Has anyone ever shadowed a PA and then decided to NOT go to PA school

[Maynard]

All you pre-PAs have heard the advice that you should shadow a PA. Some schools even require a certain number of hours spent shadowing. As I understand it, shadowing is important because it shows that you know what you're getting into and thus you're less likely to later leave the field (compared to a student who leapt without looking).

 

This sounds reasonable enough, but I've always doubted that shadowing was actually affecting students' decision-making process. A student may have a little more insight into a PA's day-to-day work after shadowing, but does this ever actually translate into a student realizing they're not cut out for the field and should do something else? If shadowing actually led to students making better career choices, then at some point shadowing would have to lead to students making a different choice than the one they were set on before they started shadowing.

 

Do any of you know someone who changed their mind about PA school after shadowing? Has anyone ever shadowed a PA, only to never apply to PA school?

 

Just curious.

[db_pavnp]

This does strike me as a very "keep up with the neighboors" hoop at this point.

[ckas22]

A huge reason you shadow is, in fact, being able to put the hours on your application. Personally, though, I was strongly debating between MPH degree and PA and decided to shadow a PA who also happened to be a friend from church. That experience 100% solidified my desire to become a PA. I knew that was exactly what I wanted to do every day. 

 

So, if you're on the fence about PA, shadowing is great in helping you decide. It also helps you know for sure. You may feel like you want to be a PA but unless you observe one, how would you know if that really is what you want to do? It's helpful to observe the PA/MD dynamic and how the healthcare team interacts and works together. 

[Glorious_Ignoramus]

After a grueling application cycle, I am in the process of reviewing whether or not to continue in this vein.  If viewed from an economical perspective, pa school is not a wise option for someone with prior financial commitments:

 

- Competition is unreasonably and artificially very, very high.  Average schools are more competitive than top med schools...this is especially boggling considering the residency bottleneck.  This tends to create an atmosphere of living to impress an adcom with numbers and hours rather than with bona fide medical experience.  I sat in waiting rooms full of fresh college grads and wondered to myself "what happened to the competency aspect of this process...most of the people I'm applying with aren't even old enough to apply for a mortgage."

 

- Tuition is absolutely insane.  All of my prospective schools charged medical school rates and fees, yet the education is obviously neither as in depth nor as rigorous as medical school.  PA students are a cash cow right now because demand for the degree is so stinking high.

 

- PAs have some of the worst community representation of medical providers I have seen, and there is little indication that incumbents are going to change anything any time soon.

 

- PAs tend to carry the same or higher workload as their SPs yet they get paid about 1/3.  First world problem, sure.  Worst about this is that the country's largest employer of dependent practitioners, the VA, pays beans and rice to its PAs and tends to give more autonomous roles to NPs.

 

- It is not uncommon for applicants, who would otherwise be competitive medical or DO applicants, apply for 2-3 cycles before becoming accepted.  The opportunity cost is huge for working professionals.

 

- Something is fundamentally flawed with a degree which surpasses doctoral level courses in terms of units taken, yet only a master's degree and the title of assistant are awarded - the retrogrouches will argue that this doesn't matter, but the professional world and the government will beg to differ.  Times are a changing,  yet the field is standing still, leaving a void wherein private schools like Drexel to push for a doctorate which is obviously in their financial interest.

 

Overall, one must weigh in these factors with one's desire to become a PA.  It seems to me that the program at many schools is nearly just medical school lite, which of course conveys the symptoms we currently see like jacked up tuition, increased applicant pools, etc.

[guiriguiri]

I'm sure there are but you won't find them in clinics or in these forums because, you know, they decided to do something else.

[PAGuy55]

After a grueling application cycle, I am in the process of reviewing whether or not to continue in this vein.  If viewed from an economical perspective, pa school is not a wise option for someone with prior financial commitments:

 

- Competition is unreasonably and artificially very, very high.  Average schools are more competitive than top med schools...this is especially boggling considering the residency bottleneck.  This tends to create an atmosphere of living to impress an adcom with numbers and hours rather than with bona fide medical experience.  I sat in waiting rooms full of fresh college grads and wondered to myself "what happened to the competency aspect of this process...most of the people I'm applying with aren't even old enough to apply for a mortgage."

