First PA-C to DO bridge program announced

[dxu]

Maybe I am playing devil's advocate here but I think taking certain courses in the didactic portion of MS1 and MS2 are more or less to prepare students for the board exams. I am speaking of the biochemistry, physiology, histology, etc courses. While I am not a PA, merely a hopeful Pre-PA, I have come to understand that many of the medical school physiology or biochemistry are more in depth that their PA school counterparts. If that is the case, than there is good reason for needing MS1 and MS2. If the needed classes like the aforementioned ones plus the few extra could be slid into MS1 so as to only require one didactic year and then one clinical year, it would make more sense to pursue this path.

 

Just my take.

 

DU

[EMEDPA]

I think a 3 yr bridge could also be done with 18 mo of each(didactic and clinical) but that is harder to fit into an established program.

we really do need all of ms 1 and probably half of ms2 so that works for the didactics. 18 mo of clinicals would allow for all the core rotations plus some electives and sub-I's and even a little interview time.

I agree with contrarian. this would be a much sweeter deal without the mcat. that is a deal breaker for me at this point as it would require serious study time and a kaplan course to do well enough to get a 22. without the mcat I would probably apply for the first class. I may still apply for the 2nd or 3rd class.

[dxu]

In the same vein as your previous post EMEDPA, would studying for the MCAT alone using Kaplan, TPR, or Examkrackers be sufficient for scoring a 22 or better on the MCAT or would classes need to be competed at the college level? I know that many PAs have previously taken most if not all of the pre-reqs required for medical school but suppose one had not. Would not taking O-Chem II or Physics II really be detrimental to the overall MCAT testing process? I would think one could learn what was needed to score at least a 22 by self-directed learning via study materials since the MCAT is not really about regurgitating information but applying it and critical thinking. Of course, taking or retaking the pre-reqs couldn't hurt I'd think.

[acozadd]

In the same vein as your previous post EMEDPA, would studying for the MCAT alone using Kaplan, TPR, or Examkrackers be sufficient for scoring a 22 or better on the MCAT or would classes need to be competed at the college level? I know that many PAs have previously taken most if not all of the pre-reqs required for medical school but suppose one had not. Would not taking O-Chem II or Physics II really be detrimental to the overall MCAT testing process? I would think one could learn what was needed to score at least a 22 by self-directed learning via study materials since the MCAT is not really about regurgitating information but applying it and critical thinking. Of course, taking or retaking the pre-reqs couldn't hurt I'd think.

 

I have had friends score mid 30s on the mcat before even taking biochem, organic chem, etc. A kaplan book should be easily sufficient to score a 22.

[EMEDPA]

I have had friends score mid 30s on the mcat before even taking biochem, organic chem, etc. A kaplan book should be easily sufficient to score a 22.

 

Since the avg score of folks entering med school is a 28 after taking all the required courses your friends must all be brilliant.

I'm 20 yrs + away from some of this coursework and 8 yrs away from physics/genetics/stats so I think it is fair to say I would need to do some review before taking the mcat.....interesting aside....some of the best docs I know got into medschool with sub 20 mcats then aced their boards.......it's a worthless indicator of future success...kind of like the sat or gre....know what a prominent rhodes scholar who ran for president( and lost) a few yrs ago got on his sat's...sub 1000.

[Firemedic13]

..interesting aside....some of the best docs I know got into medschool with sub 20 mcats then aced their boards.......it's a worthless indicator of future success...kind of like the sat or gre....know what a prominent rhodes scholar who ran for president( and lost) a few yrs ago got on his sat's...sub 1000.

 

I don't normally disagree with you... but my understanding is that there is a weak, but significant, correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE scores. So while exceptions like the ones you describe are certainly possible, they are technically the exception.

[acozadd]

Since the avg score of folks entering med school is a 28 after taking all the required courses your friends must all be brilliant.

I'm 20 yrs + away from some of this coursework and 8 yrs away from physics/genetics/stats so I think it is fair to say I would need to do some review before taking the mcat.....interesting aside....some of the best docs I know got into medschool with sub 20 mcats then aced their boards.......it's a worthless indicator of future success...kind of like the sat or gre....know what a prominent rhodes scholar who ran for president( and lost) a few yrs ago got on his sat's...sub 1000.

 

The one I am thinking of in particular was a close friend of mine who is a smart guy, but definitely not brilliant. He is one of my closest friends and has still yet to beat me on a single exam ;) (We were somewhat competitive in undergrad, and we usually placed bets on exams). To call him brilliant would be to call me brilliant, and I'm far from that.

