The Prerequisite Absurdity

[matchb0x]

if the student does not want to bother with organic chemistry then they should just go to nursing school. PA schooling is medical schooling and should have all the basic sciences necessary to build a proper learning foundation.

  I took organic AND inorganic chemistry, it was req for my BSN, shocking, I know.  

[cinntsp]

It is a generalization and it's a correct one. Under no circumstances would they be less qualified (I'm not even sure how or why think that), but their time in their pre-PA studies could be better spent on more A&P courses, more pathology, etc.

 

But how does that translate into needing to stay away from a school?  

[MedicinePower]

But how does that translate into needing to stay away from a school?  

 

If they require such absurdity in their prerequisites for entry into the school then what will they require a PA student to learn which will not be on the PANCE?

[cinntsp]

If they require such absurdity in their prerequisites for entry into the school then what will they require a PA student to learn which will not be on the PANCE?

 

We are required to learn a lot of stuff that won't be on the PANCE.  ARC-PA mandates it.  Your position that one should avoid schools requiring organic 1 & 2 (because if they require that then they must surely be wasting students' time teaching extra useless material) is silly.

[MedicinePower]

We are required to learn a lot of stuff that won't be on the PANCE.  ARC-PA mandates it.  Your position that one should avoid schools requiring organic 1 & 2 (because if they require that then they must surely be wasting students' time teaching extra useless material) is silly.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I maintain that PA schools must have reasonable prerequisites. Failure to have reasonable prerequisites places the school into a category of "avoid" as they are far more likely to not cover what is necessary for a student to pass the PANCE and thus have low PANCE pass rates.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

I took organic AND inorganic chemistry, it was req for my BSN, shocking, I know.

general or intro? I'll need a link before I believe that ;)

[MedicinePower]

general or intro? I'll need a link before I believe that ;)

At the nursing program I teach in students are required to take Principals of Inorganic and Principals of Organic Chemistry.

[cinntsp]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I maintain that PA schools must have reasonable prerequisites. Failure to have reasonable prerequisites places the school into a category of "avoid" as they are far more likely to not cover what is necessary for a student to pass the PANCE and thus have low PANCE pass rates.

 

You have absolutely no data to back that up.  Please compile a list of all schools requiring two semesters of organic and compare their 5-year PANCE pass rates with the national average.  ARC-PA mandates the minimums that all programs must meet in order to be accredited.  To somehow equate a requirement of org 1/2 to a greater likelihood of ignoring ARC-PA's requirements is ludicrous.  

[EMEDPA]

I think if someone has to do orgo & biochem for their undergrad degree anyway then they may as well apply to places that require it (or medschool...).

one of my reasons for deciding PA over md back in the day was the ability to avoid these classes.....

in retrospect, I should have just taken them and applied to a DO program....live and learn

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I maintain that PA schools must have reasonable prerequisites. Failure to have reasonable prerequisites places the school into a category of "avoid" as they are far more likely to not cover what is necessary for a student to pass the PANCE and thus have low PANCE pass rates.

While I agree that organic is a giant time waster for medical practitioners, this seems to be the epitome of throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm not trying to sway you, but I'm stating for those pre-PAs out there that this isn't true. (My program doesn't require O-chem.)

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

At the nursing program I teach in students are required to take Principals of Inorganic and Principals of Organic Chemistry.

I'll need a school name so I can research it before I believe it. I've been in Nursing a long time, practicing and teaching, and have NEVER seen a requirement for gen chem/ochem 1&2 for SCiENCE majors, which is necessary for PA and med school. None of that healthcare majors stuff.

[MedicinePower]

While I agree that organic is a giant time waster for medical practitioners, this seems to be the epitome of throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm not trying to sway you, but I'm stating for those pre-PAs out there that this isn't true. (My program doesn't require O-chem.)

 

To be clear I am saying that the SECOND semester of organic chemistry should never be a requirement for PA school. The first semester teaches one the interactions of organic molecules and is very applicable to understanding biochemistry and complex medical physiology. The second semester, however, covers novel reagents and requires students to start with A and get to B in five steps or less. This is not useful in medical knowledge or understanding complex physiology.

[whoRyou]

Here is something I just found surfing. I have no idea about the school nor the program, but here it is http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/majors-and-minors/pre-health-options/fields/nursing/ If you look it is a 100 or a 200 class and it is an undergrad class and have NO idea if it's general or intro, but I find it interesting nevertheless 

 

The UW Nursing program requires the following science courses:

• Chemistry 120, 220, 221 Inorganic and Organic Chemistry
• Biology 118, 119 Physiology and Physiology lab
• Biological Structures 301 Human Anatomy
• Nutrition 300 Nutrition for Today
• Microbiology 301, 302 General Microbiology and lab
• Nursing 201 Lifespan Growth and Development

 

general or intro? I'll need a link before I believe that ;)

[SHU-CH]

Except that this isn't being true to the original mission and design of the PA profession- to be a second career for those already working in health care.