 

- Tuition is absolutely insane.  All of my prospective schools charged medical school rates and fees, yet the education is obviously neither as in depth nor as rigorous as medical school.  PA students are a cash cow right now because demand for the degree is so stinking high.

 

- PAs have some of the worst community representation of medical providers I have seen, and there is little indication that incumbents are going to change anything any time soon.

 

- PAs tend to carry the same or higher workload as their SPs yet they get paid about 1/3.  First world problem, sure.  Worst about this is that the country's largest employer of dependent practitioners, the VA, pays beans and rice to its PAs and tends to give more autonomous roles to NPs.

 

- It is not uncommon for applicants, who would otherwise be competitive medical or DO applicants, apply for 2-3 cycles before becoming accepted.  The opportunity cost is huge for working professionals.

 

- Something is fundamentally flawed with a degree which surpasses doctoral level courses in terms of units taken, yet only a master's degree and the title of assistant are awarded - the retrogrouches will argue that this doesn't matter, but the professional world and the government will beg to differ.  Times are a changing,  yet the field is standing still, leaving a void wherein private schools like Drexel to push for a doctorate which is obviously in their financial interest.

 

Overall, one must weigh in these factors with one's desire to become a PA.  It seems to me that the program at many schools is nearly just medical school lite, which of course conveys the symptoms we currently see like jacked up tuition, increased applicant pools, etc.

Eh. I can live with this. I stopped caring what others thought about me a long time ago. Takes a lot of unnecessary stress away. Med school is just not realistic for me personally. 8+ years in training for a job? No way lol.

[PAGuy55]

Plus. We earn more in one year than my total cost for PA school. As opposed to lets say Dental or Vet school. Some Dental schools cost 500,000

[EMEDPA]

the whole concept of "pa shadowing" is new since 2000 or so in pa school applications. it used to be that foilks knew about pas because they had significant hce and worked with them. I guess if you start allowing silly stuff as hce you have to start allowing knowledge of the pa profession to be gained during 8 hrs of shadowing instead of 5 years of work experience.

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

the whole concept of "pa shadowing" is new since 2000 or so in pa school applications. it used to be that foilks knew about pas because they had significant hce and worked with them. I guess if you start allowing silly stuff as hce you have to start allowing knowledge of the pa profession to be gained during 8 hrs of shadowing instead of 5 years of work experience.

It's a miracle that we even got into a program since no one knew back then what a PA was, including the majority of the healthcare field, thus PA shadowing was a figment of the imagination.  First PA I ever met was when I went to interview.  How silly of programs to actually want people with REAL healthcare experience back at that time (military, EMS like myself when EMS was still new, other healthcare fields such as RT, etc.) that are already familiar with direct care.

[Holly_Diana]

After a grueling application cycle, I am in the process of reviewing whether or not to continue in this vein.  If viewed from an economical perspective, pa school is not a wise option for someone with prior financial commitments:

 

- Competition is unreasonably and artificially very, very high.  Average schools are more competitive than top med schools...this is especially boggling considering the residency bottleneck.  This tends to create an atmosphere of living to impress an adcom with numbers and hours rather than with bona fide medical experience.  I sat in waiting rooms full of fresh college grads and wondered to myself "what happened to the competency aspect of this process...most of the people I'm applying with aren't even old enough to apply for a mortgage."

 

- Tuition is absolutely insane.  All of my prospective schools charged medical school rates and fees, yet the education is obviously neither as in depth nor as rigorous as medical school.  PA students are a cash cow right now because demand for the degree is so stinking high.

 

- PAs have some of the worst community representation of medical providers I have seen, and there is little indication that incumbents are going to change anything any time soon.

 

- PAs tend to carry the same or higher workload as their SPs yet they get paid about 1/3.  First world problem, sure.  Worst about this is that the country's largest employer of dependent practitioners, the VA, pays beans and rice to its PAs and tends to give more autonomous roles to NPs.

