First PA-C to DO bridge program announced

[marilynpac]

I do too, and it's been a long time coming....but at least it's coming.

[primadonna22274]

Thanks for the well wishes folks. I already did this in 2008 so I had everything ready to go...just had to spend 6 hr navigating the miserable AACOMAS app and pay $155 to submit (I only submitted to LECOM). I figure, what do I have to lose except for 6 hr and $155?

[SocialMedicine]

I do not think PA should be viewed as a stepping stone to MD .... That is insulting to think of. I am not on a stepping stone and would be mortified if my patients felt that way. It would jeapordize my ability to provide quality patient care. I think it is a fine option for some. Especially those in a specialty where they have found much limitation as a PA, or desire some more indepth classroom/residency work. However, if this becomes more prevalent it could erode the impression people are building of PA's. If this birdge program becomes more and more common I think it will signal a failure in our PA admissions committees to select individuals committed to becoming a competent/professional PA. And not the MD applicant who failed. Those individuals who expressed interest in attending I am sure will do great, and I think it is nice the option exists. HOWEVER, we would not be wise to make the PA a stepping stone to doctor and NP the answer to doctor shortages.

[primadonna22274]

I think the APAP proposal at hand is just unattractive enough to most that it will select out the folks who might be looking for a "back door". If anything it would be a longer and more expensive route for a new grad or current PA student than if that student had just gone to med school in the first place. OTOH, it does offer an option for someone who got into medicine, found she loved it, and cannot imagine doing anything else with her life...but wants to do more than she has done as a PA. I think in most cases the only folks who will realistically apply to this program are those who would probably apply anyway to traditional four-year programs--so it's just taking advantage of a subset of proven clinicians who can and will do more. I don't see this as a stepping stone at all...unless you consider there have been 10 highly productive years along my way.

[MCHAD]

I do not think PA should be viewed as a stepping stone to MD .... That is insulting to think of. I am not on a stepping stone and would be mortified if my patients felt that way. It would jeapordize my ability to provide quality patient care. I think it is a fine option for some. Especially those in a specialty where they have found much limitation as a PA, or desire some more indepth classroom/residency work. However, if this becomes more prevalent it could erode the impression people are building of PA's. If this birdge program becomes more and more common I think it will signal a failure in our PA admissions committees to select individuals committed to becoming a competent/professional PA. And not the MD applicant who failed. Those individuals who expressed interest in attending I am sure will do great, and I think it is nice the option exists. HOWEVER, we would not be wise to make the PA a stepping stone to doctor and NP the answer to doctor shortages.

 

Glad I'm not the only person this didn't sit well with.

[EMEDPA]

even without this program pa/np could be considered a stepping stone for anyone who continues in their education. all this does is give us some credit for work already done.

[Zeus]

Glad I'm not the only person this didn't sit well with.

 

I agree with you both to a certain degree. I don't want PAs to come into the profession, just cause they didn't get into med school and this is the next option. We need new blood passionate about providing team based care in this new world of medicine.

 

I also thing there is room for the bridge program for long standing PAs with a lot of experience who are looking to move on to become a M.D. With the trend in PA education, younger applicants with undergrad degrees, i think this will be a more viable once they have 5+ years of experience in medicine and very lucrative for educational institutions looking for new educational revenue. We as a profession will have to take a good look at the requirements to get into these programs and give "strong" con opinions to those who offer a quick transion for new grad PAs, without them doing some time in the PA profession. Due your time making the PA profession great then if you have the desire to move onto the next level then you will be a great PA advocate as a M.D. or D.O

[rev ronin]

I've known Coast Guardsmen who enlisted, were promoted to Chief Petty Officer, selected for Warrant Officer, and eventually selected for a warrant-to-lieutenant promotion. That is, with well over 15 years in the service, these competent gentlemen were the same rank as people roughly 3-8 years out of the Coast Guard Academy. I know of no one who thinks of Warrant officer as a stepping stone to O-3E, because the selection process is so competitive that it's easier for an enlisted servicemember to get out after a few years of service, go to college, and apply for a commission through officer candidate school. The officers who did achieve such promotions were generally at least as highly regarded as their academy-trained peers: while the warrant-to-lieutenant officers generally had later and less academic training, they had an entire career's worth of successful evaluations up through the ranks, and commensurate tribal knowledge accompanying that career.

