We Choose NP Campaign

[jmj11]

I don't know if you've noticed the "We Choose NP" campaign. It is airing on major networks. What do you think? Do you think the PA profession could benefit from such an ad or would it be money poorly spent?

I did just see a PA ad online (not TV) which you may be familiar with.

Edited March 22, 2023 by jmj11

[Cideous]

We lost.  They won.  They choose "Practitioner" and we choose "Assistant/Associate".  As a PA who is now in Govt regulation I can confirm just how devastating AAPA's and other PA orgs decision to disregard the consulting agencies recommendation to become Medical Practitioners.  It has killed this profession for those now entering the field.  Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement and practice autonomy is everything.....and they pissed it away.  

[sas5814]

I unplugged from policy and politics after the HOD vote on title change. I gave up hope after 20 years of working at the local, state, and national level for the profession. I got tired of fighting to make people see the obvious.

I say good for the NPs. They showed a willingness to fight hard to get things done and they have. They deserve what they got because they did the work to get there not because they are all that and a jelly donut. They showed the political will and perserverance required. We wasted 2 years and a million dollars so we could ignore the advice we paid for.

[ThePAC]

Nah NPs gotta go or American healthcare is doomed. Seeing highly critical mistakes daily from NP colleagues. Very frightening 

[ventana]

NP are winning politically.  But we should not cuddle up to them as I am sending “correction” coming.   There is going to be studies come out that show they provide inferior care (sorry you are simply not well enough trained).   Then their Med mal increases.  AMA will jump all over it.   I doubt they will loose independence but they will become a little less desirable to employers then they are now.  
 

I love being a PA but as a practice owner having to pay a doc it gets me mad to see new grad ignorant NP as independent.  

[Hope2PA]

2 hours ago, ventana said:

NP are winning politically.  But we should not cuddle up to them as I am sending “correction” coming.   There is going to be studies come out that show they provide inferior care (sorry you are simply not well enough trained).   Then their Med mal increases.  AMA will jump all over it.   I doubt they will loose independence but they will become a little less desirable to employers then they are now.  
 

I love being a PA but as a practice owner having to pay a doc it gets me mad to see new grad ignorant NP as independent.  

Who will provide that research? Nurses sure the heck will not. Physicians may do research but will likely have a few PAs in the mix, so it will be poor care from "All Midlevels", even if done using 98 NPs and 2 PAs. Are PAs doing enough PA specific research? Doubtfully, or it just doesn't get put out there.. Would PAs consider research and or publication on differences in education and level of care between PA and NP,  also very doubtful! Don't step on any toes. How many PA admin are there and how many would tell hospital hiring group that PAs should only be hired? Do Nurses promote hiring NP over PA, YES, I've heard it in meetings with CNP, CEO and CFO. Comment was, NPs are practioner's and can function without physician, PAs are assistants that are not as effective because they can only assist a physician. Only in very few instances should PA be utilized because they need consistent supervision. 

[iconic]

Our healthcare and economy are crumbling and here we are fighting over petty things 

[ventana]

8 hours ago, Hope2PA said:

Who will provide that research? Nurses sure the heck will not. Physicians may do research but will likely have a few PAs in the mix, so it will be poor care from "All Midlevels", even if done using 98 NPs and 2 PAs. Are PAs doing enough PA specific research? Doubtfully, or it just doesn't get put out there.. Would PAs consider research and or publication on differences in education and level of care between PA and NP,  also very doubtful! Don't step on any toes. How many PA admin are there and how many would tell hospital hiring group that PAs should only be hired? Do Nurses promote hiring NP over PA, YES, I've heard it in meetings with CNP, CEO and CFO. Comment was, NPs are practioner's and can function without physician, PAs are assistants that are not as effective because they can only assist a physician. Only in very few instances should PA be utilized because they need consistent supervision. 

AMA is trying to get this (And they have been trying for decades)

AAPA needs to get the PA data so we can not be lumped in

 

As the saying goes BAD data is worse then no data, unless you are the AMA and trying to protect your turf.  The NP's flooding the market, hired by hospitals that just plug them into jobs, is going to be their undoing...... 

