AAPA and Racism

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

7 hours ago, NOLAPALady said:

Thanks for responding. I understand the question OP raised. I don't understand why it is a question. I think that is the fundamental difference between to two different thought camps partipating in this thread.

Regardless, I hope you read my original response and will implement some suggestions or that it was at minimum thought provoking of your own personal experiences.

 

7 hours ago, NOLAPALady said:

I may not have a place in this discussion because I'm a prePA student but I feel inclined to respond to this post. I have lurked on this forum for a few years and have read many debates regarding various issues, most about OTP and the name change. Not until reading this thread have I ever pondered, "Do I want to be a part of this professional group?"

I'm a woman, African American and a southerner. I know racism and sexism, they are close personal foes. I know the silence of my non-ethnic colleagues, it's often deafening, every time there is media attention focused on disparities or violence against black people. I'm frankly not surprised by some of the "its not my/PA/AAPA problem" responses but I am discouraged by them. How will I be treated by this group of professionals? How often will I have to advocate for patients against my own colleagues due to their prejudice/inherent bias? How quickly will I become the "angry black woman" to my PA peers? 

My suggestion to everyone regarding the letter is to self examine why you think the letter is a bad idea? And during that self examination ask yourself some other deeply personal moral questions. Why do I care so deeply about this letter? What have I done to help or harm? Why am I so shocked or disinterested in the recent events? Why am I avoiding? Have I reached out to my black friends or colleagues , why or why not? What will I say? Where do I get my information?

I'm not trying to start a debate or highjack the thread. I just want to not feel like I'm joining a group of professionals who think racism is a republican vs democratic political issue. Because it's not. The black community is America, not a separate place off in the bowels of the states. Its the same suburbs, country town, urban areas that exist all over the country which means it's felt in those suburban hospitals, country town urgent care ER hybrids and urban trauma centers. It's impossible for the issue to exist as simply a political talking point, it should be discussed openly and the AAPA should be a part of that discussion.

I think your perspective is always welcome. I agree with you, I personally don't understand why it's a question, but because it has been raised, to me that makes it worthy of discussing. Not discussing it is how we got here.

Also some advice from a person who has been involved in multiple professional organizations, your always going to have individuals who disagree and sometimes to an extent you think is insane. It's why medicine has several different organizations such as American College of Physicians, AMA, Physicians for patient protection. Even within specialties there are multiple groups. They all take stances, even on topics you wouldn't think were debatable, and sometimes they split into more groups based on those beliefs. 

Point is, if you looking for a group that only does everything you like, you're just going to have to start your own group. You're going to be starting a lot of group too if you judge the group by it's individual members.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

3 hours ago, rev ronin said:

Would anyone mind if I split this thread to separate out the abortion-related posts?  Since I'm posting in this thread, I want to be completely transparent in any moderator tool use here.

Agreed. If it deviates off topic from the OP intent "should AAPA make a statement on divisive issues," I think it would be appropriate to split. 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

4 hours ago, MediMike said:

I guess the major schism here is how you frame the thought of racism and police violence in America? Whether it is a "political stance" that you are for or against or whether it is a human rights issue. 

The recurrent theme being put forth on this post is that the AAPA should not be involved in such "politically divisive" issues as this. I'd ask that you did not politicize such a basic human rights issues as racism, it reflects poorly on us as a profession.  You want to give the AAPA more items on their plate to manage? Give the public a glance at this thread where we have  medical professionals arguing against their professional organization making a statement against racism, against demonstrating solidarity with those affected by it, and by suggesting a path towards a more equitable future in our field.

That is one way to guarantee a whole load of trouble.

Agreed. Do we need to get involved in divisive issues? No. But this isn't divisive. I mean, this truly is a basic human right. This is a slam dunk. No one disagrees with it. They just disagree if we make a statement, even one that they agree with?  I say we let them walk if they want to leave over that.

[MediMike]

3 hours ago, rev ronin said:

I mean, I don't mean to keep coming back to it, but the OP's point was that she perceived abortion to be a bigger minority human rights issue. 