 

In much the same way, I don't see PA-C -> Physician ever taking away either from the traditional path to physicianhood or from the PA profession: the few who do make the change are going to be well-respected for their previous experience, but the path is going to remain sufficiently selective and difficult that it won't "cheapen" anything, since, as Contrarian points out, it's far from an easier path.

[ventana]

Although this is not for me I am very excited it is occuring.

 

I only hopefully have 20 years of work left and then I hanging up the coat..... to spend 10 years of that in school and 80+ hour weeks of residency and loose about 1m dollars is just not for me. BUT I am very excited and thankful that this step is being taken!

[DJ Bunnell MSHS PA-C]

I think that it is great that PAs have this option should they choose it. I appreciate Dr. Kauffman coming on the forum to help explain the program. Also, as someone who has close ties to Erie, I appreciate what LECOM has done over the years to put Erie on the map.

 

I agree that there will not be a huge rush from the PA community into this program. However, I do believe that the individuals who choose it will be excellent physicians and great advocates for PAs. The rest of us will continue to work as excellent clinicians who have chosen to be PAs.

 

Good luck to those who choose it. You are representing more than yourselves. You are representing what PAs can do. We all have a vested interest in your success. To those who do not choose it, I challenge you to continue to be the excellent patient-focused clinicians that you are.

[acozadd]

To follow up on an earlier post of mine, after sitting through my PA programs orientation I found out that we literally take about 1/5 of our courses alongside the medical and podiatry students, including pharmacology, physical diagnosis/assessment, some of the clinical courses, etc. To repeat those because I took them "as a PA student and not a DO/MD student" would be ridiculous.

 

It's interesting to note that the PA students are notorious for having the highest average in these courses as well ;)

[primadonna22274]

That's interesting for you but it doesn't apply to all programs. I went to a community-based program--no med school--so we did NOT take courses with med students. Also, I teach at a program that IS affiliated with a major medical school, and our students (sadly) don't take any courses together either...so you can't generalize.

 

To follow up on an earlier post of mine, after sitting through my PA programs orientation I found out that we literally take about 1/5 of our courses alongside the medical and podiatry students, including pharmacology, physical diagnosis/assessment, some of the clinical courses, etc. To repeat those because I took them "as a PA student and not a DO/MD student" would be ridiculous.

 

It's interesting to note that the PA students are notorious for having the highest average in these courses as well ;)

[Mark Kauffman]

Hi

Sorry for the delay in getitng back with you. Clinical experience will rank higher in the application process but anyone who is certified can apply and qualify as you will at least have had 1 year of clinical clerkships as required through ARC-PA.

Thanks

[Mark Kauffman]

One option is competency evaluations. Just like a pharmacist who returns to medical school, if they take a competency exam and pass it, they have completed the requirements for that course. In this case, PAs are the experts in history and physical examination. I think you would be hard pressed to find a PA who couldn't demonstrate competency and test out of the course.

[Mark Kauffman]

What you are describing is competency based education and is a great educational path. If the student could demonstrate mastery of the didactice work within one year, you could move them onto clinical earlier. The difficulty lies in accreditation. Any change in a program that is greater than a 10% deviation from the standard curriculum requires preapproval from the accrediting body, quite a challange. So a program would need to be developed that allowed progression based on the demonstration of competency. Truely the right way to do it, but very difficulty to design and receive approval.

[Mark Kauffman]

I'm still trying to figure out WHY people keep writing about the mythical 25% discount.

There is NO 25% discount as you paid that 25% plus more to complete your PA program.

 

Think about it...

$100k for the traditional DO program.

