The Prerequisite Absurdity

[whoRyou]

Yes! This here is the true solution to the prereq problem!

If it was only that easy ... ;-)

[Will352ns]

EMED, I think you fail to mention that even though people may have 10+ years of experience in health care, doesn't mean they're good at what they do. You always talk in the forums about people with all of this HCE and that's great and all, but it means nothing if the person didn't learn anything from it. You should be focusing on quality instead of quantity. ..........lots of words.......................

 

Be careful with general statments.  It works both ways.  I always kind of resented the notion that people with a lot of HCE are better technically but have lower GPAs and the "young-guns" are the "smart" ones who will crush the material during didactic year.  Most of the folks in my class that had years of experience also had very good GPAs.  There are far too many that think that the high HCE students get a pass on GPA....I assure you...they don't. 

 

I am just about complete with didactic year and I can tell you  that it has been a pretty mixed bag as far as performance.  That said, there is one thing that is VERY evident...the folks who had at least a couple of years of quality HCE are able to APPLY the material to real life situations much better than the folks who came in with little experience regardless of GPA.  But that is okay....the folks with a lot of HCE generally help them out.

 

I am in the high HCE club (20 years worth).

[matchb0x]

For what it is worth, the PA profession attracts a very different personality than many other medical professions. Someone who is an egomaniac is not going to apply to PA school. 

 

We may be passionate and we may be mildly snarky at times, but the most uniformly good-hearted people I have met in medicine have been PAs. We look out for each other.

I have noticed this.  I originally had been considering medical school and spent plenty (read: too much) time on SDN.  I stopped visiting that place as it full of hate, ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. I am a nurse, it is a job and while I love helping people, I want to do it in a different way.  I got sick and tired of the "stupid nurse this" " dumb nurse that" crap from way too many people who have NEVER worked in healthcare.  The doctor vs nurse crap is tired and doesnt serve the patient well.  Thus, I am glad to see even with heated conversation that is full of implication for the future of the profession ( NP competition and PA being independent licensed) there remains a professional and adult air.

[Dunedain]

I found physics much more relevant in HC than ochem (I am not a PharmD). I am surprised more PA schools don't require it but they pick rando classes like Biochem or upper level Bio that full time HC people like me just can't run out and go take.....Ridiculous

 

Pathophysiology would seem to be a nice addition though but I don't see many patho courses at 4-years or CCs outside of nursing.

[Dunedain]

I have noticed this.  I originally had been considering medical school and spent plenty (read: too much) time on SDN.  I stopped visiting that place as it full of hate, ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. I am a nurse, it is a job and while I love helping people, I want to do it in a different way.  I got sick and tired of the "stupid nurse this" " dumb nurse that" crap from way too many people who have NEVER worked in healthcare.  The doctor vs nurse crap is tired and doesnt serve the patient well.  Thus, I am glad to see even with heated conversation that is full of implication for the future of the profession ( NP competition and PA being independent licensed) there remains a professional and adult air.

 19 y/o pre-meds talking down about nurses on SDN makes me want to vomit. I know exactly what you mean, that site is a cancer in many ways.

[jsfelder0417]

I have noticed this.  I originally had been considering medical school and spent plenty (read: too much) time on SDN.  I stopped visiting that place as it full of hate, ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. I am a nurse, it is a job and while I love helping people, I want to do it in a different way.  I got sick and tired of the "stupid nurse this" " dumb nurse that" crap from way too many people who have NEVER worked in healthcare.  The doctor vs nurse crap is tired and doesnt serve the patient well.  Thus, I am glad to see even with heated conversation that is full of implication for the future of the profession ( NP competition and PA being independent licensed) there remains a professional and adult air.

^True. I love good nurses, or any good healthcare professional for that matter. In fact, earlier this week a nurse showed me a more efficient way of placing a Rhino Rocket. The next day, a Paramedic showed me how to intubate with the new King Vision Laryngoscope. Doesn't matter their profession, if they are a subject matter expert, I listen. I have learned a ton doing so.

[cinntsp]

I found physics much more relevant in HC than ochem (I am not a PharmD). I am surprised more PA schools don't require it but they pick rando classes like Biochem or upper level Bio that full time HC people like me just can't run out and go take.....Ridiculous

 

Pathophysiology would seem to be a nice addition though but I don't see many patho courses at 4-years or CCs outside of nursing.

