Amina Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 http://networker.paeaonline.org/2014/03/19/prerequisite-absurdity/ Hopefully the link works. I thought this was a really interesting article about the inconsistency between PA program requirements. I think uniformity would serve several purposes including eliminating common misconceptions about PA education and damaging public statements. Well, perhaps not completely eliminating it but, it's a start. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 THANK YOU for posting this. Having just gone through CASPA and gaining an admission I was shocked and frustrated by the extremely disparate pre-reqs for some of the schools. They all seem to have in common A&P 1 and 2 (with lab) and microbiology (with lab), but from there things get crazy. Some schools require biochemistry, genetics, or nutrition. Some require Orgo 1 and 2, while others don't even require a basic biology course. I understand the desire to have students well prepared but there becomes a point where that is no longer being accomplished. In addition, the PA profession was not created with this in mind. Let's not forget who the original target audience for PA programs were- people already working in health care who were looking to "upgrade". Requiring them to go back to school to take a host of classes that are not even required for med school is absurd. The one univ system with three PA schools where the pre-reqs aren't standardized should be the shining example of "don't do this". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I think that standardizing the pre-reqs is a good idea. It puts us more in-line with medical school admissions, thus enhancing our credibility (for lack of a better term) to the lay person. I say ditch biochem. Schools that don't specify on biochem fail to realize the vast difference between the 'intro to biochem' at a CC and the biochem at uni. that requires completion of orgo 1 & 2 and quant beforehand (an issue I ran into). I also say replace orgo with general physics. Keep gen bios and chems and of course A&P. Make micro and cell mandatory. Dev bio is a great course too, but not commonly seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHU-CH Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Some of the issue is that there are very few reliable predictors of success in PA school. When each program starts up, it picks the classes that seem to make the most sense. Little changes are made through the years as the program tries to dial in the pre-reqs that work the best. If you asked each program why they have the pre-req classes they do, you would probably hear a pretty wide variety of reasons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 21, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2014 I think that standardizing the pre-reqs is a good idea. It puts us more in-line with medical school admissions, thus enhancing our credibility (for lack of a better term) to the lay person. I say ditch biochem. Schools that don't specify on biochem fail to realize the vast difference between the 'intro to biochem' at a CC and the biochem at uni. that requires completion of orgo 1 & 2 and quant beforehand (an issue I ran into). I also say replace orgo with general physics. Keep gen bios and chems and of course A&P. Make micro and cell mandatory. Dev bio is a great course too, but not commonly seen. agree with this. if you are going to require biochem, specify intro level. also agree that physics is much more worthwhile than ochem. most folks forget ochem the day after the final. an intro stats course would also be a good idea to help folks understand medical research better. there is no reason to require pre-calc or calc. You don't need those for med school either at most places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyM2 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Here, here! When my daughter applied to LSU Shreveport she was told she must have a course in medical terminology. No Texas school requires that. I suspect that most of the nurses, emts, etc applying to PA school don't need that course so it is just "make work." She has decided to attend a Texas school that is the only one to require nutrition (not a bad course really) and a third semester of psychology. This is costing her almost $1,000 at the local community college and cutting into time she would like to be volunteering or working to save money for school. Almost as bad are all the "suggested" , but "not required" , courses that vary from school to school. Here's a logic question: If a course is suggested but not required, does that mean you can forget about it? Or does it mean we give preference to those who didn't ignore our"suggestion?" And it isn't just pre-reqs. I wish all PA schools would specify that they want to see HCE hours, what qualifies as HCE and what the minimum is. If the minimum is 2,000 (or whatever), that should be the number. Not 2,000 is plenty but we will like you even better if it's a million. PAs should train with med students wherever possible and be taught by MDs, PAs or, in some cases, a PhD or pharmocologist. PAs should not (or rarely) be taught by nurses. Finally, PA schools should never be part of a nursing school or allied health sciences school. The reason people confuse physician assistant and medical assistant is because too many people think PA school is a trade school. Did someone say I was rambling on about my pet peeves?....... Sent from my Kindle Fire HDX using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted March 21, 2014 Administrator Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'd rather standardize HCE entrance requirements first... at 2,000 hours minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timon Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I disagree with biochem not being included. We take Biochem as part of our PA curriculum at TUN just like the DO students do. The professors do not cut us any slack and laugh at how they are going to present 3 hours worth of lecture in 1 hour. I could not imagine going through biochem without any previous biochem course. Yes the level of detail is ridiculous but its helped most of us in the program learn the information better when it comes to pathology and drug design / drug delivery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grcia Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I have yet to take orgo or biochem but from the medical students and PA students I've talked to they all agree biochem >> Orgo. You will rarely, if ever, use orgo in medicine, biochem would be more useful because it is often part of the curriculum and prior exposure would be beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 21, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2014 there is no biochem or orgo on pance or panre.