NP students not allowed to rotate with PAs

[SedRate]

Just heard from a recent NP graduate that she wasn't allowed to rotate with PAs and that she was only allowed to rotate with physicians and NPs. Anyone else encounter this? Now that I think of it, my schooling set up all of my rotations with either physicians or PAs, but I'm unaware of any restriction against rotating with NPs.

[Reality Check 2]

This sounds like an institutional decision. 

 

I stopped allowing NP students with me from a certain school locally after I flunked the third one and called their director with my dismay at activities, behaviors and lack of preparation or participation. It was a very institutional thing - not a broad comment on NPs.

 

So, a student saying this means that there might be some issue with certain providers or from their school.

 

Without starting the hate match again - I would take a PA student now over an NP student 9 of 10 times based on the local systems in place and the history. That would likely change in another setting or city.

[SedRate]

That makes sense. I was thinking it might be due to the whole "dependent" provider issue.

[UGoLong]

I've had several NP students precept with me.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[loliz]

This may be school specific, but I train NP students on occasions. NP students are allowed to do rotations with PAs that have a masters degree. I have no idea where this criteria comes from. 

[Timon]

I had 2 NP students ask to rotate with me only to tell me later their programs only allow DO, MD and NP to precept their students. PA were not allowed. The schools were Azusa Pacific University and Cal Baptist.

[EMEDPA]

I've had several NP students precept with me.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

me too.

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

I've had one through a U. of Texas program but shhh, I've only got the B.S..

[ajnelson]

Its institution dependent. One of the current institutions we work with allows NPs to precept with PAs, but a PA cannot be the lead preceptor and an NP or doc needs to do their eval...

[CAAdmission]

By their own admission, NPs do not practice medicine, they practice nursing. I'm not sure why they would want to rotate with any medical practitioner PA or MD/DO.

[SedRate]

It's interesting to see such a variety of stipulations for NP clinical training.

[south]

Well, last night I posted on my experience interviewing with the vice president and head of a large health system's APP hiring function; an NP.  She explained it to me and I used my notes to pass it on, but my post was deleted this morning. 

 

Take that however you will, I suppose; maybe we aren't talking about NPs (triggered?) or promoting PAs here anymore.  Who knows?  

 

I will continue to apply to NP positions and find that I am welcomed with relief and open arms.  

[Reality Check 2]

It's interesting to see such a variety of stipulations for NP clinical training.

 

But no consistency or regulations or minimum requirements such as ARC-PA.

I find that more telling. 

[coloradopa]

All NP programs have minimum requirements they adhere to.

Really? I can pull up ARC-PA requirements which detail what PA training should entail? Can you show similar requirements for NPs? 

[Reality Check 2]

All NP programs have minimum requirements they adhere to.

No, no they don't. 

Look them up, show us the managing organization or basic standard protocols that provide a nationwide uniform educational opportunity regardless of school.

It doesn't exist.

[SedRate]

Admittedly, these "guidelines" are incredibly vague and up for interpretation by the program.

 

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/education-resources/Criteria-Evaluation-NP-2016.pdf

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/ccne-accreditation/Supplemental-Resource.pdf

(abridged version of the above: http://www.aacn.nche.edu/ccne-accreditation/Crosswalk-2013-Standards-2016-NTF-Criteria.pdf)

 

Excerpts:

 

IV-B.

Program completion rates demonstrate program

effectiveness.

Elaboration: The program demonstrates achievement of required program outcomes regarding completion. For

each degree program (baccalaureate, master’s, and DNP) and post-graduate APRN certificate program:

•

The completion rate for each of the three most recent calendar years is provided.

•

The program specifies the entry point and defines the time period to completion.

•

The program describes the formula it uses to calculate the completion rate.

•

The completion rate for the most recent calendar year is 70% or higher

. However, if the completion rate for the most

recent calendar year is less than 70%, (1) the completion rate is 70% or higher when the annual completion rates for

the three most recent calendar years are averaged or (2) the completion rate is 70% or higher when excluding stu

-

dents who have identified factors such as family obligations, relocation, financial barriers, and decisions to change

major or to transfer to another institution of higher education.