 

I worked full time and took biochem along with other classes simultaneously, albeit online.  Where there's a will, there's a way.

[matchb0x]

^True. I love good nurses, or any good healthcare professional for that matter. In fact, earlier this week a nurse showed me a more efficient way of placing a Rhino Rocket. The next day, a Paramedic showed me how to intubate with the new King Vision Laryngoscope. Doesn't matter their profession, if they are a subject matter expert, I listen. I have learned a ton doing so.

I give you props.  This is the attitude all healthcare providers should have and you will be better and provide better care for it.  We all do different jobs to help the patient.  And we all bring differing skills and experiences to the table.  I just wish this approach was more prevalent.

[PACdan]

I have noticed this.  I originally had been considering medical school and spent plenty (read: too much) time on SDN.  I stopped visiting that place as it full of hate, ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. I am a nurse, it is a job and while I love helping people, I want to do it in a different way.  I got sick and tired of the "stupid nurse this" " dumb nurse that" crap from way too many people who have NEVER worked in healthcare.  The doctor vs nurse crap is tired and doesnt serve the patient well.  Thus, I am glad to see even with heated conversation that is full of implication for the future of the profession ( NP competition and PA being independent licensed) there remains a professional and adult air.

 

I never posted on SDN, but have spent my fair share of time browsing, and the egos do tend to run high. :)

 

I think there is an inherent humility in choosing the PA profession. One would be disingenuous, or at the very least remiss, if they say they never entertained the idea of medical school before deciding to go PA. We are the closest you can get before MD/DO (by design) and that very fact lends itself to the inner debate many struggle with. I have no doubt that most PA students could handle medical school if given the opportunity.

 

Regardless of one’s viewpoint on the pre-req/HCE debate, we are a motivated, well educated, high-achieving bunch. We do a lot of what physicians do without the “doctor” title. In my very humble opinion, that takes a more self secure and level headed person to do than some of those spouting off on SDN.

[SHU-CH]

Well said, Dan.

[KiB]

YES! I applied to PA schools only in my home state, and they all have such varying requirements that 3 of the 7 rejected me outright because I didn't meet their pre-requisite course requirements. One school in particular has such strange things that you pretty much have to do all of your pre-reqs there in order to get into the program. Med schools, law schools, and every other graduate program I've heard of are not like this - the inconsistency is a huge roadblock to PA applicants.

[siskiyoufire]

I thought I might chime in here after lurking awhile.

 

I'm 28, just started attending MEDEX Spokane class 18!    HCE: 19,000 hours Senior Paramedic FTO/ Urgent care tech

 

At 17 I dropped out of high school and moved to Yellowstone to backpack the park, & work as a snowboard instructor until at 20 I made the wisest life choice a 20 year old high school drop out could make by making a baby with my girlfriend. (now wife) 

 

Deciding I now had to make something of myself the progression went something like this....  GED>>> community college>EMT class>Job as EMT>>>couple years and more babies>>>>Paramedic school>>>Paramedic career 

 

After a few years I became acutely aware that I was not one of the few able to make a life long career as a Medic and I began taking community college classes one or two a semester as I could afford and my schedule allowed. I took a part time gig as an urgent care tech, and that's where PA ambitions struck. I set myself towards this goal, however with the current rate that I was able to complete pre-reqs it would be years before I could get my 4 year degree and apply to PA programs....I was discouraged, until I found out about MEDEX

 

It was literally the only program I was able to apply to. There were a couple more I was "close" to being able to apply to (2-3 years of school at the rate i was able to take classes)

The good thing is Medex is one of the rare programs that hold true to the roots of the profession and welcomes applicants such as myself.

 

I have literally saved burning babies bro...

Crawled under semi trucks to intubate people

Hi 5'd someone I cardioverted from V-tach. 

Been wrist deep in a thigh with my finger in an artery with a 20 min transport

Put 14G IV's into people's EJ's, huddled under a tarp in a wrecked vehicle while the FD chops the roof off

I could go on but you get the point...

 

99% of PA schools would shun me. Not even read my application, but I assure you I can hang with any 4.0 amino acid nerd with no experience.

Do you think I'm unworthy of the profession?

 

The point

[Amina]

I thought I might chime in here after lurking awhile.