 

- It is not uncommon for applicants, who would otherwise be competitive medical or DO applicants, apply for 2-3 cycles before becoming accepted.  The opportunity cost is huge for working professionals.

 

- Something is fundamentally flawed with a degree which surpasses doctoral level courses in terms of units taken, yet only a master's degree and the title of assistant are awarded - the retrogrouches will argue that this doesn't matter, but the professional world and the government will beg to differ.  Times are a changing,  yet the field is standing still, leaving a void wherein private schools like Drexel to push for a doctorate which is obviously in their financial interest.

 

Overall, one must weigh in these factors with one's desire to become a PA.  It seems to me that the program at many schools is nearly just medical school lite, which of course conveys the symptoms we currently see like jacked up tuition, increased applicant pools, etc.

I wouldn't agree 100% that PA School is "less rigorous" than Med School. I have friends in the Medical Program at the school I attend for PA School, and they feel our program is more rigorous than there program currently (they are taking 2 classes right now and we are taking 10 classes + clinic 1 day a week). As well, our program's cost is about $100,000+ less than the medical school program plus we graduate earlier which means we have a better chance of paying off our debt faster while their loans keep accruing interest. I know this is just one program example and other programs may definitely fit the description you have stated about your experience thus far, but I did want to point out that not all programs follow some of the statements you listed. I did have to apply twice and I do think that the application pool to acceptance ratio is definitely different from Medical School. 

[Guest JPG13]

After a grueling application cycle, I am in the process of reviewing whether or not to continue in this vein.  If viewed from an economical perspective, pa school is not a wise option for someone with prior financial commitments:

 

- Competition is unreasonably and artificially very, very high.  Average schools are more competitive than top med schools...this is especially boggling considering the residency bottleneck.  This tends to create an atmosphere of living to impress an adcom with numbers and hours rather than with bona fide medical experience.  I sat in waiting rooms full of fresh college grads and wondered to myself "what happened to the competency aspect of this process...most of the people I'm applying with aren't even old enough to apply for a mortgage."

 

- Tuition is absolutely insane.  All of my prospective schools charged medical school rates and fees, yet the education is obviously neither as in depth nor as rigorous as medical school.  PA students are a cash cow right now because demand for the degree is so stinking high.

 

- PAs have some of the worst community representation of medical providers I have seen, and there is little indication that incumbents are going to change anything any time soon.

 

- PAs tend to carry the same or higher workload as their SPs yet they get paid about 1/3.  First world problem, sure.  Worst about this is that the country's largest employer of dependent practitioners, the VA, pays beans and rice to its PAs and tends to give more autonomous roles to NPs.

 

- It is not uncommon for applicants, who would otherwise be competitive medical or DO applicants, apply for 2-3 cycles before becoming accepted.  The opportunity cost is huge for working professionals.

 

- Something is fundamentally flawed with a degree which surpasses doctoral level courses in terms of units taken, yet only a master's degree and the title of assistant are awarded - the retrogrouches will argue that this doesn't matter, but the professional world and the government will beg to differ.  Times are a changing,  yet the field is standing still, leaving a void wherein private schools like Drexel to push for a doctorate which is obviously in their financial interest.

 

Overall, one must weigh in these factors with one's desire to become a PA.  It seems to me that the program at many schools is nearly just medical school lite, which of course conveys the symptoms we currently see like jacked up tuition, increased applicant pools, etc.

 

So just to make sure I understand what you're saying: competitiveness for PA school has been artificially inflated (probably because it's a trendy profession and a lot of unqualified people apply, artificially driving acceptance rates down)... this leads to a type of frenzy over numbers and stats. I agree with that. But I don't think it's decreasing the quality of incoming PA classes at competent and respectable programs. It just means the admissions committees can be pickier, but it's not like they're actively choosing unqualified applicants. If anything it drives the qualified applicants to have high GPAs and good HCE... I don't see how that's bad. 