 

We are doing a ton of things that are not true to the original mission of the profession. I have a lot more concern about the specialty CAQ exams damaging our profession than looney pre-req requirements. If you don't like a school's pre-reqs, there are 150 others to choose from.

 

Times are changing, the profession is changing. Hopefully for the better.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

 

Here is something I just found surfing. I have no idea about the school nor the program, but here it is http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/majors-and-minors/pre-health-options/fields/nursing/ If you look it is a 100 or a 200 class and it is an undergrad class and have NO idea if it's general or intro, but I find it interesting nevertheless

 

The UW Nursing program requires the following science courses:

• Chemistry 120, 220, 221 Inorganic and Organic Chemistry
• Biology 118, 119 Physiology and Physiology lab
• Biological Structures 301 Human Anatomy
• Nutrition 300 Nutrition for Today
• Microbiology 301, 302 General Microbiology and lab
• Nursing 201 Lifespan Growth and Development

Like I said, never seen a nursing school require gen chem or ochem for science majors, which is what is required for PA school and med a school. See the following course description. All if the courses say not for ...[science]... majors.

 

CHEM 120 Principles of Chemistry I (5) NW, QSR

First course in a three-quarter overview of general chemistry, organic chemistry, and biochemistry. Not for students majoring in biochemistry, chemistry, or engineering. Includes matter and energy, chemical nomenclature, chemical reactions, stoichiometry, modern atomic theory, chemical bonding. Laboratory. Only 5 credits can be counted toward graduation from the following: CHEM 120, CHEM 142, CHEM 145. Offered: AS.

 

 

[whoRyou]

FWIW, this used to be my avatar LOL

[JohnnyM2]

We have gotten way off topic. The OP was not about what what the pre-reqs should be but, rather, getting some consistency. I don't mind that some programs demand lots of HCE while others require none. That's a matter of philosophy. I know there are folks on this forum who think PA candidates should work in health care for 10 years before going to PA school and others who think it's fine to go to PA school right out of college.

 

The problem is the disparity in academic pre-reqs that make the application process unnecessarily cumbersome. In Texas, for example, out of 7 schools, only one that requires a third semester of psych and a course in nutrition. I'm not saying these courses are a bad idea; quite the opposite, really. The problem is that candidates have to take two extra courses just to apply to this one school.

 

Sent from my Kindle Fire HDX using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[rev ronin]

If you don't understand that the HCE requirements are inseparable from the philosophical difference over how much academic preparation is needed, you've kind of missed the point.  Programs tend to require more HCE, more academics, or have a balance between the two.  Few programs are high on both or low on both.

 

It's really not feasible to standardize academic requirements and yet allow the current wide variability in HCE requirements, because programs chose different emphases for different target student populations.

[rcreek]

The second semester, however, covers novel reagents and requires students to start with A and get to B in five steps or less. This is not useful in medical knowledge or understanding complex physiology.

 

I know it's off topic for this post, but I think this is an over-generalization of O-Chem II courses. My course was not like that at all. Sure we had our share of synthesis problems, but we covered more things like aromatic reactivity, tetrahedral intermediates, radical reactions, NMR, etc.

 

At any rate, I don't think it should be a pre-req for PA school. And the pre-req mess was indeed really frustrating when I was preparing to apply.

[MedicinePower]

I know it's off topic for this post, but I think this is an over-generalization of O-Chem II courses. My course was not like that at all. Sure we had our share of synthesis problems, but we covered more things like aromatic reactivity, tetrahedral intermediates, radical reactions, NMR, etc.

 

At any rate, I don't think it should be a pre-req for PA school. And the pre-req mess was indeed really frustrating when I was preparing to apply.

 

That's true, but it still isn't applicable to medical practice and definitely not appropriate for PA school.

[SHU-CH]

Students probably take a good deal of "pre-reqs" that do not have direct applicability to the practice of medicine. We require some kind of upper-level math, but I freely admit I have not used much Calculus in my daily life (and I don't even remember how to work that big "S" looking thing - was that integrals? Derivatives? Yeesh.)

 

In evaluating an admissions jacket, I like to see that someone took a mess of a courseload and did well. If someone can carry physics, organic and cell bio in a semester (none of which we require), I have very few concerns about their ability to survive PA school. I usually have very deep concerns about students who return to school and take one course at a time and get an "A" in all of them.

[MedicinePower]

In evaluating an admissions jacket, I like to see that someone took a mess of a courseload and did well. If someone can carry physics, organic and cell bio in a semester (none of which we require), I have very few concerns about their ability to survive PA school. I usually have very deep concerns about students who return to school and take one course at a time and get an "A" in all of them.