 

I'm 28, just started attending MEDEX Spokane class 18!    HCE: 19,000 hours Senior Paramedic FTO/ Urgent care tech

 

At 17 I dropped out of high school and moved to Yellowstone to backpack the park, & work as a snowboard instructor until at 20 I made the wisest life choice a 20 year old high school drop out could make by making a baby with my girlfriend. (now wife) 

 

Deciding I now had to make something of myself the progression went something like this....  GED>>> community college>EMT class>Job as EMT>>>couple years and more babies>>>>Paramedic school>>>Paramedic career 

 

After a few years I became acutely aware that I was not one of the few able to make a life long career as a Medic and I began taking community college classes one or two a semester as I could afford and my schedule allowed. I took a part time gig as an urgent care tech, and that's where PA ambitions struck. I set myself towards this goal, however with the current rate that I was able to complete pre-reqs it would be years before I could get my 4 year degree and apply to PA programs....I was discouraged, until I found out about MEDEX

 

It was literally the only program I was able to apply to. There were a couple more I was "close" to being able to apply to (2-3 years of school at the rate i was able to take classes)

The good thing is Medex is one of the rare programs that hold true to the roots of the profession and welcomes applicants such as myself.

 

I have literally saved burning babies bro...

Crawled under semi trucks to intubate people

Hi 5'd someone I cardioverted from V-tach. 

Been wrist deep in a thigh with my finger in an artery with a 20 min transport

Put 14G IV's into people's EJ's, huddled under a tarp in a wrecked vehicle while the FD chops the roof off

I could go on but you get the point...

 

99% of PA schools would shun me. Not even read my application, but I assure you I can hang with any 4.0 amino acid nerd with no experience.

Do you think I'm unworthy of the profession?

 

The point

I don't believe anyone would think you are unworthy of the profession. :)

[EMEDPA]

All us Doogie Howser, P.A.s' running around, no wonder the old guard is a bit miffed. :)

 

Second thought: You must get the Doogie Howser reference (don't wiki it) to be able to apply to PA school.

 

Third thought: God I'm old.

re: 2nd thought- I got that a lot in medic and PA school. I'm frequently assumed to be 10+ years younger than I actually am.

[PACdan]

re: 2nd thought- I got that a lot in medic and PA school. I'm frequently assumed to be 10+ years younger than I actually am.

 

Better younger than older. That's surprising too, since most 30/40-something EM types I know are prematurely grey and look quite weathered. :)

[GatorGirl]

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. If you are asking whether I would be concerned about a student with a lot of outside obligations, the answer is yes. In most cases these will not go away during PA school. I would never exclude a candidate due to this, but during an interview they will need to impress the committee that they have thought long and hard about what they are getting into, their finances are in order, they have a good support system, etc. People can make any life circumstances work in PA school - we have had students succeed in the face of births, deaths, marriage, sick family members, and everything else you can imagine. If you intend to bring things like this to PA school with you that is fine - just make sure you can impress to the adcom that you are really on the ball. Success in PA school is more guts than brains.

 

I'll give you a "devil's advocate" view from an adcom committee - you have one seat left:

• Applicant 1: Knew she wanted to be a PA her entire life and has directed all her energy and effort into becoming one. She took a monster course load in college and excelled with a 4.0 pre-req GPA.
• Applicant 2: Worked in X career for 10 years and then decided to become a PA. Applicant has taken a single pre-req course each semester and gotten an "A" in all of them, also resulting in a 4.0 pre-req GPA.

Do you pick applicant 2 because you want a diverse class? Does doing so in effect "penalize" applicant 1 for being driven and goal directed right from the start?

 

 

Here is another one that is frequently discussed on the forum, the so called "last 60 credits" question. Again, you have one seat left:

• Applicant 1: Knew she wanted to be a PA her entire life and has directed all her energy and effort into becoming one. Took a monster course load in college and excelled.
• Applicant 2: Did not know what he wanted to do when he went to college. Had a bad freshman year due to "difficulties adjusting." Sophomore year he decided to become a PA and he performed well subsequently.

If you accept applicant 2 over applicant 1, what message does that send? I never automatically exclude someone because they took a few lumps. (Heck I took my share - you should see my organic grades. My transcript looked like I would have had a hard time synthesizing water vapor from water and fire.) I guess what I am trying to get it is that you are not competing against a list of prerequisites in the application process - you are competing against other people with very diverse backgrounds and generally excellent qualifications.

 

 

I will tell you a secret: I love doing admissions interviews, but I hate making the decisions. Meeting the people who are the future of our profession is tremendously rewarding; making the decisions is hell. Adcoms agonize over most decisions. They know that their decisions have serious consequences for applicants, programs and the profession. It is not something that is taken lightly. 

