visible leadership role. 

kps

[OneDayAPA_Maybe]

Tangent: we had a class during didactic year that covered the history of the PA profession, introduced us to malpractice insurance, and brought in various PA's working in different specialties and aspects of medicine. PA's came in and discussed the specialties they worked in and what they enjoyed about it, but they also brought in PA's that owned practices, worked as lobbyists and were in administration. One of them oversees one of the largest EM staffing groups for our area and asked us "who here is interested in going in hospital/healthcare administration?" Only one student raised their hand out of 50. It surprised me because many of us are focused on medicine, but few think about going into administration. One of the best things we can do as a profession is get more PA's in hospital/healthcare administration. Nurses are great placing themselves in administrative roles and fighting for more money and benefits for their nurses, but I feel PA's do not do this well. Something we need to do is begin to plant the idea in young PA's that going into administration is a good choice and is one that benefits our profession.

[corpsman89]

This needs to get to AAPA so they can capitalize on this. 

If the general working PA could see this, it would likely encourage more of them to become involved and aware of what OTP is and how it can (now some proof) increase salaries, by reducing regulatory burdens. 

[PACJD]

3 hours ago, corpsman89 said:

This needs to get to AAPA so they can capitalize on this. 

If the general working PA could see this, it would likely encourage more of them to become involved and aware of what OTP is and how it can (now some proof) increase salaries, by reducing regulatory burdens. 

Our hospital PA leadership is planning on writing something to our state organization and hopefully it will get to the AAPA. We are just waiting to see how our work expectations/regulations will be affected over the next few weeks. Will definitely keep everyone posted on how everything pans out. 

[PACJD]

11 hours ago, OneDayAPA_Maybe said:

Tangent: we had a class during didactic year that covered the history of the PA profession, introduced us to malpractice insurance, and brought in various PA's working in different specialties and aspects of medicine. PA's came in and discussed the specialties they worked in and what they enjoyed about it, but they also brought in PA's that owned practices, worked as lobbyists and were in administration. One of them oversees one of the largest EM staffing groups for our area and asked us "who here is interested in going in hospital/healthcare administration?" Only one student raised their hand out of 50. It surprised me because many of us are focused on medicine, but few think about going into administration. One of the best things we can do as a profession is get more PA's in hospital/healthcare administration. Nurses are great placing themselves in administrative roles and fighting for more money and benefits for their nurses, but I feel PA's do not do this well. Something we need to do is begin to plant the idea in young PA's that going into administration is a good choice and is one that benefits our profession.

Definitely agree. However, from my experience, I do feel that the new wave of younger PAs are becoming more involved in leadership and pushing for administrative roles. When I first started out none of the PAs I worked with had any desire to become involved with hospital politics, and many us (myself included), were content with our salaries/roles. The younger PAs in my hospital are now taking on larger administrative roles, which is why were are treated so well where I work. 

[jusgatr]

Below was a comment I posted in another discussion, but applies here as well. It was in regard to a clinical doctorate or the DMSc. My point was to focus on tenured/older PAs to be the push to getting those doctorates and get into administrative roles. MBA or MHA would likely be sufficient as well, but everyone seems to push towards a doctorate now to sit on an administrative board. Our MPAS degree does nothing for health care/administrative roles and does not prepare us to be offered these positions. Not that the DNP does either, but they can be the DON with that degree or a principal investigator on a clinical trial.

“Tenured was meant to be a PA of 10+ years of experience. The providers primed for leadership positions and roles in health care organizations and interested in seeking further need of a “doctorate” to gain a seat at the table in those positions. The argument made on here often is for a “clinical” doctorate that would prepare us for those positions. A MPAS now is literally a sunk cost and has no value for a tenured/bachelor/certificate PA. It gives no more rights or value for a PA from 10-20+years ago. Just cost 20-30k more. And by 2025 NPs will be 100% doctorates while we are putting out 100% masters. I like the concept that EMEDPA pointed out that bridges both and gives some credit to already lower your sunk cost. Some people don’t see it that way. This is just my opinion. 