And this is where I think you're wrong. The OP's statement completely dismissed minority rights/racism in favor of an anti-choice message. The post explicitly stated that it supercedes racism. 

Did you have a typo in your post and mean to say "bigger THAN minority rights issues"?

[ANESMCR]

20 minutes ago, MediMike said:

And this is where I think you're wrong. The OP's statement completely dismissed minority rights/racism in favor of an anti-choice message. The post explicitly stated that it supercedes racism. 

Did you have a typo in your post and mean to say "bigger THAN minority rights issues"?

This^
 

The OP’s statement is not only inappropriate but also an oxymoron in nature ie “how is AAPA going to support a human/civil rights movement without supporting my personal belief that we should remove the rights of another entire group of people”. At the same time belittling everything that is going on right now with that very statement.

Edited June 8, 2020 by ANESMCR

[rev ronin]

31 minutes ago, MediMike said:

Did you have a typo in your post and mean to say "bigger THAN minority rights issues"?

Is it so hard to understand that, from the point of view, shared by somewhere between 12 and 40% of Americans, that fetuses are people with at least some amount of intrinsic human rights?  That from this perspective, the number of deaths of black folks due to police action pale in comparison to the >100,000 abortions of black fetuses every year?  That's not dismissing minority oppression, it is, from that perspective, highlighting a vastly bigger minority human rights problem.

Of course, if you reject the humanity of fetuses, a moral choice, then they have no human rights. You don't have to believe it, but please do try to understand the arguments of those who disagree with you--that's the whole point of my explaining what I perceive to be the OP's point, rather than expecting you or anyone else will change perspectives.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

56 minutes ago, MediMike said:

And this is where I think you're wrong. The OP's statement completely dismissed minority rights/racism in favor of an anti-choice message. The post explicitly stated that it supercedes racism. 

Did you have a typo in your post and mean to say "bigger THAN minority rights issues"?

 

8 minutes ago, rev ronin said:

Is it so hard to understand that, from the point of view, shared by somewhere between 12 and 40% of Americans, that fetuses are people with at least some amount of intrinsic human rights?  That from this perspective, the number of deaths of black folks due to police action pale in comparison to the >100,000 abortions of black fetuses every year?  That's not dismissing minority oppression, it is, from that perspective, highlighting a vastly bigger minority human rights problem.

Of course, if you reject the humanity of fetuses, a moral choice, then they have no human rights. You don't have to believe it, but please do try to understand the arguments of those who disagree with you--that's the whole point of my explaining what I perceive to be the OP's point, rather than expecting you or anyone else will change perspectives.

I have to agree with Rev, that from the OPs perspective, she was not minimizing the issue. Now, if you don’t think abortion is an issue, then of course the thought of putting racism below it does minimize it to you. 
 

but as you state rev, only 12-40% of American hold that view, which does make it very divisive. Racism, something all but racists are against, is not divisive. Now if AAPA starts getting into the nitty-gritty, like policy details on how to combat racism, I might say they are breaking away from their lane. AAPA, in my opinion, could support a policy that is data driven to reduce healthcare inequality among ethnic groups, such as grants to traditionally black colleges to create PA programs, but not just their personal preference or ideology on how racism can been fixed as a whole. Leave that to the behavioral economists.

again though, this is just a blanket statement that racism exists, it shouldn’t, and we should be part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it. A statement I think we can all agree with.

[rev ronin]

51 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

[...] but as you state rev, only 12-40% of American hold that view, which does make it very divisive. Racism, something all but racists are against, is not divisive. Now if AAPA starts getting into the nitty-gritty, like policy details on how to combat racism, I might say they are breaking away from their lane.

Thank you.

Divisive is fine; we won't all agree here. Dismissiveness, on the other hand, definitely does not help dialogue.

I would argue, to change topics slightly, is that declarations without "nitty-gritty" are toothless platitudes, redundant non-sequiturs in a world where--and I agree with you here--only racists DON'T oppose racism.  To that extent, I think the latest AAPA statement does a reasonably good job of listing concrete actions that DO stay in their lane.

