Compensation for being a PA - medical expert in court

[sasanders8]

Question: Are there any PA's out there that have had to testify in court as a medical expert? If so, were YOU compensated for preparing and testifying in court or was your supervising physician compensated?

 

My supervising physician is telling me that she should be compensated even though I was the medical expert in court. She says my compensation is "part of my salary" but she received a check from the lawyer that she is keeping for herself! This seems incredibly wrong to me. Any thoughts?

[EMEDPA]

totally bogus. bill her for your time to prep the case, drive both ways from home and attend the hearing if she says it is part of your salary...why did the check go to her in the first place?

I have worked as an expert consultant before and none of my sp's were even aware I was doing it....

[sasanders8]

I work in an outpatient practice with one physician. My SP was treating a patient for several years and then the patient's care was transferred to me for the last three years. The only reason my SP was even involved in any of this was because it was a mutual patient. I ended up getting a subpoena to testify because I had seen the patient for a longer period of time. We both met with the lawyer prior to court, but apparently my SP had told the lawyer beforehand to address any compensations to the practice (not to me directly). I asked my office manager about this and she spoke to my SP, who said that I do not get compensated for my testimony, but rather it goes to the practice. My fee is "incorporated into my salary." I was like WHAT?? I feel like I should ask a lawyer how to proceed. I haven't sat down to talk to her about it, because I don't even know how to begin the conversation... How can she take compensation for my time?

[EMEDPA]

if you like the job it probably isn't worth fighting about. we are probably talking about only a few hundred bucks.

[Gordon, PA-C]

Question: Are there any PA's out there that have had to testify in court as a medical expert? If so, were YOU compensated for preparing and testifying in court or was your supervising physician compensated?

 

My supervising physician is telling me that she should be compensated even though I was the medical expert in court. She says my compensation is "part of my salary" but she received a check from the lawyer that she is keeping for herself! This seems incredibly wrong to me. Any thoughts?

 

 

Just curious....what was the defendant PA accused of doing?

[EMEDPA]

Read post #3. Had nothing to do with a pa.

[medic25]

Are you officially testifying as an expert witness, or are you just giving witness testimony regarding a patient whose care you were involved in?

If you are an expert witness, then you absolutely should be billing for your own services. You are doing the case prep and putting in the time. Remember that only a PA can accurately testify about the standard of care provided by a PA; your supervising physician is welcome to testify regarding physician care, but she did not attend PA school and cannot fully speak to how a PA should typically handle a case.

[whoRyou]

Once I testified as an expert witness as a P.I. in a case and I billed for my own services. Granted I am not a P.A yet, so maybe it is different. Does anyone know? Is there an 'expert' in da house? LOL :;;D:

[ventana]

If you were on the clock (did not burn PTO) to go to the depositions the doc might have a point

 

BUT if it was on your day off, and you went in.... well then I would remind the doc that they either need to pay you, or give you the check.

 

Also, would make sense to explain that you need an SP to practice medicine, but not to be an expert witness

 

really cheap of the doc - I would have thought splitting it with you would be fair

[sasanders8]

The case involved a patient who was involved in a motor vehicle accident and I was the patient's treating provider. I went to court on my lunch break and missed about an hour of work. The compensation fee was $2000 but it was addressed to the practice and not me. I was told by my supervising physician that I would not be compensated because "being a medical expert is part of my job and that fee is incorporated into my salary" however she is cashing the check! This does not seem right to me. I prepared for court over the weekend and did not get paid for those hours?!?! There is nothing in my contract or anything in writing saying that the practice will collect any lawyer fees rather than the physician assistant. I'm not sure how to proceed.

