First PA-C to DO bridge program announced

[Hemegroup]

Where is the money for 3 years of schooling supposed to come from, assuming that the PA has maxed their loan limit for graduate school? I would suppose that the only answer to that is private funding, although I admittedly don't know if there are any loans available for post-grad education ... but would it even be considered as such?

 

Not asking for myself, mind you, I've always wanted to be a PA. But I know if someone in my financial shoes wanted to do it, they'd be just as stumped.

[True Anomaly]

Thank you, Primadonna and Dr. Kauffman, for coming on here and addressing a lot of our questions head-on. With such a bold first step made with a program like this, it really does help to be transparent and proactive in minimizing the erroneous opinions that are no doubt circulating out there once people hear something like, "THEY'RE GONNA LET PA'S BE DOCTORS".

[primadonna22274]

If you were truly maxed out then it would be a tough go. However, loan limits are much higher for MD/DO than for other graduate school (not sure if you knew that). Fortunately I am far from maxed out although I still don't like the idea of more debt. I shudder to think of currently graduating students who are coming out with $150k student loan debt on a PA salary. They will be almost certainly forced into specialty areas just to afford their loan payments. :(

 

Where is the money for 3 years of schooling supposed to come from, assuming that the PA has maxed their loan limit for graduate school? I would suppose that the only answer to that is private funding, although I admittedly don't know if there are any loans available for post-grad education ... but would it even be considered as such?

 

Not asking for myself, mind you, I've always wanted to be a PA. But I know if someone in my financial shoes wanted to do it, they'd be just as stumped.

[peeadude]

this sounds good, even though i would never do it

[underserved]

The PA to DO bridge can't be bad for the PA profession. Now PA-C have two ways to become a Physician: via the bridge program or the traditional method. But due to the fierce competition from so many qualified PA-C, it's going to be more realistic to go the traditional route if a PA-C wants to become a D.O.

[Zeus]

If you were truly maxed out then it would be a tough go. However, loan limits are much higher for MD/DO than for other graduate school (not sure if you knew that). Fortunately I am far from maxed out although I still don't like the idea of more debt. I shudder to think of currently graduating students who are coming out with $150k student loan debt on a PA salary. They will be almost certainly forced into specialty areas just to afford their loan payments. :(

 

I agree with you primadonna tuition is forcing PAs into specialties, therefore it think this is why a bridge program is so hard to sell as a solution to our primary care shortage. I am not saying that this is what the PD is claiming to do, but i would think that if the concept of a bridge program is really going to catch on and be successful on a large scale, it would have to be presented as a way for the medical community to fill the gaps which are already a parent in primary care.

[haeriphos]

I'm glad that there's at least an option out there now. I'll graduate PA school at 33 and could see myself possibly considering it after ten years of practice or so. Unfortunately that puts me at 49 before I can practice independently, but it might be a nice way to spend my last ten years of work and open up some higher paying locum tenens jobs in retirement. I'd likely only pursue it if more programs opened up similar programs though.

[Gordon, PA-C]

I agree with you primadonna tuition is forcing PAs into specialties, therefore it think this is why a bridge program is so hard to sell as a solution to our primary care shortage. I am not saying that this is what the PD is claiming to do, but i would think that if the concept of a bridge program is really going to catch on and be successful on a large scale, it would have to be presented as a way for the medical community to fill the gaps which are already a parent in primary care.

 

The ONLY way to get more people into primary care is to pay specialists less. Everything else is irrelevant. As long as plastic surgeons and radiologists make 5 times what primary care pays, then PAs and MDs are going to move away from primary care. When you start paying radiologists only 1.5 or 2X what a primary care doc makes, then you'll see some flow back in the other direction.

[acozadd]

"The ONLY way to get more people into primary care is to pay specialists less. Everything else is irrelevant. As long as plastic surgeons and radiologists make 5 times what primary care pays, then PAs and MDs are going to move away from primary care. When you start paying radiologists only 1.5 or 2X what a primary care doc makes, then you'll see some flow back in the other direction."

 

Or pay primary care more. Or offer partial tuition reimbursement for entering primary care. Or a number of other options. Cutting salaries of specialties could have some detrimental effects for both MDs and PAs.

[andersenpa]

With finite resources it probably needs to be a bit of both- more for cognitive services, less for procedural.

[marilynpac]

Radiologist many anyway can do alot of their work out of their own home---online...boy, that beats all.

[physasst]

Well, this is only part of a pretty comprehensive overhaul of the health education system in the future. I've been a part of several symposia, and on several national forums that pertained to this. This is a brave new step. So is the new PA/PhD program. We have several more meetings coming up this fall with regards to health education reform, and there is a lot of discussion of shortening medical school overall. Making it more competency based (sound familiar? yours truly, along with Bill Fenn were both trying to keep a straight face when this came up). There is a lot of discussion of breaking down the silos, and educating nurses, PA's, PT's, and MD's together when possible. Of grading students not only on their individual abilities, but having a large percentage of their grade be a TEAM based score, assessing how well the provider performs as part of the TEAM.