I also get the the concept of being able to work while you achieve these options. A PA with 1-3 years worth of experience but sporting a doctorate is not going to advance the profession. The PA with 10-20 years worth of experience with ties to the medical boards, administrations at hospitals, and the medical doctor colleagues who know them would. As those fore mentioned experienced PAs would be the ones offered said advancing positions for the profession. Btw this comment was not meant to offend PAs with less experience, but more to point out the necessity for change sooner than waiting 5-10 more years for all the masters trained PAs to finally have doctorates. DNPs will already have accepted those executive positions far sooner.”

[PACJD]

16 minutes ago, jusgatr said:

Below was a comment I posted in another discussion, but applies here as well. It was in regard to a clinical doctorate or the DMSc. My point was to focus on tenured/older PAs to be the push to getting those doctorates and get into administrative roles. MBA or MHA would likely be sufficient as well, but everyone seems to push towards a doctorate now to sit on an administrative board. Our MPAS degree does nothing for health care/administrative roles and does not prepare us to be offered these positions. Not that the DNP does either, but they can be the DON with that degree or a principal investigator on a clinical trial.

“Tenured was meant to be a PA of 10+ years of experience. The providers primed for leadership positions and roles in health care organizations and interested in seeking further need of a “doctorate” to gain a seat at the table in those positions. The argument made on here often is for a “clinical” doctorate that would prepare us for those positions. A MPAS now is literally a sunk cost and has no value for a tenured/bachelor/certificate PA. It gives no more rights or value for a PA from 10-20+years ago. Just cost 20-30k more. And by 2025 NPs will be 100% doctorates while we are putting out 100% masters. I like the concept that EMEDPA pointed out that bridges both and gives some credit to already lower your sunk cost. Some people don’t see it that way. This is just my opinion. 

I also get the the concept of being able to work while you achieve these options. A PA with 1-3 years worth of experience but sporting a doctorate is not going to advance the profession. The PA with 10-20 years worth of experience with ties to the medical boards, administrations at hospitals, and the medical doctor colleagues who know them would. As those fore mentioned experienced PAs would be the ones offered said advancing positions for the profession. Btw this comment was not meant to offend PAs with less experience, but more to point out the necessity for change sooner than waiting 5-10 more years for all the masters trained PAs to finally have doctorates. DNPs will already have accepted those executive positions far sooner.”

Hmm... I beg to differ on a few points that you suggested.

Where I am from at least, a PA with 10-20 years experience with a Bachelor's in PA would not win a seat on the hospital administration over a PA with 5 years with a MSPA. Some places near me would not even consider hiring a seasoned PA with only a Bachelors and would rather have a PA with 3-5 years experience with a Masters. I know you mentioned that an MSPA is a "sunken cost" and gives no extra rights or value, but it actually does. This has happened multiple times actually where I work, and several PAs with bachelors were scrambling to get their Masters otherwise they would get laid off. The new grad MSPA made >30-40k more than the seasoned PAs. 

I know a lot of people would disagree, and I am not saying that I totally agree with this, but it is true. I personally would rather take real working experience over the education, but large hospital systems do care about the degree. In the eyes of these larger organizations, sporting the fact that all your PAs have their Masters makes it more appealing. 

I also feel like that is why most of the PAs taking leadership roles are the younger crowd with their Master's, and the older folks are less likely to be holding administrative roles, due to the degree discrepancy. 

 

[MediMike]

2 hours ago, NJPL1213 said:

Where I am from at least, a PA with 10-20 years experience with a Bachelor's in PA would not win a seat on the hospital administration over a PA with 5 years with a MSPA. Some places near me would not even consider hiring a seasoned PA with only a Bachelors and would rather have a PA with 3-5 years experience with a Masters. I know you mentioned that an MSPA is a "sunken cost" and gives no extra rights or value, but it actually does. This has happened multiple times actually where I work, and several PAs with bachelors were scrambling to get their Masters otherwise they would get laid off. The new grad MSPA made >30-40k more than the seasoned PAs. 

That's interesting and kind of depressing.  The fact that an organization would refuse to grandfather in individuals who had the prior terminal degree and had been practicing for years is pretty lame.  I personally find the MPAS/MSPA to be a worthless degree as (at least in the program I graduated from) there was little additional coursework other than a capstone project which most just half assed.  Oh yeah, and there was the additional $25k.