[Guest Paula]

The physician is dishonest. It is sad that she does not think you are a medical expert. Send her a bill for the hours you spent preparing for court. See what she says. Have a resume ready in case you need it for your next job. This is the type of thing that would make me resign if I was not compensated for time put in. It would have broken the trust I had in the SP. Did the SP have any more involvement other that the initial meeting with the lawyer? Call the lawyer and ask them when will you get your check and see what they say. Tell them you were not compensated for your time or preparation and it is not in your employment contract that compensation is part of it. Then, when they tell you the physician requested to have the check made out to her or the practice, ask them if you can hire them to sue her. (I am being somewhat facetious but i probably would do this just for the principle of it all.)

[Guest Paula]

oops, I think I misread your statement about medical expert. Your SP said YOU are expected to be a medical expert as part of Your job and it's part of your salary, with no extra compensation for expert testimony. The SP wasn't referring to herself. Ask her for a $2000 bonus, and if she refuses, when you have salary negotiations ask for a 12,000 raise or so. You deserve it.

[Will352ns]

Leave this practice as soon as you can...without burning a bridge. This SP is blatantly ripping you off. This SP only cares about their bottom line....not yours.

 

Not a PA yet, but I'm not a spring chicken either.

[True Anomaly]

Are you officially testifying as an expert witness, or are you just giving witness testimony regarding a patient whose care you were involved in?

If you are an expert witness, then you absolutely should be billing for your own services. You are doing the case prep and putting in the time.

 

Um, this. You seem to be confusing what the term "medical expert" is in a courtroom setting- when that term is thrown about, it generally means that you are testifying about a patient you did NOT see in a clinical setting, but offering opinions about someone else's care. It doesn't sound like this is the case- so how was it that a patient that both you and your SP saw ended up in court along with both of you? Were you both being sued for malpractice? Or was this some civil trial between those involved in a car accident? Although your SP seems a little selfish, there is a very important distinction to make here.

[G. Davenport]

This should have been addressed up front and before you testified. And if they knew you expected the fee...

 

I'd be updating my CV and moving on. I'd make sure a tail to my malpractice was paid by the organization too.

 

Or you could sit down and try and resolve it.

 

If you stay, make a formal request for comp time for the week-end and lunch hours.

 

Good luck.

[physasst]

Well, a few thoughts here.

 

1. This was a patient you cared for and you were giving testimony about the patient and the care you provided correct? In that case, I actually think the money belongs to the practice. You saw the patient presumably during your normal working hours, and did not see them independently correct? Most practices I know, would consider this a part of your clinical expectations, as you saw the patient clinically. Presumably, they are covering your malpractice premiums, and providing you with employment.

 

2. Now, this changes if you are called to testify as an "expert witness". This is not the same as being the treating provider, but rather acting as a third party to testify about the care given, or the diagnoses, or actions of another provider regarding a patient you have not seen clinically. In that case, I think the money belongs to you.

 

3. Any of you younger PAs, or students thinking about doing expert witness work, make sure to check with your employer to see if they allow this. Most of the bigger, prominent academic centers actually have policies that do not allow physicians or PAs to work as expert witnesses, and they will consider it grounds for suspension or termination. I know a PA that this happened to.

 

My institution for example strictly forbids it, except in cases where you provided direct care to the patient, and then the legal department is directly involved and any money that is generated as a result goes directly to the institution. This is in our policies. The reason is simple....reputation. Large, academic centers survive on their reputation and referrals. They cannot risk one provider, doesn't matter if it is a physician, PA, NP, RN, whatever, possibly endangering that in testimony.

[sasanders8]

Thanks to everyone who responded. To address a few questions, this was not a malpractice case but rather a civil suit. I work in pain management and my testimony as "a medical expert" was that her pain was most likely related to a car accident that was caused by someone else, and not related to a pre-existing condition.

 

I think I will at least request comp time for the preparation that I put into trial. I still believe that I should be compensated, but I know that even when I sit down to discuss this come Monday afternoon, the answer is still going to be "NO - this compensation belongs to the practice."

 

As for everything else...I may just update my CV and start looking elsewhere. I love the patients that I see and what I do at the practice, but its difficult when trust has been broken with a SP.