 

How do you reconcile this with a student who works full-time, has a family, and is working on pre-reqs in order to become a PA? While physics and organic (at least orgo 2) are completely inapplicible to the daily practice of medicine, cell bio is vital to understanding why and how medications work, the pathology of many diseases (including cancer), etc.

[Will352ns]

This thread is a prime example of why there aren't consistant pre-recs.  Everyone has their own idea of what should be needed.

 

Some say classes like O-Chem and BioChem are not needed....some think it is a good limtus test....some actually think these classes help a student understand the material (heavens forbid).

 

Me, I took BioChem as a prerec.  Although it isn't on the PANCE, it really did help me understand some of the material that was being presented...especially in the relm of metabolic disorders.  I had a foundation to build on.  I never took OChem because it didn't seem that relevent to me....the schools I applied to required one or the other.

[SHU-CH]

How do you reconcile this with a student who works full-time, has a family, and is working on pre-reqs in order to become a PA? 

 

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. If you are asking whether I would be concerned about a student with a lot of outside obligations, the answer is yes. In most cases these will not go away during PA school. I would never exclude a candidate due to this, but during an interview they will need to impress the committee that they have thought long and hard about what they are getting into, their finances are in order, they have a good support system, etc. People can make any life circumstances work in PA school - we have had students succeed in the face of births, deaths, marriage, sick family members, and everything else you can imagine. If you intend to bring things like this to PA school with you that is fine - just make sure you can impress to the adcom that you are really on the ball. Success in PA school is more guts than brains.

 

I'll give you a "devil's advocate" view from an adcom committee - you have one seat left:

• Applicant 1: Knew she wanted to be a PA her entire life and has directed all her energy and effort into becoming one. She took a monster course load in college and excelled with a 4.0 pre-req GPA.
• Applicant 2: Worked in X career for 10 years and then decided to become a PA. Applicant has taken a single pre-req course each semester and gotten an "A" in all of them, also resulting in a 4.0 pre-req GPA.

Do you pick applicant 2 because you want a diverse class? Does doing so in effect "penalize" applicant 1 for being driven and goal directed right from the start?

 

 

Here is another one that is frequently discussed on the forum, the so called "last 60 credits" question. Again, you have one seat left:

• Applicant 1: Knew she wanted to be a PA her entire life and has directed all her energy and effort into becoming one. Took a monster course load in college and excelled.
• Applicant 2: Did not know what he wanted to do when he went to college. Had a bad freshman year due to "difficulties adjusting." Sophomore year he decided to become a PA and he performed well subsequently.

If you accept applicant 2 over applicant 1, what message does that send? I never automatically exclude someone because they took a few lumps. (Heck I took my share - you should see my organic grades. My transcript looked like I would have had a hard time synthesizing water vapor from water and fire.) I guess what I am trying to get it is that you are not competing against a list of prerequisites in the application process - you are competing against other people with very diverse backgrounds and generally excellent qualifications.

 

 

I will tell you a secret: I love doing admissions interviews, but I hate making the decisions. Meeting the people who are the future of our profession is tremendously rewarding; making the decisions is hell. Adcoms agonize over most decisions. They know that their decisions have serious consequences for applicants, programs and the profession. It is not something that is taken lightly. 

[Timon]

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. If you are asking whether I would be concerned about a student with a lot of outside obligations, the answer is yes. In most cases these will not go away during PA school. I would never exclude a candidate due to this, but during an interview they will need to impress the committee that they have thought long and hard about what they are getting into, their finances are in order, they have a good support system, etc. People can make any life circumstances work in PA school - we have had students succeed in the face of births, deaths, marriage, sick family members, and everything else you can imagine. If you intend to bring things like this to PA school with you that is fine - just make sure you can impress to the adcom that you are really on the ball. Success in PA school is more guts than brains.

 

I'll give you a "devil's advocate" view from an adcom committee - you have one seat left:

• Applicant 1: Knew she wanted to be a PA her entire life and has directed all her energy and effort into becoming one. She took a monster course load in college and excelled with a 4.0 pre-req GPA.
• Applicant 2: Worked in X career for 10 years and then decided to become a PA. Applicant has taken a single pre-req course each semester and gotten an "A" in all of them, also resulting in a 4.0 pre-req GPA.

Do you pick applicant 2 because you want a diverse class? Does doing so in effect "penalize" applicant 1 for being driven and goal directed right from the start?

 

 

Or do you take applicant 2 because they have life experience and are certain what they want to do with life where as applicant one could be on the fence and applied to med school on top of PA school and is telling the adcom what they want to hear to get into your program.

 

Just playing devils advocate.

 

Applicant 2 has more to lose than applicant 1.