 

I am glad to see LECOM do this, hopefully others will follow, and perhaps the allopathic world will notice. I'd be interested in studying the workforce trends of the graduates. I have also spoken to hundreds of people, and will be emailing Dr Steve Shannon my thoughts as well.

[bradtPA]

I am glad they did it; but at 52, I have no plans of gaining more debt by going back to school to take advantage of it.

[acozadd]

I've just skimmed through the responses, but it doesn't seem like too much of a "bridge," more like a medical school that only accepts PAs. The amount of time they shave off is minimal and the costs would be huge, especially taking into consideration lost wages (say 100K over a minimum 6 years plus that medical school debt of 100k+). Taking ms1 and ms2 would mean paying a lot of money to repeat many classes you've already taken and passed... I'm all for the idea of a bridge, but this seems to be a slap in the face of PA education. It basically screams "none of the classes you took in PA school are comparable to medical school, but you do have experience as a clinician so we will take off a few months of clinicals."

[Zeus]

I've just skimmed through the responses, but it doesn't seem like too much of a "bridge," more like a medical school that only accepts PAs. The amount of time they shave off is minimal and the costs would be huge, especially taking into consideration lost wages (say 100K over a minimum 6 years plus that medical school debt of 100k+). Taking ms1 and ms2 would mean paying a lot of money to repeat many classes you've already taken and passed... I'm all for the idea of a bridge, but this seems to be a slap in the face of PA education. It basically screams "none of the classes you took in PA school are comparable to medical school, but you do have experience as a clinician so we will take off a few months of clinicals."

 

I agree with you to a certian extent. I don't think this is the final version of what a bridge should look like for PAs but I think that if they decide to cut courses to make it shorter they won't trim much. Maybe history and phsical classes but the core med stuff will always remain it might just be accelerated cause we have gone through PA school and let's be honest, we are all use to fast pace education by now. My opinion of course...

[Evan]

I just skimmed this thread but I'm somewhat encouraged by what I have seen here... I have always thought that a well-defined pathway from PA to DO (MD) would be in the best interests of the PA profession. IMO PAs should be a "stepping stone" to being a doctor. (I think that some folks would remain as PAs while others at least would have the option to continue.) The debate is valid in any case. Sure, the PA bridge will not solve the doctor shortage but at this point it wouldn't hurt it.

 

As for this specific program, I was not impressed at first. But then, after some thought, I'm happy that the ivory tower has recognized the potential that PAs offer. Sure they aren't taking off much of the time requirement but it does translate into a 25% discount on tuition... That is something that hasn't been there in the past for those PAs who would go to med school.

 

It may not be an incentive for a PA to change careers but for a PA who was going to change anyway: it may be something...

[primadonna22274]

I agree with you Evan...the significant drive to go back to med school would likely already be there for someone who was willing to do this. A 25% tuition reduction (keeping in mind that LECOM is the 2nd cheapest of DO schools) makes a difference. They have to start somewhere and I think the way it's structured will be off to a solid start. Submitted my app last night (AACOMAS opened on June 1....) I would probably have reapplied next year anyway so I'm just moving it up a year. We'll see what happens.

 

It may not be an incentive for a PA to change careers but for a PA who was going to change anyway: it may be something...

[primadonna22274]

Look at it another way: a lot of medicine has changed since I was in PA school 10-12 years ago. I learned stuff as gospel that is now medical negligence if not frank malpractice (just look at WHI and the postmeno estrogen debacle of 2001). I think it's disingenuous to parrot the belief that med school curriculum is the same as PA curriculum. Sure, lots of it would be reinforcement and a motivated PA could sail through it, but the basic sciences that we lack (and which form the basis of step 1) would be a challenge for most PAs who don't have basic science PhDs already. I too would like to see credit granted for the stuff I know, have practiced and TAUGHT like physical diagnosis and psychosocial stuff...but I'm not sure if that's been ruled out entirely. We'll just have to see how it shakes out....

 

I've just skimmed through the responses, but it doesn't seem like too much of a "bridge," more like a medical school that only accepts PAs. The amount of time they shave off is minimal and the costs would be huge, especially taking into consideration lost wages (say 100K over a minimum 6 years plus that medical school debt of 100k+). Taking ms1 and ms2 would mean paying a lot of money to repeat many classes you've already taken and passed... I'm all for the idea of a bridge, but this seems to be a slap in the face of PA education. It basically screams "none of the classes you took in PA school are comparable to medical school, but you do have experience as a clinician so we will take off a few months of clinicals."