[nhpilot]

1. This was a patient you cared for and you were giving testimony about the patient and the care you provided correct? In that case, I actually think the money belongs to the practice. You saw the patient presumably during your normal working hours, and did not see them independently correct? Most practices I know, would consider this a part of your clinical expectations, as you saw the patient clinically. Presumably, they are covering your malpractice premiums, and providing you with employment.

 

This. You aren't testifying as a "Medical Expert," you are testifying as a medical provider. A Medical Expert is, "a person who is a specialist in a subject, often technical, who may present his/her expert opinion without having been a witness to any occurrence relating to the lawsuit or criminal case" ie, testifying on behalf of an existing patient.

I think your SP is absolutely correct in taking the fee for the practice, and unless you are paid overtime for working over a certain number of hours, your prep time should also be expected in your scope of practice.

[coloradopa]

We had a similar problem where I was. The issue was the practice had a policy that all speaking money and medical expert money went into the general pot and was divided up in the partnership. The thought was the practice didn't want a partner who was spending all their time doing expert witness and industry speaking when they should be building the practice. This was obviously written before they had PAs. We talked about it and they had the same concerns that they wanted me focused on the practice and not on a side business. In the end we came to an agreement that it would be credited to my CME account and I could use the money for CME purposes (in addition to the $1500 a year we got). It worked out well and I took several tax free trips to Turkey, Barcelona, Hawaii etc. This might be a solution for the OP.

 

Dave

[just_nelle]

Can we revive this thread after 6 or so years?

For those of you who do expert witnessing (i.e. reviewing and providing expert insight on a case that you are not involved in) and are employed by a large health care system (or better yet are faculty at a university) would you mind sharing how your compensation is handled?

I ask because although I have been serving as an expert witness for various cases for years, I was recently notified by my primary employer (where I am on faculty) that all compensation received for this work must be paid directly to my institution and can be used for professional development activities.

This does not seem right. 

Side note: I only do case prep, calls, and depositions on my own time, without utilization of institutional resources. 

Curious to hear what others have to say/if they have encountered similar situations. 

[sas5814]

then they may kiss your....

anyway if you are using your time and your resources they must be high if they think they are entitled to the money. Lets say you had a yard business you ran after work and on the weekends. Would they be entitled to that money too? I think not.

Have an agreement with a lawyer. Bill them for your services. Check directly to you. It isn't even the business of your employer.

[MediMike]

Unfortunately as mentioned earlier in this thread when you work for a University system as faculty they pretty much own you and all that you do in regards to medicine to include intellectual property rights, ability to practice outside the system, volunteer etc.

Think you may be out of luck but a discussion to be held with your department head.

[rev ronin]

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.  The only way one survives financially as faculty is side gigs: consulting, speaking, writing, part time work...

[sas5814]

I have to agree. They didn't take the top of your head off and cram your knowledge in your brain. You went to school, worked hard, studied, and paid for the experience. The idea they own your knowledge is absurd on its face and I doubt would survive legal challenge.

[just_nelle]

Update: my division chair just sent me the SOM's policy on this and it very clearly spells out that no monies can be paid directly to me and must be paid to the institution. 

From there, I can use the monies for:

1) support of departmental missions of teaching, research, and patient care

2) professional development such as conference travel or research support

3) support of the faculty member's base compensation (i.e. I cannot give myself a raise or be paid extra)

If I do legal consulting and do not have compensation sent to the university I am subject to disciplinary action. 

I am in a tough position because I am currently involved in two cases. I don't want to abruptly stop consulting and come across flaky, but at the same time, I don't want to essentially work for free. 

My department chair gave me the name of the SOM attorney should I have any questions. I will likely reach out to her to discuss. 

Otherwise, I guess my two options are:

1) Abruptly stop in in the middle of these cases.

2) Continue to consult but begin using institutional time and resources (i.e. doing case prep/calls during business hours, from my university office, etc.)

Any other thoughts? Appreciate the comments so far!