 

I agree that tuition is getting insane. But tuition is getting insane for every medical-related graduate-type program. Med school, PA school, NP school, DPT school, AA school, etc. 

 

Honestly I think if an applicant goes into an application cycle with a good GPA and HCE, they will get into PA school. Maybe they won't get into their top choice or even their 2nd top choice, but if they apply *broadly but wisely* they'll get in. There are many who get in first try. For those who have to try 2-3 times, I admire their persistence and hard work. But most of the time, they know going in that they're fighting an uphill battle.

 

I generally agree with your other points, although I don't think it should discourage qualified people from applying to PA school. It's a new profession and it will face challenges such as these as it grows.

 

To answer OP's question, I never really even shadowed a PA. I put the names of PAs I worked with to fill that checkmark (with their blessing, of course), because I knew what PAs did from my job. 

 

However I did shadow an Anesthesiology Assistant twice and that told me it wasn't the career for me.

[Strohmboli]

I must be in the minority in that I actually think shadowing is worthwhile. In my experience, my shadowing has been nothing short of a great experience. This is probably due to the fact that the providers I have chosen to follow are PAs that I work with on a regular basis in the ED and know me well. They treat me like a PA-S, essentially. They let me evaluate/assess patients on my own and ask me lots of critical thinking questions like: do we need imaging? what films? Should we consult? what sutures would you use? etc etc. Granted it's a small sample size but it's a hell of a lot more useful than quietly following someone around for 8 hours. I think the key is combining your HCE working alongside PAs and a shadowing to get a feel for what it's like to think like a provider and not just "oh so that's what you do"

[UGoLong]

Shadowing is important, no matter what career you are interested in. When I was thinking about engineering in 9th grade, my Dad set me up to spend a day with a flight test engineer at the nearby Air Force base. It's more more than 50 years later, but I still remember the guy I saw only once, his working environment, how he was dressed, and what he had to say.

 

I have also known people who had a few thoughts rattling around in their minds and, on the basis of that only, launched off in a particular career direction. Sometimes that works, but it often does not. You could decide to be a PA because you liked the PA in "ER" or the one in "Royal Pains", or even the one in the practice you go to for your own healthcare needs. 

 

Sometimes though, even a few hours spent in the real world will teach you more than a few years rattling around in your own head.

[clhook]

I can understand the shadowing of PAs, but I think it can also show a watered down version of the career itself. Of course I think it also comes down to what your intended specialty is. If you know you want to work family medicine, pediatrics, etc it makes a lot of sense to shadow those to understand their day to day. However, if your future goals are in trauma, ortho, emergency medicine etc I think shadowing may not give you the best view. I'm glad that shadowing hours aren't always required and if they are it is a limited number because I'd say working in direct patient contact along with PAs is going to give a much better look at what you're in for day to day.

 

 

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[murphycol31]

I shadowed at a hospital that had a PA summer observer program. We were basically given a list of over 50 PA's in various departments and we would contact them. You would choose dates and times and shadow that PA. You could do any PA or department as often as you'd like and sometimes as many hours in a day as you wanted to. It was an invaluable experience. Half the summer focused on inpatient while the other was outpatient. I shadowed in departments such as surgery, women's health, neonatal critical care, critical care, neurological associates, oncology, internal medicine among others. It was fascinating and aloud me to truly capture the role of a PA in many aspects. It not only helped solidify my want and desire to be a PA, but motivated me to work hard to get in. Goodluck and I truly do recommend shadowing

 

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[Kim235]

I shadowed at a hospital that had a PA summer observer program. We were basically given a list of over 50 PA's in various departments and we would contact them. You would choose dates and times and shadow that PA. You could do any PA or department as often as you'd like and sometimes as many hours in a day as you wanted to. It was an invaluable experience. Half the summer focused on inpatient while the other was outpatient. I shadowed in departments such as surgery, women's health, neonatal critical care, critical care, neurological associates, oncology, internal medicine among others. It was fascinating and aloud me to truly capture the role of a PA in many aspects. It not only helped solidify my want and desire to be a PA, but motivated me to work hard to get in. Goodluck and I truly do recommend shadowing

 

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wow, wish I had something like that near me-it was pretty hard to find PAs to shadow

[joshuatree]

That sounds like a great program.  I have been faced with miles of red-tape if I try to shadow anything but completely hands off family practice.