[acozadd]

I don't normally disagree with you... but my understanding is that there is a weak, but significant, correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE scores. So while exceptions like the ones you describe are certainly possible, they are technically the exception.

 

To go along those lines, from the scores of people that I know personally-- those that got in the low 20s were who I would consider "idiots" for lack of a better term, while the ones that could actually grasp material and had some common sense all scored 30+. Small sample size, but the correlation held true.

[EMEDPA]

To go along those lines, from the scores of people that I know personally-- those that got in the low 20s were who I would consider "idiots" for lack of a better term, while the ones that could actually grasp material and had some common sense all scored 30+. Small sample size, but the correlation held true.

 

so based on your assumption all DO's are idiots due to their mcat scores being lower than md's overall?

maybe they look past grades and test scores at more important factors....like life experience and compassion....and a real desire to do public service that goes beyond the application essay and interview....

you may have not figured this out yet but on the whole DO's are just better human beings than MD's....they are real people who can talk to pts AND they are clinically excellent. I have had several sp's and chiefs who have been DO's and they were much better teachers and mentors than their more uptight/anal md colleagues.

granted their are exceptions both ways but you will find very few folks who applied only DO who are unpleasant human beings....

[EMEDPA]

I don't normally disagree with you... but my understanding is that there is a weak, but significant, correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE scores. So while exceptions like the ones you describe are certainly possible, they are technically the exception.

let me rephrase....I know their is a weak correlation between mcat and specifically step 1 scores but a high mcat is not a great predicator that someone will be a good physician once they are in practice...in fact some of the WORST docs I know had near perfect mcats and step 1 scores but couldn't deal with people at all...these guys almost failed out of residency every yr but were saved by test scores alone....and they continue to get many more patient complaints than their colleagues because they are rude, insensitive, lack empathy, etc and don't even know it....

[primadonna22274]

YES. O-chem makes up a large portion of the Biological Sciences portion, along with a fair bit of molecular, cell bio & genetics. Gen Bio I&II is not nearly enough preparation to get a decent score.

Physics and Gen Chem make up the Physical Sciences score. This was my worst section--twice--because I had not taken physics and tried to "self-study". IMO I could have done much better on PS if I had waited until after taking physics to test.

While LECOM has stated they may waive certain requirements for otherwise qualified PAs interested in matriculating to the DO program, I very much doubt they would waive several requirements. Just too risky. One or two classes might be reasonable; more than that I would think not.

And, just so you know, the MCAT is to a point a critical thinking/reasoning test, but it requires a heckuva lot of recall. If you haven't learned the material at some point, you'll be hopeless on the MCAT. Definitely my least favorite test ever. I think I would have scored MUCH better if I had tested right after undergrad, but it was a bit brutal trying to remember all that crap 14 years later. I did better than a 22 but not a whole lot better :wink:

 

In the same vein as your previous post EMEDPA, would studying for the MCAT alone using Kaplan, TPR, or Examkrackers be sufficient for scoring a 22 or better on the MCAT or would classes need to be competed at the college level? I know that many PAs have previously taken most if not all of the pre-reqs required for medical school but suppose one had not. Would not taking O-Chem II or Physics II really be detrimental to the overall MCAT testing process? I would think one could learn what was needed to score at least a 22 by self-directed learning via study materials since the MCAT is not really about regurgitating information but applying it and critical thinking. Of course, taking or retaking the pre-reqs couldn't hurt I'd think.

[Gmurphy]

Hey EMEDPA- I like your time chart, except yours leaves out "12 yrs in computer field" after bs/ba - then I ended up being 40+ and having racked up $200k in debt just to be a PA. Now I toy with the idea that if I went to med school and specialized in something high paying (this goes against all of the MPH coursework I ever took and my political views on healthcare, but...) I could do a quick burst of Neurosurg or the like for 700gr/yr and then finally do what I want in the ED on the backend. Just toying with it. Would be a hard sell to the wife and kids, I bet!