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_pavnp Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I find the odd Orgo2 requirement to be particularly boggling, but maybe that's my age showing. When I earned my BS, Orgo1 was expected, but nobody except Chem majors took Orgo2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I find the odd Orgo2 requirement to be particularly boggling, but maybe that's my age showing. When I earned my BS, Orgo1 was expected, but nobody except Chem majors took Orgo2. It is boggling. For the few PA schools that list both semesters of organic, I surmise that they just lifted if from the med school pre-reqs. Will be interesting to see when med schools step away from it. It's a unreliable weeder class. Sent from the Satellite of Love using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Any PA school which requires two semesters of orgo is a PA school to stay away from. PA school is meant to train excellent clinicians, not research scientists. It is mind boggling and absurd in the extreme for any PA school to require orgo 2. If it more mind boggling for a PA school to likewise require gen chem 2. Mind you, I work as a tutor for organic chemistry and know the topic rather well. It's confusing why it is even required for medical school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIPA-C Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I think that some of these requirements are because some Pre-PA students are Biology majors. For e.g at my school, Biology majors need Orgo 1 & 2 before Biochem, so it isn't a big deal for some to fulfill those orgo chem requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I think that some of these requirements are because some Pre-PA students are Biology majors. For e.g at my school Biology majors need Orgo 1 & 2 before Biochem, so it isn't a big deal for some to fulfill those orgo chem requirements. Except that this isn't being true to the original mission and design of the PA profession- to be a second career for those already working in health care. If the pre-reqs cannot be completed at the average community college then the requirements are absurd. If the average adult working in health care (RT, RN, paramedic, EMT, etc) cannot complete the pre-reqs locally and cheaply then the PA school has violated the original mission and design of the PA profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoRyou Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Except that this isn't being true to the original mission and design of the PA profession- to be a second career for those already working in health care. If the pre-reqs cannot be completed at the average community college then the requirements are absurd. If the average adult working in health care (RT, RN, paramedic, EMT, etc) cannot complete the pre-reqs locally and cheaply then the PA school has violated the original mission and design of the PA profession. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyM2 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I'd rather standardize HCE entrance requirements first... at 2,000 hours minimum.Agree. Sent from my Kindle Fire HDX using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGoLong Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 There are pros and cons to having different course and HCE requirements at different schools. Applicants are different and have different strengths and needs. Why try to fit them into the same round hole? I had about 20 years of HCE when I applied, but I respect my former classmates who had a lot less. They brought their own personal mix of drive, intelligence, and interpersonal skills. From what I know, they became great providers. I'm glad there were programs that gave people like that a chance. I don't recall that figuring out the union of all requirements for my schools of interest as having been that big a deal. (See: diagram, Venn.) I took some classes that, in the end, weren't required by my program. Then again, nothing you learn is ever really wasted. And optimizing your studies so that you can skate though with a dent-free GPA isn't all that good a template for the rest of your life. Maybe what's happening now is that people are applying to an ungodly number of programs (which is easy to do with CASPA and a big bank account). Then I'm sure that course requirements mapping gets a lot more complicated. I think it's better to research programs of interest and make personal contacts at the one you are interested in than just applying randomly around the country and hoping for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinntsp Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Any PA school which requires two semesters of orgo is a PA school to stay away from. PA school is meant to train excellent clinicians, not research scientists. It is mind boggling and absurd in the extreme for any PA school to require orgo 2. If it more mind boggling for a PA school to likewise require gen chem 2. Mind you, I work as a tutor for organic chemistry and know the topic rather well. It's confusing why it is even required for medical school. That is quite a generalization. I don't think any organic has been useful in PA school but there is no logic in saying that schools requiring it should be avoided. Are students attending such programs suddenly less qualified to be PAs because they've had more science eduation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 That is quite a generalization. I don't think any organic has been useful in PA school but there is no logic in saying that schools requiring it should be avoided. Are students attending such programs suddenly less qualified to be PAs because they've had more science eduation? It is a generalization and it's a correct one. Under no circumstances would they be less qualified (I'm not even sure how or why think that), but their time in their pre-PA studies could be better spent on more A&P courses, more pathology, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMPA Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 It is a generalization and it's a correct one. Under no circumstances would they be less qualified (I'm not even sure how or why think that), but their time in their pre-PA studies could be better spent on more A&P courses, more pathology, etc. if the student does not want to bother with organic chemistry then they should just go to nursing school. PA schooling is medical schooling and should have all the basic sciences necessary to build a proper learning foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 if the student does not want to bother with organic chemistry then they should just go to nursing school. PA schooling is medical schooling and should have all the basic sciences necessary to build a proper learning foundation. Agreed, which Orgo Chem 2 is not part of that foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACdan Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 if the student does not want to bother with organic chemistry then they should just go to nursing school. PA schooling is medical schooling and should have all the basic sciences necessary to build a proper learning foundation. Two semesters of organic chemistry is a rather useless foundation for most future providers. Instead it's a difficult class rooted in tradition, and hotly debated as to it's efficacy, that is inplace to help whittle down the numbers of applicants. Many students put in the hours of memorization necessary to be proficient in Orgo for the sole purpose of applying to medical programs, never to use the material again. Science is the opposite of shear memorization and regurgitation, it's critical thinking. Unfortunately the system still largely rewards GPA-oriented gunners over critical thinkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted March 23, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2014 if the student does not want to bother with organic chemistry then they should just go to nursing school. PA schooling is medical schooling and should have all the basic sciences necessary to build a proper learning foundation. orgo did not become a pa school requirement until recently. when I applied to pa school > 20 yrs ago none of the 52 programs out there required it. it is not on pance or panre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicinePower Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 orgo did not become a pa school requirement until recently. when I applied to pa school > 20 yrs ago none of the 52 programs out there required it. it is not on pance or panre. This is an excellent point. There is a concept known as "instruction creep" or "degree creep", to which the PA school pre-reqs are definitely suffering from. It's time to standardize them across the board and end the horrific creep that is preventing so many would-be excellent PAs from achieving their goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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