 

More and more hospitals and private practices are requiring surgical observation to be done only by matriculated med/pa/dpt etc students.

[Glorious_Ignoramus]

Eh. I can live with this. I stopped caring what others thought about me a long time ago. Takes a lot of unnecessary stress away. Med school is just not realistic for me personally. 8+ years in training for a job? No way lol.

 

And that's perfectly acceptable if you're okay with it.  The problem I see is when looking 20 years into future; there isn't much room for growth the way things are right now, i.e. the terminal degree is a master's, there is no hope of making it to administrative positions (chief of staff, department chief, etc), and the absolute top end of the pay scale is still only a fraction of what your SP will make while hours will remain either the same or increased due to projected patient load increases and continued provider shortage.  BUT like I said, if you like it, then you like it and there's nothing wrong with that.  I'm young and looking at 30+ years left in my working life and have a hard time reconciling that.  Time in the military as well as my undergrad taught me that as an adult with a family I must not rely on assumptions but rather it would behoove me to sweat the details now for a long term projection.  If it doesn't make the cut for my standards then it just flat out doesn't make the cut.  E.g., I would have loved to remain a combat medic for the rest of my life but the reality is that things don't work that way, and I'm not going to spend the rest of my life making a paramedic's salary.

 

To make a direct comparison with medical school is unfair; what you're saying sounds a lot like "well, medical school is too long/hard so why not PA school?"  That's exactly what is flooding the applicant pool and making it very difficult for those with actual experience to get in without pulling off med school stats.

 

 

So just to make sure I understand what you're saying: competitiveness for PA school has been artificially inflated (probably because it's a trendy profession and a lot of unqualified people apply, artificially driving acceptance rates down)... this leads to a type of frenzy over numbers and stats. I agree with that. But I don't think it's decreasing the quality of incoming PA classes at competent and respectable programs. It just means the admissions committees can be pickier, but it's not like they're actively choosing unqualified applicants. If anything it drives the qualified applicants to have high GPAs and good HCE... I don't see how that's bad. 

 

I agree that tuition is getting insane. But tuition is getting insane for every medical-related graduate-type program. Med school, PA school, NP school, DPT school, AA school, etc. 

 

Honestly I think if an applicant goes into an application cycle with a good GPA and HCE, they will get into PA school. Maybe they won't get into their top choice or even their 2nd top choice, but if they apply *broadly but wisely* they'll get in. There are many who get in first try. For those who have to try 2-3 times, I admire their persistence and hard work. But most of the time, they know going in that they're fighting an uphill battle.

 

I generally agree with your other points, although I don't think it should discourage qualified people from applying to PA school. It's a new profession and it will face challenges such as these as it grows.

 

To answer OP's question, I never really even shadowed a PA. I put the names of PAs I worked with to fill that checkmark (with their blessing, of course), because I knew what PAs did from my job. 

 

However I did shadow an Anesthesiology Assistant twice and that told me it wasn't the career for me.

 

That's not the point; what I am saying is rather that it is driving up average accepted scores and stats to an unreasonable level.  If you want to be competitive for PA school now, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor to keep your GPA above 3.5 with <2015 med school pre-reqs in addition to shawdowing (which is now requisite for an application in many schools, even for those who have very high quality HCE and PCE).  Those, my friends, are med school stats; take the MCAT instead of the GRE and you will have an application that is reasonably competitive at many allopathic and most osteopathic med schools which sport higher average acceptance rates than most PA programs.  So, what's the point, you ask?  If the only real difference in the application is the GRE vs the MCAT (shadowing notwithstanding...anyone can knock that out over a summer) then the shortest, easiest path to becoming a medical provider with a near-6-figure salary is PA school.