[Boatswain2PA]

On 6/6/2020 at 11:44 AM, Paula said:

Does anyone have any concerns about the AAPA statement of supporting the Black community and combating racism?  I get it that as health care providers we are to treat everyone equally.  I believe I do.  I logged on to the Huddle yesterday and saw the posts, was going to respond to one of them and contact that person directly.  Unfortunately that person has either been blocked or banned or voluntarily left the Huddle.  I am saddened by that.  

I think my problem with all of this is that the AAPA is getting involved in politically charged matters and that is not their place unless all areas of inequality are addressed, not just racism.  

This means AAPA needs to address the inequality of abortion - the taking of human life that has had the opportunity for life snuffed out.  To me, this is the most egregious inequality and injustice of health care and supersedes racism.  IMHO.

Remember though, the AAPA holds LGBTQ rights as greater than the rights of African Americans.  Look how they treated the most accomplished black neurosurgeon in the world.

If he had been a Democrat, then the AAPA would have been branded racist. 

[Boatswain2PA]

On 6/6/2020 at 7:03 PM, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

while it seems silly that one should have to condemn racism, apparently it’s needed. POC obviously are still dealing with multiple issues that a civilized society should have long moved passed.

This leads to the question of "Who does NOT condemn racism?"  

Answer to that is virtually no one.  Every single one of us condemns racism. 

Where has that gotten us?  

[Boatswain2PA]

On 6/6/2020 at 8:30 PM, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

However, I now think that global outcry and public support is empowering those with the ability to make change to actually do it. We are already seeing change in policies in the military by banning confederate flags, banning of choke holds in the police department, legislation being proposed, and shining a light on those who we can tell are racist but don’t speak their quiet truths.

if nothing else, perhaps it will provide hope and a sense of being heard to those who need it.

I would rather make some REAL changes that would actually impact people (no, nobody is actually harmed by seeing a confederate flag).

Massive changes need to be made in the Qualified Immunity laws that effectively prevent government employees from being sued.  If police can be sued for negligence (with a "reasonable person" standard instead of "similarly trained" standard) then we will suddenly see a decrease in police abuse of us all.  The no-knock raids on the "wrong house" will go away, police snipers will be a little slower on the trigger before killing the innocent guy on his front porch, etc.

[Boatswain2PA]

21 hours ago, ANESMCR said:

limiting access to women’s healthcare and rights to choose is racist and always has been. 

Is killing a vastly larger percentage of black fetuses than white fetuses racist?  Seems to me that is the worst kind of racism there is.  Only thing worse than that would be forced abortion which we have not done in decades.

[Boatswain2PA]

3 hours ago, MediMike said:

The OP's statement completely dismissed minority rights/racism in favor of an anti-choice message. The post explicitly stated that it supercedes racism. 

That is certainly not how I read her post.  

[MediMike]

20 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

I would rather make some REAL changes that would actually impact people (no, nobody is actually harmed by seeing a confederate flag).

Massive changes need to be made in the Qualified Immunity laws that effectively prevent government employees from being sued.  If police can be sued for negligence (with a "reasonable person" standard instead of "similarly trained" standard) then we will suddenly see a decrease in police abuse of us all.  The no-knock raids on the "wrong house" will go away, police snipers will be a little slower on the trigger before killing the innocent guy on his front porch, etc.

Completely agree with your second paragraph, guessing it will be addressed by the court system soon (hopefully).

Don't think you have the right to say who is or is not harmed by a flag flying though. What if it was a Nazi flag being flown? (Yeah I win the Godwin's contest). Should a Jewish service member be subjected to working in that environment? In a government position? Honest question. Do you not think that seeing an emblem of hate (you can debate the underlying context of the Confederacy all you want, it represents slavery...and traitorous losers) is going to have an effect on the morale of an individual? Aside from the fact that it is a literal depiction of treason which shouldn't be represented on a base.

[Boatswain2PA]

2 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

this is just a blanket statement that racism exists, it shouldn’t, and we should be part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it. A statement I think we can all agree with

Should the AAPA put out a blanket statement saying rape exists, it shouldn't ,and we should be a part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it?