[NEQuadrant]

I'm sorry, but if the AMA can't produce solid data after >2 decades of investigation there's either nothing to be found, or they're so incompetent they deserve what's happening. I would hope it's more of the former, otherwise why force physicians to do research in their education if none of them can do it? For crying out loud this isn't the bleeding edge of science where they have to put brain power in to come up with novel experiments to produce the data they want, the data literally already exists. My conspiracy theory is that the AMA has actually done the research and has concluded the same thing that NPs have presented, but they obviously don't want to publish it because it would result in a complete meltdown of most of the profession.

And the whole med mal increasing thing is such a boogeyman argument. Increasing medical malpractice would sure, limit the profits of whatever insurance company they're using. But they have the numbers and political power that imagine they threatened to boycott the company nationwide as a result. Less profits vs complete loss of business....I think the choice is obvious there. Plus, when NPs work in government the government is the one who covers them. The government isn't going to risk dropping NPs at the expense of losing lobbying $$$ from the nursing PACs.

[ventana]

I have been practicing for a few decades

 

I have seen the quality of new NP go down drastically.  It is not a static thing

 

I for one hope AMA calls out the diploma factories of the DNP and NP world.  They are a danger to society 

[cinntsp]

I primarily work in a state with NP independence.  I was recently doing some locums hospitalist work for a new program and in that time they have fired 4 or 5 NPs for poor patient care.  Interestingly, the staffing company and hospital are looking to avoid any PAs and hire NPs only so that we don't have to be supervised and put medical liability on the docs.  You will see docs and orgs saying how much they love the MD/DO-PA relationship and that we should all work as a team...yet in practice no docs want the liability or supervisory burden.  Docs don't have our back no matter how much they tout preferring PAs over NPs because we bend the knee.

 

I used to be much more team-oriented but I've been out of school long enough now to see how dangerous many NPs are.

[Hope2PA]

I live in an NP independent state. PAs struggle to get anything passed, why? When you have a few nurses and doctors on legislation,, items may not  always get failed, they just somehow never make it to the floor to even be voted on, then, in my state, legislative time ends. Better luck next year.  you, PAs, are basically screwed. 
Cherry on top!! Today I found out our receptionist, who works about 30 hours a week, has been taking fully online courses to become BSN. Not LPN doing LPN to RN, she said entire program. I acted sympathetic about having to take time off for clinical , and she said everything is online and virtual.  "It is a really quick easy program" and will go direct into NP program!  No hands on experience.  
 

[SedRate]

48 minutes ago, Hope2PA said:

everything is online and virtual.  "It is a really quick easy program" and will go direct into NP program!  No hands on experience.  

I want to emphasize your point here and add, Yikes.

[rev ronin]

1 hour ago, SedRate said:

I want to emphasize your point here and add, Yikes.

We need a "This can't possibly end well" emoji.

[DiggySRNA]

2 hours ago, Hope2PA said:

Cherry on top!! Today I found out our receptionist, who works about 30 hours a week, has been taking fully online courses to become BSN. Not LPN doing LPN to RN, she said entire program. I acted sympathetic about having to take time off for clinical , and she said everything is online and virtual.  "It is a really quick easy program" and will go direct into NP program!  No hands on experience.  
 

Which program is this (post-covid)?

I refuse to believe a non-RN can go from pre-licensure BSN nurse to NP without once touching a patient. Not even that, but the NCLEX requires all pre-licensure BSN-RN candidates to have completed 400-800 hours of clinical experience and the CCNE (the accrediting body) requires ALL students to have experience (either all hands on or a mix of both physical and virtual). Your coworker is probably going to one of those Florida nursing programs...ya know...the ones in hot seat right now for granting fake nursing degrees where the "graduates" are being jailed as we speak and banned from the profession.

I googled and hit the first one that popped up; https://www.herzing.edu/nursing/bsn-degree/online

Even this one said "onsite clinicals and intensives" are required. Another well known common online-nursing program is chamberlain and they require onsite clinicals at a partner facility. So I'd LOVE to know which accredited program your coworker is attending that's all online and virtual.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Diggy

[Hope2PA]

46 minutes ago, Diggy said:

Which program is this (post-covid)?