A program with a completion rate less than 70% for the most recent calendar year provides a written explana

-

tion/analysis with documentation for the variance.

This key element is not applicable to a new degree or certificate program that does not yet have individuals

who have completed the program.

•

Completion rate data by degree and/or certifi-

cate program

•

Formulas for calculating completion rate data by

degree and/or certificate program

•

Definition of the time for program completion by

degree and/or certificate program

•

Explanations with supporting evidence when the

completion rate excludes students due to factors/

reasons identified by the program

•

Explanations for completion rates below 70% by

degree and/or certificate program

•

Explanations for not applicable (N/A) by degree

and/or certificate program, i.e., the program is

new and does not yet have completers

Examples of Evidence

•

Completion data by track or mode of program

delivery, e.g., RN-BSN, BSN-DNP, or distance

learning

+

•

Collective or combined data for master’s, DNP,

and/or post-graduate APRN certificate programs+

•

Data provided by academic year (CCNE requires

data to be provided by calendar year: January 1 -

December 31)

Unacceptable Evidence

+

While programs may choose to collect or present data in this way, data must be reported to CCNE as required by the

key element; a separate completion rate must be provided for each overall degree program and/or for the overall

post-graduate APRN certificate program by calendar year: January 1 - December 31.

Please note:

The degree and/or certificate program must demonstrate a completion rate of 70% or higher. If the completion

rate is below 70%, then this is cause for a compliance concern. In calculating the completion rate, the program may

exclude students who did not complete the program due to identified factors, e.g., family obligations, relocation,

financial barriers, and decisions to change major or to transfer to another institution of higher education.

•

Data related to retention and attrition

(

IV-E

)

Common Examples of Misplaced Evidence

KEY ELEMENT

KEY ELEMENT

35

Didn’t find what you were looking for?

Try an overlapping key element(s).

Key Element(s) that overlap with

IV-B.

Degree and/or certificate programs with a completion rate less than 70% for the most recent calendar year must

provide a written explanation/analysis with documentation for the variance.

If the program has not provided or is not able to provide completion rate data by degree and/or certificate program

(as opposed to by track), then it is cause for a compliance concern.

 

 

 

III-E.

The curriculum includes planned clinical practice experi

-

ences that: enable students to integrate new knowledge

and demonstrate attainment of program outcomes; and are

evaluated by faculty.

Elaboration: To prepare students for a practice profession, each track in each degree program and post-gradu

-

ate APRN certificate program affords students the opportunity to develop professional competencies in prac

-

tice settings aligned to the educational preparation. Clinical practice experiences are provided for students in

all programs, including those with distance education offerings. Clinical practice experiences involve activities

that are designed to ensure students are competent to enter nursing practice at the level indicated by the

degree/certificate program. The design, implementation, and evaluation of clinical practice experiences are

aligned to student and program outcomes.

•

Examples of direct care clinical practice experi

-

ences that advance the knowledge and clinical

expertise of students for each degree and/or

certificate program and track

•

Examples of faculty evaluation of clinical practice

experiences for each degree and/or certificate

program and track

[SedRate]

Excerpt from the first link above:

 

Criterion III.E:

The

NP program/track has a minimum of 500

supervised direct patient care clinical hours overall. Clinical

hours are distributed to support competency development

that represents the population needs.

Elaboration:

Direct patient care clinical hours refer to hours in which

direct clinical care is provided to individuals and families in

one of the six population-focused areas of NP practice; these

hours do not include skill lab hours, physical assessment

practice sessions, or a community project if it does not include

provision of direct patient care. Clinical experiences and time

spent in each experience are varied and distributed in a way

that prepares the student to provide care to the populations

served, which may include telehealth and international

direct care experiences. For example, an FNP student receives

experiences with individuals/families across the life span, and

the adult-gerontology NP student receives experiences with

adults across the adult age spectrum from adolescent to older

adult, including the frail older adult. In addition, whereas 500

direct patient care clinical hours is regarded as a minimum, it is

expected that programs preparing NPs to provide direct care

to multiple age groups, e.g., FNP (or lifespan), will exceed this

minimum requirement. The distribution of hours is based on

the program’s population-focused area of practice.