Should the AAPA put out a blanket statement saying murder exists, it shouldn't, and we should be a part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it?

Should the AAPA put out a blanket statement saying pedophilia/child molestation exists, it shouldn't, and we should be a part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it?

NOBODY is FOR such things.  We are ALL against racism, rape, murder, pedophilia.  Our constant need in today's society to declare we are against racism is virtue signaling.  Such things are so blatantly obvious that there need not BE declaratory statements against such things.

But there is a need, because it has been turned into political theater by the media and politicians.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

43 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

Remember though, the AAPA holds LGBTQ rights as greater than the rights of African Americans.  Look how they treated the most accomplished black neurosurgeon in the world.

If he had been a Democrat, then the AAPA would have been branded racist. 

This is on topic. 

 

38 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

This leads to the question of "Who does NOT condemn racism?"  

Answer to that is virtually no one.  Every single one of us condemns racism. 

Where has that gotten us?  

I’m glad you agree that no one does not condemn racism. So there is no problem with the statement.

its not a either/or issue. We can make the statement and make policy changes. The public outcry is helping enable policy changes.
 

This is what the public outcry and condemnation with protests of racism has brought us so far:

5/26 4 officers fired for murdering George Floyd
5/28 Univ of Minn cancels contract with police
5/28 3rd precinct police station neutralized by protestors
5/28 ATU Local 1005 refuses to bring police officers to protests, or transport arrested protesters
5/29 Activists commander hotel to provide shelter to homeless
5/29 Officer Chauvin who killed Floyd arrested
5/29 Louisville Mayor suspends “no-knock” warrants in response to polices 3/12
5/30 US Embassies across Africa condemn police murder of Floyd
5/30 MN AG Ellison takes over prosecution of the murdering officer
5/30 TWU Local 100 bus operators refuse to transport arrests protestors
5/31 2 abusive officers fired for pulling a couple out of car and tasing them
6/1 Minn public schools end contract with police
6/1 Confederate Monument removed - Birmingham, AL
6/1 CA prosecutors launch campaign to stop DA’s from accepting police union money
6/1 Tulsa Mayor Bynum agrees to not renew Live PD contract
6/1 Louisville police chef fired after shooting of David Mcatee at BBQ joint
6/1 Dems and reps begin push to shut down a Pentagon program that transfers military weaponry to local law enforcement departments - nationwide
6/2 Minn AFL-CIO calls for the resignation of Bob Kroll, the president of the Minn police union (Bob Kroll is a vocal white supremest)
6/2 ATU Local 85 announces refusal to transport police officers or arrest protestors
6/2 Racist Ex-Mayor Rizzo statue removed
6/2 6 abusive officers charged for violence against residents and protestors - Atlanta, GA
6/2 Confederate soldier statue removed - Alexandire, VA
6/2 Robert Lee statue removed
6/2 Civil Rights investigation of Minn Police Dept launched
6/2 Resolution to prevent law enforcement from hiring officers with history of misconduct announced by San Fran DA Boudin and Supervisor Walton
6/2 Survey indicating 64% of polled sympathetic to protestors, and 47% disapprove of police handling + 54% think burning down of precinct fully or partially justified
6/2 NJ AG announces policing reforms
6/2 Minn City Council members publicly call for disbanding the police and replace safety and outreach capacity
6/3 1 officer fired for tweets promoting violence against protestors - Denver, Co
6/3 Minn Institute of Art, First Avenue, Walker Art Center end use of MPD for events
6/3 Officer Chauvin charged and taken into custody
6/3 Officer Chauvin charges upgraded to 2nd Murder, ad remaining 3 officers also charged and taken into custody
6/3 VA Gov announces removal of Robert E Lee statue
6/3 Richmond VA Mayor Stoney announces RPD reform measures: establish "Marcus" alert for folks experiencing mental health crisis, establish independent Citizen Review Board, an ordinance to remove Confederate monuments, and implement racial equity study
6/3 County commissioners deny proposal for $23 million expansion of Fulton County jail
6/3 Minn Parks and Rec cut ties with the Minn Police Dep.
6/3 US Army tells soldiers to disobey any orders to attack peaceful protestors - nationwide
6/3 LA Announces $100-150 million cut from LAPD budget, Reinvested into communities, moratorium on gang database, sharper discipline against abusive cops, in effect immediately
6/3 Seattle changes mind and withdraws request to end federal oversight/consent decree of police department
6/4 Breonna Taylor case reopened?
6/4 Portland schools superintendent 'discontinues' presence of armed police officers in schools
6/4 MBTA (Metro Boston) board orders that buses wont transport police to protests, or protestors to police
6/4 King County Labor Federation issue ultimatum to police unions, to admit to and address racism in Seattle PD, or be removed