[Gmurphy]

primadonna- I took the MCATs 15 yrs after my lofty BA in History degree - never took any Chem or Bio classes after high school- and did one of the study books and got a 26R. It's not the best score but if you can write well, and have good reading comprehension, you can do fine... if you think about the 22, you just need to get a 10 on the verbal and a 6 on the physics (21st percentile) and 6 in the bio science (18th percentile) to get the minimum. I took the college classes post bac, they certainly would have helped and I know I would rock the test if I was to take it now, but 22 is totally doable, just rule out the stuff you know is wrong and remember the basics (alcohols end in OH, etc). Looking back it was dumb to take the MCATs before the postbac courses, but it goes to show you can do it.

[Gmurphy]

I used to think this when I was a student too, until I got into the field. My school also had us share some of the same DO classes/professors. You need to lose this perception because they go into much greater depth on especially microbiology and pathophys than we do as PAs, especially cell chemistry. I learn from my MD/DO colleagues every day, and feel privileged to work alongside them.

[acozadd]

so based on your assumption all DO's are idiots due to their mcat scores being lower than md's overall?

maybe they look past grades and test scores at more important factors....like life experience and compassion....and a real desire to do public service that goes beyond the application essay and interview....

you may have not figured this out yet but on the whole DO's are just better human beings than MD's....they are real people who can talk to pts AND they are clinically excellent. I have had several sp's and chiefs who have been DO's and they were much better teachers and mentors than their more uptight/anal md colleagues.

granted their are exceptions both ways but you will find very few folks who applied only DO who are unpleasant human beings....

 

Those that scored in the very low 20s were the students that couldn't do a problem that required thought and the integration of more than 1 idea. They couldn't learn info quickly or put concepts together (both highly desirable for med school). They were the students that dropped out of bio majors for psych/others because their grades in bio were too low and they wanted to keep their chances of med school alive. They were basically the type of people that I wouldn't let treat my pet, let alone a family member. Of course, there were only a handful of these people and I'm sure there are quite a few very intelligent people that will make great practitioners that somehow slipped into this group.

 

FWIW my PA program is associated with a DO school and I'm surrounded by them on a daily basis (in class, as TAs in anatomy lab, etc).

[Firemedic13]

let me rephrase....I know their is a weak correlation between mcat and specifically step 1 scores but a high mcat is not a great predicator that someone will be a good physician once they are in practice...in fact some of the WORST docs I know had near perfect mcats and step 1 scores but couldn't deal with people at all...these guys almost failed out of residency every yr but were saved by test scores alone....and they continue to get many more patient complaints than their colleagues because they are rude, insensitive, lack empathy, etc and don't even know it....

 

Ah... I get what you are saying now, and agree with you totally. Too many times have I met an MD with so many brains and so little personality it physically hurts me to be in the room with them.

[Firemedic13]

Those that scored in the very low 20s were the students that couldn't do a problem that required thought and the integration of more than 1 idea. They couldn't learn info quickly or put concepts together (both highly desirable for med school). They were the students that dropped out of bio majors for psych/others because their grades in bio were too low and they wanted to keep their chances of med school alive. They were basically the type of people that I wouldn't let treat my pet, let alone a family member. Of course, there were only a handful of these people and I'm sure there are quite a few very intelligent people that will make great practitioners that somehow slipped into this group.

 

You are being awfully harsh there dude. I have a friend who got a 20 on her MCAT who had a 4.0 throughout school (Biochemistry, BTW). She just tests poorly... and before you pull out anything about useless under pressure, she was a medic for 8 years prior to medical school, and I saw her work (I was even her partner for a while). She is beautiful under pressure, one of the best medics I ever met, and I would happily let her treat my family, and myself. I look forward to it, in fact, if I remain in NM and she goes into primary care like she thinks she might.

 

Look, you are right that, as a trend, people with low MCAT scores make slightly less good physicians on a knowledge level.... But in other countries, like Australia, England, France, Denmark, etc, getting into medical school doesn't require knowledge of chemistry, biology, physics, or any other science. You, in fact, apply straight out of high school after taking a test like the SATs that we know for a fact is totally not predictive of success... and those countries all have brilliant physicians. I think a blanket statement like the one you are making is just a little unfair, is all. Also, as you can see above, I agree with EMEDPA that there are other things that go into being a physician which the MCAT definitely doesn't cover.

[acozadd]

You are being awfully harsh there dude. I have a friend who got a 20 on her MCAT who had a 4.0 throughout school (Biochemistry, BTW). She just tests poorly... and before you pull out anything about useless under pressure, she was a medic for 8 years prior to medical school, and I saw her work (I was even her partner for a while). She is beautiful under pressure, one of the best medics I ever met, and I would happily let her treat my family, and myself. I look forward to it, in fact, if I remain in NM and she goes into primary care like she thinks she might.