 

PA school began as a means to extend physician care using highly trained and competent non-licensed medical providers.  Corpsmen, actually, which is what I did in the Navy.  What it has evolved into is a professional certification which grants 95% of a physician's responsibilities, 150% of a physician's working hours, 90% of a physician's med school pre-requisites, 100% of the physician's med school application process, and for 30-40% of a physician's income.  I'm not saying $80k on average is bad, but it's relatively very little to the SP for whom the PA relieves workload and shares a patient panel with.  The dilemma for me at this point is whether or not another application cycle is worth all of this.  Most of the work for less than half the pay and little to no room to grow outside of the examination rooms.

 

PA is a new profession, but so is NP and they are light years ahead PAs.  Year after year it's the same old non-progress from the powers that be, to the point that schools themselves are starting to take up the mantle for the younger generation by pushing for doctorate level degrees - the problem with this of course is that for the school it is a financial motiviation, i.e. degree creep at its finest.

 

I've been on both sides of the aisle, med school applicant as well as PA, and I can tell you that the only difference between the two is that 1) med school applicants tend to be much more mature for their peergroup's age and 2) the MCAT.  Everything else is nearly identical, so I have to ask myself why not just go to med school if it's this stinking hard anyways?  The answer is...well I haven't quite fleshed that out yet.  I'm not saying PA school should be, per se, easy to get into, but the applicant and tuition bubbles are absolutely ludicrous for the end result.  The scale is heavily tipping in the wrong direction for the wrong reasons.  I can't imagine why anyone who is young and with prior financial commitments wouldn't consider this.  Notwithstanding, of course, the immature notion of oh but I just want to treat patients and help people!  Sure, we all want to help people, but I want to make a decent living, climb a career ladder and actually raise my family at the same time.

 

 

I wouldn't agree 100% that PA School is "less rigorous" than Med School. I have friends in the Medical Program at the school I attend for PA School, and they feel our program is more rigorous than there program currently (they are taking 2 classes right now and we are taking 10 classes + clinic 1 day a week). As well, our program's cost is about $100,000+ less than the medical school program plus we graduate earlier which means we have a better chance of paying off our debt faster while their loans keep accruing interest. I know this is just one program example and other programs may definitely fit the description you have stated about your experience thus far, but I did want to point out that not all programs follow some of the statements you listed. I did have to apply twice and I do think that the application pool to acceptance ratio is definitely different from Medical School. 

 

I don't mean to be crass, but let me reiterate what you just said here:  "PA school is easier than med school, because my friends told me so."  Yeah.  You need to spend some time on SDN and get that beaten out of you right now while you still have time to learn your place with respect to PAs vs physicians.

[db_pavnp]

I followed your entire post up until this last bit where I am not sure the quoted bit and your bit match.

[ms.m.dineva]

I followed your entire post up until this last bit where I am not sure the quoted bit and your bit match.

lol same, I had to re-read it to make sure I wasn't tripping. I think he got exhausted after all the typing, and mixed up.

 

 

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[EMEDPA]

Glorious- agree with your conclusions. If I were staring over today and had to take ochem, biochem, etc I would just go to medschool. NOT taking those classes was one of the primary reasons I chose PA over med school. it wasn't the right choice, but it was the one I made 26 years ago and now I have to live with it...

[Guest JPG13]

 

That's not the point; what I am saying is rather that it is driving up average accepted scores and stats to an unreasonable level.  If you want to be competitive for PA school now, you'd be doing yourself a huge favor to keep your GPA above 3.5 with <2015 med school pre-reqs in addition to shawdowing (which is now requisite for an application in many schools, even for those who have very high quality HCE and PCE).  Those, my friends, are med school stats; take the MCAT instead of the GRE and you will have an application that is reasonably competitive at many allopathic and most osteopathic med schools which sport higher average acceptance rates than most PA programs.  So, what's the point, you ask?  If the only real difference in the application is the GRE vs the MCAT (shadowing notwithstanding...anyone can knock that out over a summer) then the shortest, easiest path to becoming a medical provider with a near-6-figure salary is PA school.

