NP students not allowed to rotate with PAs

[SedRate]

The NP program at University of Toledo forbids NP students from being precepted by PAs and (per reports from 3 NP students I have interacted with) are told it is because PAs do not have their own license. I guess I share my license on weekends, holidays, and every other summer.

It's interesting to hear that since both are considered "midlevel."

 

And last time I checked, I had my own license and my own malpractice insurance coverage...

[Avalon]

I have precepted one NP student.  I did ask the student to clarify in advance that a PA preceptor was permitted by her program.  I also specifically stipulated that I would need to be the one to complete her evaluation, not the CP in the practice, with whom she spent perhaps 6-8 hours in the four weeks she rotated with us.

[Timon]

I reached out to a faculty member I work with from Western University's NP program who stated: "Has to be a NP, MD, or DO per BRN regs".

 

So not sure if that is state dependent or national, but would explain why I've mostly encountered NPs not being allowed to be precepted by PAs here in California.

 

Not going to lie.. seems elitist and not really sending welcoming feeling between the two professions on their behalf since PAs can be precepted by NPs.

[south]

Interesting and I agree with that, but it doesn't matter to them, since it's entirely unmonitored and no one is responsible for it.  I could sign their form and they could claim I was an MD.  Or they could sit at home and have their neighbor sign it.  "I see you did 6000 hours with Dr. Jonas Salk last month.  Nice job!"

 

Again, I'm sure some programs hold their students' nose to the grindstone by assigning and checking with the preceptor or the paperwork in some manner. 

[Joelseff]

I precept for an NP program in my area (BTW I'm in California) and have been asked by a few other NP programs to do so. I declined because I honestly would rather precept PA students...I'll leave it at that...

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[Mainer]

I've been involved in training 2 NP students, one starting their rotations, one at the end......Very different product compared to PA / Med students. 

[Avalon]

Very timely thread.  Our office received a call Friday afternoon from a NP student.  As the CP was not in the office (she spends, on average, 6-7 hours per week there) the call was fielded to me.  The student said she needed a women's health placement to complete her training and that she had been unsuccessful over the last six months in finding a setting that would precept her.  She had been referred by a former student to our office because, at that time, we did have two NPs and one had been a preceptor for the program. 

 

The student needs 18 hours per week for seven weeks to complete her training.  I informed her that we had no NPs currently at the practice, that our physician could not possibly offer 18 hours per week as she is on site for less than half of that, and that I would agree to precept her as a PA.  She reluctantly informed me that PA preceptors are not permitted by her program.  Again, per the student, she has been unable to find a site for six months and has covered a large geographic area in her search to do so. 

[CAAdmission]

Sounds like NP education is utterly discombobulated. ARC-PA requires that a PA program cannot make a student find their own rotations. How can you possibly do adequate quality control on clinical experiences when students are finding their own?

 

In general, I don't have a problem with NPs. I do have a problem with their institutionalized air of superiority when their core education is fundamentally inferior to other medical providers. In Mississippi the nursing lobby blocked PAs for decades. PAs should refuse to participate in the clown show as preceptors.

[wildPAbrendan]

 ARC-PA requires that a PA program cannot make a student find their own rotations. How can you possibly do adequate quality control on clinical experiences when students are finding their own?

 

I have only been to one interview so far but it was at Heritage University in WA and their program is set up for didactic year on campus with 2nd year allowing the students to choose their own clinicals anywhere they want. It was specifically mentioned that many students choose to find clinical rotations in their home areas. It seemed a little suspect to me. Their program has only graduated 2 cohorts so far. Without having researched this I'm wondering how they get away with this. Maybe it was just strong "encouragement" for the students to do the leg work, and they would step in if the students were unable to find placement. I didn't push too hard because I was focused on just trying to do well in the interview.

[SedRate]

I have only been to one interview so far but it was at Heritage University in WA and their program is set up for didactic year on campus with 2nd year allowing the students to choose their own clinicals anywhere they want. It was specifically mentioned that many students choose to find clinical rotations in their home areas. It seemed a little suspect to me. Their program has only graduated 2 cohorts so far. Without having researched this I'm wondering how they get away with this. Maybe it was just strong "encouragement" for the students to do the leg work, and they would step in if the students were unable to find placement. I didn't push too hard because I was focused on just trying to do well in the interview.

They could be doing that to encourage students to develop relationships where they want to practice. Or as you said, they're having students do the leg work to develop new relationships with clinical sites, which could be due to the fact that it's a new program. I encourage you to remember this when choosing which program to attend. Established clinical sites are established for a reason and could offer a different training experience than a brand new one. If you want to practice in a certain state or location, consider rotating there to start your networking and hopefully establish professional relationships.