 

I was pretty much applicant 2 in the above scenarios except that I always knew I wanted to work in medicine, with 11 yrs HCE at a large and very reputable academic institution. I was microbiology major, had some publications, all my proper pre-reqs, and good GRE's and GPA. My courses were beginning to get old (almost 10 yrs). During my exit interview from school I was told that they considered the fact that I was older and would have a short career. Ironic that immediately after graduation 3-4 of my 26 female classmates are NOT practicing in order to start families. I'm working full time since my children are grown. I've noticed a number of direct entry PA already out of clinical practice: two of my professors (4 and 10 years of clinical experience and they are no longer clinicians, one at my FM rotation is done to go into research, my own GI PA applied for an academic job but didn't get it-had 6 yrs of experience).

 

I made it through school (with an impressive GPA) despite the fact that my mother was dying of cancer (died between didactic and clinical years), my oldest son was at war in Afghanistan, my youngest son has significant mental illness, and I myself was hospitalized and regularly deal with chronic illness. Sometimes it takes a strong mature person to be able to handle all the sh** that life throws our way. I had a younger classmate that had to take off nearly two weeks to deal with her divorce.

 

I don't advocate discrimination based on age, race, religion or gender.

[whoRyou]

Better younger than older. That's surprising too, since most 30/40-something EM types I know are prematurely grey and look quite weathered. :)

It is all that grey and white matter oozing out of their brains

[Dunedain]

I just think there needs to be a balance between pre reqs, HCE, and GPA. Either the schools should coordinate and develop a standard set of requirements across the board or relegate certain classes to "recommended". Since it seems many people on here think HCE experience isn't as important of a factor with a pre-PA student, how relevant is upper level Bio or biochem? Upper level bio pretty much forces a student to go to a 4 year to take those classes and that really puts hardship on people already working full time or not near a university. In addition most CCs do not have biochem which makes online (UNE) the only option which I have heard good/bad things about the quality of the course and or resources available. It just seems if people call for a flex on HCE (regarding its importance) there should be some flex on pre reqs too.

 

One might question someone's availability during PA school if they can't fulfill a few out of the way pre reqs but I do not think that is the case. It is one thing to sacrifice time and extra effort to succeed in PA school and a totally separate entity to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of times on outlier pre reqs that may or may not correlate with PA school success. I mean if MD/DO schools don't require a lot of these classes and can get quality applicants from MCAT scores and the basic science pre reqs what do PA schools gain from the applicant pool when theses extra classes are tacked on?

[Joelseff]

I thought I might chime in here after lurking awhile.

 

I'm 28, just started attending MEDEX Spokane class 18! HCE: 19,000 hours Senior Paramedic FTO/ Urgent care tech

 

At 17 I dropped out of high school and moved to Yellowstone to backpack the park, & work as a snowboard instructor until at 20 I made the wisest life choice a 20 year old high school drop out could make by making a baby with my girlfriend. (now wife)

 

Deciding I now had to make something of myself the progression went something like this.... GED>>> community college>EMT class>Job as EMT>>>couple years and more babies>>>>Paramedic school>>>Paramedic career

 

After a few years I became acutely aware that I was not one of the few able to make a life long career as a Medic and I began taking community college classes one or two a semester as I could afford and my schedule allowed. I took a part time gig as an urgent care tech, and that's where PA ambitions struck. I set myself towards this goal, however with the current rate that I was able to complete pre-reqs it would be years before I could get my 4 year degree and apply to PA programs....I was discouraged, until I found out about MEDEX

 

It was literally the only program I was able to apply to. There were a couple more I was "close" to being able to apply to (2-3 years of school at the rate i was able to take classes)

The good thing is Medex is one of the rare programs that hold true to the roots of the profession and welcomes applicants such as myself.

 

I have literally saved burning babies bro...

Crawled under semi trucks to intubate people

Hi 5'd someone I cardioverted from V-tach.

Been wrist deep in a thigh with my finger in an artery with a 20 min transport

Put 14G IV's into people's EJ's, huddled under a tarp in a wrecked vehicle while the FD chops the roof off

I could go on but you get the point...

 

99% of PA schools would shun me. Not even read my application, but I assure you I can hang with any 4.0 amino acid nerd with no experience.

Do you think I'm unworthy of the profession?