$75k for this PA to DO experiment

You HAVE to be a PA to get in so you HAVE to include the $60-$80k it took to become a PA into this equation. So now its costing MORE to do this than if you would have gone straight to DO school... :heheh:

 

If the MCAT is required... by extention all the same pre-reqs are still required in order to score decently on this test. This is not really a "bridge"... it is a modified admission process to a fairly standard 3 yr DO program.

 

 

Good luck Primadonna...!!!

 

Contrarian

 

Everyone who gets into medical school had to do undergraduate, so if you did a 4 year undergrad and then 2 years PA masters you spent the extra two years. If you planned to go to med school in the first place, you're right, you did it the long way around. But there are those who didn't discover until later that they want to.

[Contrarian]

Thanks Dr. Kauffman...

Hopefully this is but the start of great options for experienced PA-Cs.

[Ridiculopathy]

thanks dr kaufmann for your hard work! =) can you please work on getting rid of the mcat requirement....>=P

[LobotomyPlzThx]

This is underwhelming. MS1 and 2 in entirety. So how is this bridging previous knowledge with what's lacking? To me, it seems like regular Med school without the elective year, which is where some DO programs are heading anyway. :-/

 

At least it's a start. If this snowballs, MD programs might even be shorter because they don't have to include the OMM techniques.

 

Edit: Also, this is not a 25% reduction in tuition. You already paid for 2 years of PA school. Paying for 3 more years = 5 years. It's a 25% increase over simply going to med school to begin with. Is it really worth spending $100 just for the new title? How many of you actually plan on using OMM?

[LobotomyPlzThx]

HUSKY- the issue is that to be accredited as a us medschool grad you must do a min of 3 yrs of school.

we both know that 2 yrs would be fine with 1 didactic yr and 1 clinical yr but that wouldn't result in the ability to take usmle step 1-3.

a format with no mcat, 1 yr didactic and 2 yrs clinical would meet the 3 yr requirement and probably appeal to a broader audience of pa's.

 

You already have 2 years. If you need ANOTHER 3 years, how is that a bridge?

[physasst]

You already have 2 years. If you need ANOTHER 3 years, how is that a bridge?

 

Sorry, but you do NOT have 2 years of Medical School. You have 2 years of PA school. While there a number of similarities, it is NOT exactly the same, and you cannot spin it as such. To do so, does 2 things. It discredits physician education. And, perhaps more importantly, it discredits the PA profession as a separate and viable profession on it's own...

[Mark Kauffman]

Yes. I am working on that one. It's the right goal to have and a lot of literature out there supports it.

[rxtechhk]

not sure if this was discussed in this thread already but there are MD programs that donot require MCATS such as some of the combined BS/MD programs which are accelerated...the PA to DO program could have a similar setup

[Contrarian]

I could live with the current iteration AND a mandatory Primary Care Residency if the MCAT disappeared...

 

Before folks start whining about the mandatory primary care residency... keep in mind that a physician CAN do more than one residency and that some specialties already require more than one residency.

 

Contrarian

[acozadd]

Sorry, but you do NOT have 2 years of Medical School. You have 2 years of PA school. While there a number of similarities, it is NOT exactly the same, and you cannot spin it as such. To do so, does 2 things. It discredits physician education. And, perhaps more importantly, it discredits the PA profession as a separate and viable profession on it's own...

 

While I may not sit in the same room as the physicians for ALL of my classes (I do take a decent portion alongside them at my program, including pharm, PD, some clinical blocks, etc.) even my accelerated PA courses cover the same objectives. All lectures come with a list of objectives- aka things you need to know from the material. The objectives are LITERALLY the same for the med students and PA students for anatomy, physiology, patho, etc. The lectures even come from the same professors. (this comes in handy when we can look up old study guides that the docs used for exams that cover the same objectives). My program may not be typical, but so far I'm seeing few differences between what the med students and PA students are excepted to know-- except we got biochem in a few lectures as opposed to it's own class, etc. To have to repeat 75%+ of the work, most of which was similar/exactly what the docs learned, isn't worth it. Been there, done that (or should I say "doing" that).