 

PA school began as a means to extend physician care using highly trained and competent non-licensed medical providers.  Corpsmen, actually, which is what I did in the Navy.  What it has evolved into is a professional certification which grants 95% of a physician's responsibilities, 150% of a physician's working hours, 90% of a physician's med school pre-requisites, 100% of the physician's med school application process, and for 30-40% of a physician's income.  I'm not saying $80k on average is bad, but it's relatively very little to the SP for whom the PA relieves workload and shares a patient panel with.  The dilemma for me at this point is whether or not another application cycle is worth all of this.  Most of the work for less than half the pay and little to no room to grow outside of the examination rooms.

 

PA is a new profession, but so is NP and they are light years ahead PAs.  Year after year it's the same old non-progress from the powers that be, to the point that schools themselves are starting to take up the mantle for the younger generation by pushing for doctorate level degrees - the problem with this of course is that for the school it is a financial motiviation, i.e. degree creep at its finest.

 

I've been on both sides of the aisle, med school applicant as well as PA, and I can tell you that the only difference between the two is that 1) med school applicants tend to be much more mature for their peergroup's age and 2) the MCAT.  Everything else is nearly identical, so I have to ask myself why not just go to med school if it's this stinking hard anyways?  The answer is...well I haven't quite fleshed that out yet.  I'm not saying PA school should be, per se, easy to get into, but the applicant and tuition bubbles are absolutely ludicrous for the end result.  The scale is heavily tipping in the wrong direction for the wrong reasons.  I can't imagine why anyone who is young and with prior financial commitments wouldn't consider this.  Notwithstanding, of course, the immature notion of oh but I just want to treat patients and help people!  Sure, we all want to help people, but I want to make a decent living, climb a career ladder and actually raise my family at the same time.

 

I mean... yeah. PA is very attractive to many, many people. Are schools going to just turn down this giant drove of applicants with good GPAs and HCE? No. That's just something you're going to have to accept. 

 

Also... let's stop pretending that if an applicant has a >3.5 GPA, the only difference between PA and MD admissions is the MCAT/GRE. First of all, the MCAT is so much harder than the GRE, so saying "meh, just take the MCAT" is pretty blase. The GRE is stupidly easy. Second of all, Asian applicants had an average GPA of 3.73, and white applicants had an average GPA of 3.72. This data is taken straight from the AAMC. So assuming that the overwhelming majority of PA applicants are white (they are), it's not enough just to say >3.5 = competitive for MD. It's more like 3.7. So if you have a 3.7 GPA, a good MCAT, extracurricular life with leadership experience, community service, clinical experience hours, shadowing, and depending on the school, research experience, why not go to med school? Because that's what you need to be a solid MD candidate. I'm really tired of people claiming the PA admissions is just as difficult, or even harder, then MD admissions. 

 

So now we ask, why don't they just apply to DO school since the GPA/MCAT averages are lower? Again, you have to accept how attractive the PA profession is to many people. I'm sure many PAs here will rush to say "being a PA is just as stressful as being an MD, don't be naive, go to MD/DO. You'll regret it in 30 years when your scope is limited." At the same time, I've met many older PAs who point-blank say "I'm glad I chose PA." And this is such a cliche, but I've also met PAs who are older mothers who can't say enough about how being a PA let them strike a great balance between raising a family and having a fulfilling profession. And time to be politically incorrect here, but if someone was holding a gun to my head and asked me if women or men have a harder time not being "the head boss," I'd say men. No surprise that women dominate this field...

 

Also, 150% of supervising physician's hours? Stop being dramatic. I know there are PAs on here who don't like their job, but I've talked to lots of real-life PAs who love their job. I've worked with them. I've seen how many hours they work. Yes, some have reservations and a few criticisms. But most of them enjoy their profession. People who are considering this job need to get varied opinions, not just ones from the internet. At this point you're just fear-mongering.