(and this is not nearly everything, it's only some things)”

Copy/pasted. mostly I have confirmed, but unable to confirm all.

 

so this is why I support anyone and everyone making a statement of BLM. 

32 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

I would rather make some REAL changes that would actually impact people (no, nobody is actually harmed by seeing a confederate flag).

Massive changes need to be made in the Qualified Immunity laws that effectively prevent government employees from being sued.  If police can be sued for negligence (with a "reasonable person" standard instead of "similarly trained" standard) then we will suddenly see a decrease in police abuse of us all.  The no-knock raids on the "wrong house" will go away, police snipers will be a little slower on the trigger before killing the innocent guy on his front porch, etc.

I actually agree with a lot of this, but not part of the topic at hand.

23 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

Is killing a vastly larger percentage of black fetuses than white fetuses racist?  Seems to me that is the worst kind of racism there is.  Only thing worse than that would be forced abortion which we have not done in decades.

If you would like to start a thread pursuant to policy re: racism, please do. I won’t be involved and the other mods can handle it. These posts aren’t part of the topic and the last borders on misinformation.

i could also split it for your to start another thread.

[Boatswain2PA]

2 minutes ago, MediMike said:

on't think you have the right to say who is or is not harmed by a flag flying though.

We have a different definition of "harmed."  I believe in first amendment rights.  Feel free to fly the nazi flag so we can all know you are an a$$hole.  (obviously not talking about YOU you, but someone who would fly such a flag.)  

 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

9 minutes ago, Boatswain2PA said:

Should the AAPA put out a blanket statement saying rape exists, it shouldn't ,and we should be a part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it?

Should the AAPA put out a blanket statement saying murder exists, it shouldn't, and we should be a part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it?

Should the AAPA put out a blanket statement saying pedophilia/child molestation exists, it shouldn't, and we should be a part of the solution rather than the problem by ignoring it?

NOBODY is FOR such things.  We are ALL against racism, rape, murder, pedophilia.  Our constant need in today's society to declare we are against racism is virtue signaling.  Such things are so blatantly obvious that there need not BE declaratory statements against such things.

But there is a need, because it has been turned into political theater by the media and politicians.

I think it would be GREAT if they came out with a statement that women should feel safe to come forward, that men have gotten away with rape when they shouldn’t due to privilege, and that every woman should be comfortable going to see a medical professional to speak with about a rape incident.

Pedophilia, fortunately, is not something that happens and we let people get away with because of privilege. Now do people hide it because of wealth and privilege, yes. That isn’t a systemic problem in America though.

so yes, all for statements still.

[Boatswain2PA]

4 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

so this is why I support anyone and everyone making a statement of BLM. 

That was a good list (well, mostly...removing officers from school probably not a good idea.  Remember, last year we were all talking about protecting our kids from the epidemic of school shootings), thank you.

It doesn't bother me that people/organizations make statements supporting BLM.  I'm just the guy that thinks "Duh...of course BLM".

 

6 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

These posts aren’t part of the topic and the last borders on misinformation.

What do you feel was misinformed?  I didn't look up the specific statistics, but I think we can all agree that, proportionally, there are more black abortions than white.

[Boatswain2PA]

5 minutes ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

so yes, all for statements still.

Nothing wrong with that I guess.  But if you issue lengthy statements for everything, then nobody will read anything.