I refuse to believe a non-RN can go from pre-licensure BSN nurse to NP without once touching a patient. Not even that, but the NCLEX requires all pre-licensure BSN-RN candidates to have completed 400-800 hours of clinical experience and the CCNE (the accrediting body) requires ALL students to have experience (either all hands on or a mix of both physical and virtual). Your coworker is probably going to one of those Florida nursing programs...ya know...the ones in hot seat right now for granting fake nursing degrees where the "graduates" are being jailed as we speak and banned from the profession.

I googled and hit the first one that popped up; https://www.herzing.edu/nursing/bsn-degree/online

Even this one said "onsite clinicals and intensives" are required. Another well known common online-nursing program is chamberlain and they require onsite clinicals at a partner facility. So I'd LOVE to know which accredited program your coworker is attending that's all online and virtual.

I thought the same which is why I ask how she was able to accomplish this. was told it was a school in Tennessee, few states away from us. Her family member, who lives near program attended and told her about it. She told me she had expected to move, but the program set it up to be all online. I ask specifically about clinical and she said they set up everything virtual. She has been working at current location for over 3 years, as receptionist. Maybe when she starts NP she will have to do some real life clinical. But she specifically stated, at least for RN she did not and based on what she assumes, will be same for NP. Again, I also thought there was no way to achieve this, which is why I ask specific questions.  I do know if an NP who did around 450 of 600 clinical requirements virtually, during COVID.

[ventana]

5 hours ago, Hope2PA said:

I live in an NP independent state. PAs struggle to get anything passed, why? When you have a few nurses and doctors on legislation,, items may not  always get failed, they just somehow never make it to the floor to even be voted on, then, in my state, legislative time ends. Better luck next year.  you, PAs, are basically screwed. 
Cherry on top!! Today I found out our receptionist, who works about 30 hours a week, has been taking fully online courses to become BSN. Not LPN doing LPN to RN, she said entire program. I acted sympathetic about having to take time off for clinical , and she said everything is online and virtual.  "It is a really quick easy program" and will go direct into NP program!  No hands on experience.  
 

 

4 hours ago, SedRate said:

I want to emphasize your point here and add, Yikes.

 

2 hours ago, Hope2PA said:

I thought the same which is why I ask how she was able to accomplish this. was told it was a school in Tennessee, few states away from us. Her family member, who lives near program attended and told her about it. She told me she had expected to move, but the program set it up to be all online. I ask specifically about clinical and she said they set up everything virtual. She has been working at current location for over 3 years, as receptionist. Maybe when she starts NP she will have to do some real life clinical. But she specifically stated, at least for RN she did not and based on what she assumes, will be same for NP. Again, I also thought there was no way to achieve this, which is why I ask specific questions.  I do know if an NP who did around 450 of 600 clinical requirements virtually, during COVID.

 

 

 

So I was responsible for hiring at last position

 

10:1 for NP versus PA in applicants

EVERY SINGLE ONE of the NPs stated they had done their rotations as that was it.  400-600 hours of OBSERVATION - not patient management. They all said they would need extensive training the first year (ahh is that now what school is for?)  There is a number of direct entry NP programs out there that you go into, get and RN, then NP and never actually have to work as an NP

 

This is what we are up against....  just like the pill mills in FL fueled the opiate crisis we have the NP flooding the markets

We are going to get dragged down with them unless we get out ahead of this train wreck.....  

[sas5814]

11 hours ago, ventana said:

We are going to get dragged down with them unless we get out ahead of this train wreck..... 

I fear it is already too late. NPs are a growing profession at a rate more than double PAs. They have independence in more than half the states and will have it in all 50. They have big numbers and big money for political work AND they don't really care what the physicians think.

Meanwhile we are STILL tip toeing around everyone trying not to offend while being supplanted. We still have people waxing poetic for the "close collaborative relationship." We are ruled by fear.

These things have a momentum that is hard to stop and the momentum on this is HUGE.

I fear for the future of the profession. 20 years ago I predicted what is happening now and I was shouted down as an alarmist. Unless something changes in a big way and I mean NOW this profession is doomed.