 

The point

I'm pretty sure that there are a couple schools here in Cali that would've taken you. But MEDEX is a great spot! Congrats.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[EMEDPA]

I'm pretty sure that there are a couple schools here in Cali that would've taken you. But MEDEX is a great spot! Congrats. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

yup, this guy is the poster child for stanford, sjvcc, or rcc as well.

Looked at his list (starting IVs in cars being demolished around him, etc) and I can check off most of those as a medic as well.

[dreatx]

"99% of PA schools would shun me. Not even read my application, but I assure you I can hang with any 4.0 amino acid nerd with no experience.
Do you think I'm unworthy of the profession?"

 

Nice.

[KPPA15]

I think one of the most important parts of gaining HCE is to gain an understanding if the medical field is actually for you. I'm sure anyone in the medical field, RNs, RTs, PCAs, CNAs, etc etc will agree that the medical field is a lot different than what you imagined- good and bad. I know a lot of pre med students I'm in undergrad with right now who are applying to medical school, and have not once cared for a patient. How do they know that they're going to be able to handle the hardships of the medical field emotionally or physically? It can be draining sometimes, you truly have to have a passion for it. The turn over rate at my hospital is crazy, I mean I have seen nurses walk out in the middle of their shift (once I remember because a colostomy bag exploded..enough was enough I guess), that type of person clearly didn't have the passion you need. I don't think the HCE is about learning every medical term, medication, or procedures before you get to school, I think it's helping you decide if PA is really what you want to do. I didn't really understand half of the duties that some healthcare jobs, such as RT and RNs ACTUALLY had to do until I worked with them. This helped me decide what healthcare careers I definitely would and definitely WOULD NOT do (RT, ugh); which lead me to be even more sure about my decision to pursue a career as a PA. Shadowing helps also, but it's just not the same as actually having the responsibility of the patient in your hands. I will never understand how people pursue healthcare careers (especially medical school!) without having any experience...I just don't get how they know they actually like it or not, without ever doing it. It just makes zero sense to me.

[whoRyou]

I think one of the most important parts of gaining HCE is to gain an understanding if the medical field is actually for you. I'm sure anyone in the medical field, RNs, RTs, PCAs, CNAs, etc etc will agree that the medical field is a lot different than what you imagined- good and bad. I know a lot of pre med students I'm in undergrad with right now who are applying to medical school, and have not once cared for a patient. How do they know that they're going to be able to handle the hardships of the medical field emotionally or physically? It can be draining sometimes, you truly have to have a passion for it. The turn over rate at my hospital is crazy, I mean I have seen nurses walk out in the middle of their shift (once I remember because a colostomy bag exploded..enough was enough I guess), that type of person clearly didn't have the passion you need. I don't think the HCE is about learning every medical term, medication, or procedures before you get to school, I think it's helping you decide if PA is really what you want to do. I didn't really understand half of the duties that some healthcare jobs, such as RT and RNs ACTUALLY had to do until I worked with them. This helped me decide what healthcare careers I definitely would and definitely WOULD NOT do (RT, ugh); which lead me to be even more sure about my decision to pursue a career as a PA. Shadowing helps also, but it's just not the same as actually having the responsibility of the patient in your hands. I will never understand how people pursue healthcare careers (especially medical school!) without having any experience...I just don't get how they know they actually like it or not, without ever doing it. It just makes zero sense to me.

Amen! I bet "E" is smiling now. ^ This is E's soapbox I personally do not get it either, it is beyond me. It seems so obvious does it not?

[Joelseff]

Lets not discount that HCE is a big part of the foundation you build your medical career on. Good quality HCE (Hospital Corps/medic, Paramedic, Nurse, RT etc) goes beyond just simply feeling comfortable in medicine, I consider it a huge part of our education and training as practitioners. I know thete are some who do not/did not get much HCE before PA school and have/will turn out to be great clinicians but I for one would not trade my years as a corpsman, a surgical tech, and later as a lead Back Office MA in Int Med for more classroom time or shadowing somebody. I think of all the PA pre reqs it is the most difficult to get (good quality decision making HCE) but it is the most rewarding, imo, that I dont get why applicants dont put as much effort into it vs acing every prereq or getting into that O chem class....smh

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[siskiyoufire]

Thanks for the love guys. I didn't mean to rant. This thread presented ideas and opinions I've struggled with.

Anyways... so glad I'm gonna be part of the club! WOOOO!