So I remain one of the proud last graduates of a quickly dying BCHS program, will I eventually go forward for additional education? Yes, but only a degree which is actually pertinent to the field...unless the group decides to can me for my lack of post-name initials in which case  Touro v. Pace here I come!

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

5 hours ago, NJPL1213 said:

Hmm... I beg to differ on a few points that you suggested.

Where I am from at least, a PA with 10-20 years experience with a Bachelor's in PA would not win a seat on the hospital administration over a PA with 5 years with a MSPA. Some places near me would not even consider hiring a seasoned PA with only a Bachelors and would rather have a PA with 3-5 years experience with a Masters. I know you mentioned that an MSPA is a "sunken cost" and gives no extra rights or value, but it actually does. This has happened multiple times actually where I work, and several PAs with bachelors were scrambling to get their Masters otherwise they would get laid off. The new grad MSPA made >30-40k more than the seasoned PAs. 

I know a lot of people would disagree, and I am not saying that I totally agree with this, but it is true. I personally would rather take real working experience over the education, but large hospital systems do care about the degree. In the eyes of these larger organizations, sporting the fact that all your PAs have their Masters makes it more appealing. 

I also feel like that is why most of the PAs taking leadership roles are the younger crowd with their Master's, and the older folks are less likely to be holding administrative roles, due to the degree discrepancy. 

 

I’ve seen it in DFW.

[jusgatr]

You’re telling me a PA with 10+ years of experience with a bachelors was passed on in DFW(assuming other poster is from NJ) for a 1-2 year experienced MSPA? And paid more? Plus whoever the office/administrative manager is deserves an award for biggest risk taker with their own job. Production alone from the bachelor PA vs the less experience masters PA won’t even be close. I used to get paid based on collections and saw what a 1-2 post grad billed compared to 7-8 year PAs. The organization could pay the 25k for the bachelors PA to get their masters that year and still come out ahead. Those organizations that are doing that like degrees and not money or production (at least at first-everyone gets better with time). I agree with MediMike, that’s truly sad for our profession. 

As Medimike mentioned, many of the bachelor trained PAs have decided against the MPAS because it literally adds nothing to your actual ability to be a PA, but cost you 25k. Which is why I’m currently enrolled in a MBA in healthcare for that reason. Both cost 25k. Both online. MBA gets you a seat at the table.  Indeed, it’s an interesting finding that hospitals are lumping us like associate RNs and requiring upgrades in degrees to work in their hospitals. 

[PACJD]

19 minutes ago, jusgatr said:

You’re telling me a PA with 10+ years of experience with a bachelors was passed on in DFW(assuming other poster is from NJ) for a 1-2 year experienced MSPA? And paid more? Plus whoever the office/administrative manager is deserves an award for biggest risk taker with their own job. Production alone from the bachelor PA vs the less experience masters PA won’t even be close. I used to get paid based on collections and saw what a 1-2 post grad billed compared to 7-8 year PAs. The organization could pay the 25k for the bachelors PA to get their masters that year and still come out ahead. Those organizations that are doing that like degrees and not money or production (at least at first-everyone gets better with time). I agree with MediMike, that’s truly sad for our profession. 

As Medimike mentioned, many of the bachelor trained PAs have decided against the MPAS because it literally adds nothing to your actual ability to be a PA, but cost you 25k. Which is why I’m currently enrolled in a MBA in healthcare for that reason. Both cost 25k. Both online. MBA gets you a seat at the table.  Indeed, it’s an interesting finding that hospitals are lumping us like associate RNs and requiring upgrades in degrees to work in their hospitals. 

Mine is in NY and yes there were a couple times I could remember where a few 15+ years bachelor PAs were passed for more like a 4-5 year masters PA. And listen I definitely agree with you that there would be a gap in production but in the eyes of large hospital corporations they would be willing to take a risk and hire a newer PA who had 4 years of undergraduate education for their general bachelors PLUS 2-3 years of graduate level education holding a masters rather than an experienced PA with 4-5 years of education and 10 years experience.