 

Look, you are right that, as a trend, people with low MCAT scores make slightly less good physicians on a knowledge level.... But in other countries, like Australia, England, France, Denmark, etc, getting into medical school doesn't require knowledge of chemistry, biology, physics, or any other science. You, in fact, apply straight out of high school after taking a test like the SATs that we know for a fact is totally not predictive of success... and those countries all have brilliant physicians. I think a blanket statement like the one you are making is just a little unfair, is all. Also, as you can see above, I agree with EMEDPA that there are other things that go into being a physician which the MCAT definitely doesn't cover.

 

I mentioned a few times that I was basing it purely on the few individuals that I knew that scored in that range, aka a very small sample size. They could be the exception, but from my experience (as limited as it may be) the more capable students scored higher (much higher than a 22). I'm not a huge fan of standardized tests in general, so I'd have no problem overlooking the MCAT/GRE for other statistics. The students I am referring to also lacked any experience, or the good grades that your friend had.

 

Just a side note, but I don't know of many 4.0 students that "test poorly." To get a 4.0 you obviously had to take many tests, of which you averaged an A.

 

Overall, I'm just saying that a 22 on the MCAT should not be a difficult score to achieve with some preparation and a decent head on your shoulders.

[Firemedic13]

Just a side note, but I don't know of many 4.0 students that "test poorly." To get a 4.0 you obviously had to take many tests, of which you averaged an A.

 

Yeah, I'll admit I was shocked when she told me her score (my wife tells me it may have been a 21, actually, but... same diff really) but it is true... and she had to spend a year in a special masters to get into med school because, I think, they had trouble believing it too.

[acozadd]

Yeah, I'll admit I was shocked when she told me her score (my wife tells me it may have been a 21, actually, but... same diff really) but it is true... and she had to spend a year in a special masters to get into med school because, I think, they had trouble believing it too.

 

Overall I view the MCAT as an "equilizer" of sorts... Taking pre-reqs at different schools is a completely different experience. Say you go to a top ivy league school and average low B's in physics, chem, bio, etc. While another person goes to a local college where they set the curve on every exam and walk away with a 4.0. In this situation, Person A has a 3.0 while person B has a 4.0... so which one has a grater academic aptitude? What happens if Person A scores a 37 on their MCATS and person B scores a 20... TEchnically they took the same courses, and person A did worse (GPA wise) than person B, but when tested in a standardized fashion, they did much better.

 

GPA is one measure of how well you mastered the material, but it is not standardized between schools so there is somewhat of a need to level the playing field with a standardized test.

[kayakr]

I don't normally disagree with you... but my understanding is that there is a weak, but significant, correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE scores. So while exceptions like the ones you describe are certainly possible, they are technically the exception.

 

Agreed. While not an expert by any means, I did take the MCAT so I have a little background and did a little previous research a few years ago. Yes - they have shown a correlation, which is one of the justifications for requiring it for med school. They say one of the reasons in requiring it is to weed out those people who simply for one reason or another cannot take that kind of test. In theory, you could be brilliant - but just don't do well on that kind of test. If this is the case, again you could be brilliant in med school, but not get licensed because you can't pass the USMLE or COMLEX (they are formatted like the MCAT apparently...or should we say the MCAT is formatted like them - which ever way you look at it (chicken v egg...and I'm not sure of the order).

 

I found that you very much needed to learn the tricks of the test in addition to just knowing the information.

[primadonna22274]

Just got a congratulatory email--I'm in! Excited and perhaps a little overwhelmed. Definitely going. Will keep you all informed. :)

[ajnelson]

Just got a congratulatory email--I'm in! Excited and perhaps a little overwhelmed. Definitely going. Will keep you all informed. :)

 

CONGRATS!!! I look forward to hearing all of your stories. And having another PA friendly doc out there :)

Lots of Luck, although I'm sure you don't need it!

[haeriphos]

Just got a congratulatory email--I'm in! Excited and perhaps a little overwhelmed. Definitely going. Will keep you all informed. :)

 

Congrats! I'm looking forward to hearing how the program compares in scope and difficulty to a PA program.

[istat2]

Just got a congratulatory email--I'm in! Excited and perhaps a little overwhelmed. Definitely going. Will keep you all informed. :)

 

Go get them girl. We all proud of you.