 

The nursing lobby is powerful, more powerful than the doctors. Why? Because of numbers. There are 40,000+ more NPs than PAs, not to mention the millions of RNs. I'm not saying "let's just give up." We should work towards and demand progress, and of course be critical of those in power, but it's not fair to decide that because the nursing lobby is so powerful the PA profession is doomed. PAs don't have people dumping millions of dollars into the lawmaking process, so it's going to be much harder. If this is something that concerns you... why don't you just do NP? 

 

Also, about all this bemoaning about the decline in quality of HCE. I found this post very insightful. It's from someone who's actually been on PA adcoms. A good quote:

 

"The real fact of the matter is that the applicant pool of experienced medics, RTs, nurses, etc. is shrinking. The profession has been around long enough now (50+ years), that those whom have decided to make the jump to PA have already done so. The others have chosen to finish out their respective careers. So now the intake is drawing from a changing pool. 10 or 20-year medics aren't being denied spots, their rates of applying have simply dwindled." 

 

In fact, that entire thread I linked is applicable. 

[db_pavnp]

Grade A thread and popcorn.

 

However, I did look at the reddit thread very quickly, per your suggestion, and I think one should be careful about taking too much of it as gospel.  Ok, that guy has been on an adcom and he writes well and voluminously, but that doesn't mean he is correct.  His claims are interesting, but super presumptive.  For example:

 

But my hospital system has openings for PharmDs. It's just some (or many) wanted a well paying, cushy retail job and now the pay isn't as great. Sorry, they got into it for the wrong reasons then.

 

I gotta say, my experience working directly with PharmDs strongly suggests that the opposite is true.  Retail is anything but cushy and the clinical jobs are in high demand.  If he has openings in his system, it isn't because of the PharmDs, it's because his hospital has unrealistic wage expectations.

 

This guy might be insightful, but I don't swallow his claims whole horse.

 

Also, I don't really have an opinion on the MCAT vs GRE thing, however to say the GRE is stupid easy and that the MCAT is "harder" only means that the MCAT is easy.  Which is generally my impression of standardized testing at this point.  The preparatory material for tests is so DAMN good these days and the tools available for learning are so DAMN strong that success is in the hands of anyone who wants it.

[unicorns]

Well, I shadowed a couple of occupational therapists, then decided that was NOT for me.

 

I shadowed a family medicine PA and a day of that has me thinking I'm not inclined towards family med.....but I've shadowed PAs in other fields and enjoyed what I saw.

[danniegiirl]

So just to make sure I understand what you're saying: competitiveness for PA school has been artificially inflated (probably because it's a trendy profession and a lot of unqualified people apply, artificially driving acceptance rates down)... this leads to a type of frenzy over numbers and stats. I agree with that. But I don't think it's decreasing the quality of incoming PA classes at competent and respectable programs. It just means the admissions committees can be pickier, but it's not like they're actively choosing unqualified applicants. If anything it drives the qualified applicants to have high GPAs and good HCE... I don't see how that's bad.

I agree that tuition is getting insane. But tuition is getting insane for every medical-related graduate-type program. Med school, PA school, NP school, DPT school, AA school, etc.

Honestly I think if an applicant goes into an application cycle with a good GPA and HCE, they will get into PA school. Maybe they won't get into their top choice or even their 2nd top choice, but if they apply *broadly but wisely* they'll get in. There are many who get in first try. For those who have to try 2-3 times, I admire their persistence and hard work. But most of the time, they know going in that they're fighting an uphill battle.

I generally agree with your other points, although I don't think it should discourage qualified people from applying to PA school. It's a new profession and it will face challenges such as these as it grows.

To answer OP's question, I never really even shadowed a PA. I put the names of PAs I worked with to fill that checkmark (with their blessing, of course), because I knew what PAs did from my job.

However I did shadow an Anesthesiology Assistant twice and that told me it wasn't the career for me.

I had been wondering if noting that I work with PAs daily was an option. I've worked in an Orthopedic clinic as well as in the OR totaling 4 years so far.... think I should still shadow?

 

 

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