[SedRate]

The completion rate for the most recent calendar year is 70% or higher

. However, if the completion rate for the most recent calendar year is less than 70%, (1) the completion rate is 70% or higher when the annual completion rates for the three most recent calendar years are averaged or (2) the completion rate is 70% or higher when excluding students who have identified factors such as family obligations, relocation, financial barriers, and decisions to change major or to transfer to another institution of higher education.

 

It's interesting that they can still meet the required minimum completion rate to be accredited if the average of the three years is at least 70% and that they can exclude students from that completion rate who do not to finish. I wonder if the ARC-PA has similar exceptions.

[Timon]

This thread is getting off topic now... We were discussing if a PA can precept an NP student.. this thread is now starting down the slippery slope of questioning NP training and ultimately will end up in this topic being locked as the next step from here will end up bashing our NP colleagues in training method differences. While these are all valid points, I'm asking that this be redirected to the original topic which is regarding precepting NP students.. sorry to come off as an admin, which I'm not, but just calling it as I see it because it gets embarrassing watching the evolution of these threads ending that way..

[CAAdmission]

This thread is getting off topic now... We were discussing if a PA can precept an NP student.....While these are all valid points, I'm asking that this be redirected to the original topic which is regarding precepting NP students...

 

Agreed. ARC-PA states that you can have a physician, PA, or other qualified provider - such as PhD for a mental health rotation - serve as a preceptor.

 

Regarding the original topic, a PA can serve as an NP preceptor if they wish and the NP program allows it. For my money, I would probably never serve as an NP preceptor. I would happily precept a medical assistant, a shirt stuffed with newspaper or a bag full of hammers before I would work with an NP student. I might be tempted to do it only for a tremendous amount of cash.

[CAAdmission]

IV-B.

Program completion rates demonstrate program

effectiveness.

 

This is asinine as a "standard."

 

Don't you think that if a program's completion rate (as incredibly loosely defined as it already is) were to slip down to around 70%, they might just let a few students slide to meet the standard?

[south]

Yeah, apparently explaining NP clinical training is a violation of their safe space and they become triggered.  

 

To prove there's no hard feelings, I'm offering everyone here 500 NP clinical supervision hours.  Congratulations!  Send the form to me and I will sign it.

 

South, PA-C

PO Box 8153

Phoenix, AZ 85018

 

Since no one is responsible for checking this, it is as official as any other method.  Glad to help!

[rev ronin]

Steve.bannon has been removed from the website.  I want to personally apologize for failing to do so earlier.  That was db_pavnp come back again in an ongoing effort to troll.

 

Nurse practitioners are welcome to participate respectfully in a site that is by and for PAs, much as PAs are allowed onto other sites.  Those who have no interest in promoting positive, respectful dialogue, regardless of the initials behind their name, are not welcome.  I definitely give PAs more slack than guests, but common courtesy and positive, professional discussion of contentious topics are always expected of every forum participant.

[Kaepora]

Anyways...  

 

My program does not allow PAs to be the primary preceptor, unfortunately.  My track director has lamented this, as she has PA colleagues she would like to place us with, but it's the school's policy apparently.  Has to be MD/DO or NP.  My surgical rotation specifies that it has to be MD/DO - the actual surgeon, not the first assist - even though many/all the skills I'll be learning can be taught by that person.  I actually can't even do clinicals at the facility where I work as a nurse.  

 

Now, I'm sure people have actually been precepted by the PA and had the MD signs the paperwork and conducts the review.

[DizzyJ]

The NP program at University of Toledo forbids NP students from being precepted by PAs and (per reports from 3 NP students I have interacted with) are told it is because PAs do not have their own license.  I guess I share my license on weekends, holidays, and every other summer.