[True Anomaly]

Every year, the AAPA House of Delegates has resolutions that touch on social issues- in fact, the last reference committee (some years C, some years D) are all about social issues that different delegates believe should become AAPA policy.  Because of this, the AAPA has several policies related to social issues that either get added to or revised every year.  So to have a statement like this is far from unprecedented.  Literally the only difference is making this statement broadly available right away

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

2 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said:

That was a good list (well, mostly...removing officers from school probably not a good idea.  Remember, last year we were all talking about protecting our kids from the epidemic of school shootings), thank you.

It doesn't bother me that people/organizations make statements supporting BLM.  I'm just the guy that thinks "Duh...of course BLM".

 

What do you feel was misinformed?  I didn't look up the specific statistics, but I think we can all agree that, proportionally, there are more black abortions than white.

I think it’s disingenuous to say that POC get more abortions is racist. The data is true, the extrapolation is where some may find fault. They have less access to healthcare, insurance, birth control methods, and proper sex education. Having a child as a teen, or any other point when not financially secure, will make it significantly harder to achieve upward mobility. Those children born to poor teen mothers or without an education are statistically more likely to continue with poor economic status. Thus perpetuating a cycle
 

As it is, some see limiting their access to abortion as racist. So I’m not saying it’s misinformation, but requires more clarification or other perspective.

could it be that white supremacy is an advocate of ethnic cleansing through abortion? I’m sure they would love to try, but I don’t think the evidence is there since it is an elective process and a easier means would be just to let them have birth control.

look at you...making me get off point...shame

2 hours ago, Boatswain2PA said:

Nothing wrong with that I guess.  But if you issue lengthy statements for everything, then nobody will read anything.

Well, I would suggest that most people don’t read policy period. I see ACEP come out with new policies all the time that aren’t directly EM related and I don’t give them much thought as I scroll on past. But hopefully, as we all scream the same statement, people in power take the hint.

[Boatswain2PA]

2 hours ago, mcclane said:

This is an absurd statement, a massive false equivalence, and a huge part of the problem to begin with. And your compulsion to denigrate statements against racism as virtue signalling is exactly proof of that.

its absurd to state this?

Which one are you for?  pedophilia??

[Cideous]

and into the gutter we go....

Edited June 9, 2020 by Cideous

[Boatswain2PA]

9 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

I think it’s disingenuous to say that POC get more abortions is racist. The data is true, the extrapolation is where some may find fault. They have less access to healthcare, insurance, birth control methods, and proper sex education. Having a child as a teen, or any other point when not financially secure, will make it significantly harder to achieve upward mobility. Those children born to poor teen mothers or without an education are statistically more likely to continue with poor economic status. Thus perpetuating a cycle

I agree with you it is kind of disingenuous, and that was my point.  Data doesn't make racism, although liberals/leftists/progressives use data to prove their point all the time...kinda like you just did.  All of those things you listed (teen parenting, poor education, poor economic status cycle)  are more predominate in the poor, and blacks are more likely to be poor, but it doesn't mean that teen parenting is racist.

 

9 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

As it is, some see limiting their access to abortion as racist. So I’m not saying it’s misinformation, but requires more clarification or other perspective.

Agree.  People "see" what they want to see, and in our polarized world many are blind to seeing what other people see.  And, generally, when someone doesn't see the world in the way that a liberal/progressive/leftist sees things they are castigated as inhumane/evil/etc.

 

9 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

could it be that white supremacy is an advocate of ethnic cleansing through abortion? I’m sure they would love to try, but I don’t think the evidence is there since it is an elective process and a easier means would be just to let them have birth control.

About as likely as white supremacists advocating ethnic cleansing through "limiting access to healthcare", right?

In my view there is still racism.  There are a very, very few intense racists in our country, and we ALL have some inherent bias to congregate to those who are like us.  We should all be aware of this and work to overcoming these problems.

There are huge racial disparities (like healthcare access, abortion, morbidity/mortality rates, economic, educational, etc ad nauseum).  We should look for solutions to these, but the causes for these racial disparities are not necessarily RACISM!!  If we can ever get past calling those who disagree with each other RACIST, then perhaps we can start working together to end the disparities.