[acozadd]

Look at it another way: a lot of medicine has changed since I was in PA school 10-12 years ago. I learned stuff as gospel that is now medical negligence if not frank malpractice (just look at WHI and the postmeno estrogen debacle of 2001). I think it's disingenuous to parrot the belief that med school curriculum is the same as PA curriculum. Sure, lots of it would be reinforcement and a motivated PA could sail through it, but the basic sciences that we lack (and which form the basis of step 1) would be a challenge for most PAs who don't have basic science PhDs already. I too would like to see credit granted for the stuff I know, have practiced and TAUGHT like physical diagnosis and psychosocial stuff...but I'm not sure if that's been ruled out entirely. We'll just have to see how it shakes out....

 

I'm not saying that PA and MD schools have the same curriculum, but is there really a need to repeat anatomy? physiology? physical diagnosis? pharm? etc. etc.

Many of the above courses I literally take alongside DOs and DPMs at my program. For me, it still appears as a med school for PAs with a slight incentive of a few months taken off. I agree that things change in medicine constantly, but I dont feel that that point relates enough to this topic.

[haeriphos]

I'm not saying that PA and MD schools have the same curriculum, but is there really a need to repeat anatomy? physiology? physical diagnosis? pharm? etc. etc.

Many of the above courses I literally take alongside DOs and DPMs at my program. For me, it still appears as a med school for PAs with a slight incentive of a few months taken off. I agree that things change in medicine constantly, but I dont feel that that point relates enough to this topic.

 

I agree. I think a huge improvement to this would be the addition of a course challenge based on previous education. If you've already taken graduate level anatomy, why retake it? Probably not much has changed in ten years. Same thing for pharm, ESPECIALLY if you took it at a medical or osteopathic school. I think that individualized approach is where the bridge would really come in -- don't make the PAs retake courses they've already succeeded in. I wonder if getting exempted from courses like this would count against the WHO's 3-year requirement.

 

Then again, there's something to be said for keeping the 12 PAs together for comraderie's sake in this brave new venture.

[istat2]

I agree with you Evan...the significant drive to go back to med school would likely already be there for someone who was willing to do this. A 25% tuition reduction (keeping in mind that LECOM is the 2nd cheapest of DO schools) makes a difference. They have to start somewhere and I think the way it's structured will be off to a solid start. Submitted my app last night (AACOMAS opened on June 1....) I would probably have reapplied next year anyway so I'm just moving it up a year. We'll see what happens.

 

Best of luck to ya!

[just_me]

Good luck primadonna!!!!

 

This reminds me of the AA bridge at Emory---you still have the same pre-reqs to meet and its really not that much shorter BUT what do you do when you cant shorten a program and you have to have certain pre-reqs? You do it. At least they plan to make it where students can still work which should cut down on debt intake---99% of PA students cant really do that....

 

It seems like the main complaint is that its not shorter---well its already been established that the program has to be at least 3 years based on accredidation standards so at this point its something that cant be changed.

 

Now as for classes are you taking these courses with other med students or would these courses be created specifically to build upon the knowledge that PAs already have? What if instead of 2 years book work and 1 year clinical, it were 1 year book work and 2 years clinical? At least that way it is more hands on, the PA would have the opportunity to build on current base knowledge and also make them more appealing in the residency app process?

 

 

Obviously I know nothing about being a PA or being a med student---just spit-balling

[Contrarian]

I'm still trying to figure out WHY people keep writing about the mythical 25% discount.

There is NO 25% discount as you paid that 25% plus more to complete your PA program.

 

Think about it...

$100k for the traditional DO program.

$75k for this PA to DO experiment

You HAVE to be a PA to get in so you HAVE to include the $60-$80k it took to become a PA into this equation. So now its costing MORE to do this than if you would have gone straight to DO school... :heheh:

 

If the MCAT is required... by extention all the same pre-reqs are still required in order to score decently on this test. This is not really a "bridge"... it is a modified admission process to a fairly standard 3 yr DO program.

 

 

Good luck Primadonna...!!!

 

Contrarian

[EMEDPA]

my understanding is that the "bridgers" will take courses alongside the regular track students, they will just take fewer clinical rotations. the 25% discount is obviously vs a 4 yr program which is the alternative for someone already credentialed as a pa.

contrarian is correct that there is no savings for someone starting from scratch who has to do PA + DO, but for the already credentialed PA this is the best deal out there so far.

the only stumbling block for an applicant to this program is the requirement to take the mcat and get a min of 22. not too difficult for someone right out of undergrad but potentially challenging for someone such as myself who is > 20 yrs removed from some of the basic science coursework reflected on the mcat. I last took general chemistry in the 80's. my physics and stats are more current( 2002) and I could probably relearn that stuff faster than chem.

[istat2]

The school acknowledging PA's is a good begining. But it's the concept of the thing. AA schools with advanced placement, acceptance into a DO school, the PA/PhD program and the DHS degrees. The dead end is going away. There is no telling where this will end. I foresee more good things coming down the pike (I know call me an optimist)