How that makes sense is beyond me but these days the degrees do matter, not only in our profession but pretty much in all professions in general. Pretty similar to Physical Therapy where places want 3-4 years of education and someone with their doctorate. Also similar to accounting where companies want someone with a Masters in accounting and a CPA rather than just a bachelors in accounting. Whether the extra education is truly beneficial to actually perform the job is debatable. 

[ProSpectre]

15 minutes ago, jusgatr said:

You’re telling me a PA with 10+ years of experience with a bachelors was passed on in DFW(assuming other poster is from NJ) for a 1-2 year experienced MSPA? And paid more? Plus whoever the office/administrative manager is deserves an award for biggest risk taker with their own job. Production alone from the bachelor PA vs the less experience masters PA won’t even be close. I used to get paid based on collections and saw what a 1-2 post grad billed compared to 7-8 year PAs. The organization could pay the 25k for the bachelors PA to get their masters that year and still come out ahead. Those organizations that are doing that like degrees and not money or production (at least at first-everyone gets better with time). I agree with MediMike, that’s truly sad for our profession. 

He may have meant a master's-trained PA with 5 years of experience getting a seat in hospital administration vs a more experienced bachelor's-trained PA (I'll defer to GMOTM to clarify). In that case, the difference in competence or speed in seeing patients wouldn't likely be too great between the two, but the master's degree clearly gave a leg up for the administrative role. 

Also, not to split hairs, but I would think there is likely quite a difference in the comfort, efficiency, and speed with which a PA with 5 years of experience (which was what was referenced in the above post) can see patients compared to a new grad 1-2 years out. I don't think that means they should be paid more or hired over a more experienced bachelor's trained PA though. 

Either way, the majority of PAs have master's degrees now (especially those trained in the last 10 years or so), so hospitals aren't likely to change these practices, right or wrong. 

[jusgatr]

I guess it’s all semantics between production considering not all providers are built the same. But on average, at least in a specialist field, PA with more experience trumps PA with less experience from a collection standpoint. For at least the first 3-5 years, assuming not residency trained. And the more experienced PA even has more time off.

I will concede a bachelors PA vs a MPAS for an administrative position would not be the same. However, I think the administrative jobs (managers, CEO/CFO, director) are not having MPAS degrees fill those positions. Because our masters training teaches us nothing about business or managing, or at least the one offered from my old school doesn’t. Even a masters of nursing teaches more about health care management than a MPAS, just look at the curriculums. So if we continue to offer masters (assuming clinical doctorates are out), then why not MHA, MBAH, or possible MPH be the standard? All of which give you an option of doing something later in your career.

If you stay a provider, a private group isn’t going to care if you have a masters or not. Hospitals and VAs may though which has been pointed out. Might be something to think about when all these NPs are taking the hospital jobs with their doctorates. 

[corpsman89]

Well if some regions/places/employers would hire a new grad FNP over a 5 yr experienced PA in certain parts of the country only due to the fact that NPs have less perceived liability, then I could definitely see employers hiring a Masters PA w/ <1 yr experience over a Bachelors PA w/ >5 yrs experience based on degree only.  

It's all about how things are perceived. 

[jusgatr]

Agree with the above. Sad but true. Even more the reason for OTP to be the big push on state to state level. 

[sillycibin]

Where has OTP actually been implemented?  It's an idea being pushed by the AAPA but without state level implementation no hospital or practice actually benefits from it and our competitive disadvantage in many states is not changed.

[ventana]

To the OP

 

Where did this occur???

 

 

[Boatswain2PA]

On 5/27/2018 at 3:46 PM, MediMike said:

The fact that an organization would refuse to grandfather in individuals who had the prior terminal degree and had been practicing for years is pretty lame.

And is probably led by a bunch of useless idiots with graduate degrees in business, administration, or nursing, who are in charge of the organization.

[PACJD]

1 hour ago, ventana said:

To the OP

 

Where did this occur???

 

 

Hospital system in ny 

[Autom]

Do you know if any states have adopted or are in the process of adopting OTP?

[weezianna]

Here in my area of NC, the hospital systems all specify Master's degrees in their job postings.  They hire basically fairly new grads.  If you have 20 years of experience, and a Bachelor's, you won't even get a call.