[SedRate]

Sounds like NP education is utterly discombobulated. ARC-PA requires that a PA program cannot make a student find their own rotations. How can you possibly do adequate quality control on clinical experiences when students are finding their own?

 

In general, I don't have a problem with NPs. I do have a problem with their institutionalized air of superiority when their core education is fundamentally inferior to other medical providers. In Mississippi the nursing lobby blocked PAs for decades. PAs should refuse to participate in the clown show as preceptors.

Logistically, it'd be difficult given the number of students and rotations that need to get filled. (Although I'm sure your question was rhetorical.) Do they have any requirements for preceptors besides NP or MD/DO? The PA program I precept for requires that providers have been practicing two years before they can precept.

[Avalon]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I have a frustrating update.  After several emails back and forth between the above mentioned prospective student in an online NP program, the program's site coordinator, and me (in which I educated the coordinator on the education and scope of practice of PA's), we had reached an agreement where I would act as the preceptor for the student.  I made it clear that my CP is in the office at most eight hours per week doing primarily procedures and has no interest in being involved with training a student.

 

Then, the state board of nursing stepped in with this comment:

 

 

You should be able to still work with a PA as long as this occurs:

 

Their supervising physician is responsible legally for everything they do. So The physician needs to be the preceptor and be willing to take responsibility for that - sign all the paperwork, actually be involved, etc. but the student can still see patients with the PA. PA name should not be anywhere, just one more person that the student is interacting with on their rotation with Dr. Whoever.

 

 

I of course politely declined.  Poor student has been looking for a women's health rotation - her last rotation to graduate - for over six months in a program that requires students to secure their own rotation sites.  I was ready, willing, and able to train her.  But the BON knows better....

[SedRate]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I have a frustrating update. After several emails back and forth between the above mentioned prospective student in an online NP program, the program's site coordinator, and me (in which I educated the coordinator on the education and scope of practice of PA's), we had reached an agreement where I would act as the preceptor for the student. I made it clear that my CP is in the office at most eight hours per week doing primarily procedures and has no interest in being involved with training a student.

 

Then, the state board of nursing stepped in with this comment:

 

 

You should be able to still work with a PA as long as this occurs:

 

Their supervising physician is responsible legally for everything they do. So The physician needs to be the preceptor and be willing to take responsibility for that - sign all the paperwork, actually be involved, etc. but the student can still see patients with the PA. PA name should not be anywhere, just one more person that the student is interacting with on their rotation with Dr. Whoever.

 

 

I of course politely declined. Poor student has been looking for a women's health rotation - her last rotation to graduate - for over six months in a program that requires students to secure their own rotation sites. I was ready, willing, and able to train her. But the BON knows better....

That's very frustrating.

[CAAdmission]

Screw the NP profession. The PA profession is having a hard enough time finding preceptors without assisting an inferior training program.

[bike mike]

Seems ridiculous that in some places PA's cant precept an NP student. Our critical care cardiology team of PA's and NP's was asked to precept an MD student for one of his rotations.....but of course our team kicks ass : ) 

[KMD16]

Don't understand why this worth writing about. We've got to stop promoting NP. They don't talk about us as much we talk about them. This folks don't like us.

 

I won't waste my time to precept an NP student. No matter how hard you try, they would not accept the fact that you're just trying to reach out professionally.

 

This folks are not our friends and we've got to stop pretending. My heart bleeds for our profession seeing the trends of things in the last 10 to 15 years.

 

Peace.

[True Anomaly]

Screw the NP profession. The PA profession is having a hard enough time finding preceptors without assisting an inferior training program.

 

Completely agree.  And as they will always see us as inferior to them, there's no benefit to helping training them- especially at the expense of potential PA students having quality rotation spots with PA preceptors

[sas5814]

yes and no...

If they can't rotate with a PA who cares? Not me. I have other ways to spend my time.

However we need to get past this us vs them mentality at least at the political and policy level. Physicians are primarily responsible for slowing the pace of the profession at the policy level. They are not our friends politically. meanwhile the NPs have created a political machine that is running circles around us. It is time to align with them and develop some synergy politically. As long as we are tied to the physicians every time they try to block something they will likely succeed. After all we are their assistants? Don't they know what is best for us? Think like a politician who doesn't know a PA physician assistant for a PA public address system. I don't like it and spent many years in the "they suck" camp but practicality has forced me to change my ways.