Question to PA's : do you envy doctors?

[December]

I was just wondering if the PAs who are working as pas envy doctors and the money they make. Do you envy them because they make more money doing the same thing that you do? Do you regret making the choice to become a PA? Do you think it is worth it to be a PA? Do you enjoy your job? Would you choose MD path if you had a choice? Do you regret this?

[marilynpac]

It isn't the money that they make but the autonomy that MD/DOs have. I don't regret b/c a PA but I do regret the fact that we are not represented like Physicians and NPs are. Because of this our Profession hasn't progressed with the rapid pace that NPs have even though we are much better taught and trained. Most PAs enjoy their career, but as with every profession you have a few stragglers that aren't happy no matter how good they have it. If I had to do it all over again, knowing what I know now I would have chosen the NP route, not MD/DO. No one would have guessed that the representation of our profession would not have progressed us to where we should be, instead of where we are at. This is the regrettable part.

[jmj11]

I don't regret becoming a PA. I don't envy MD money. I do envy the ease that society makes things for them. Starting my new clinic is more than double the effort than it would have been if I were an MD. When the bank thought I was an MD in early December, there were prepared to write me a check on the spot for 200 K. Once I explained that I was a PA . . . well, it has been hell. Five months later and I've yet to see a dime of the 65K I'm asking for. That's the part I envy. The loan will come but at a great effort because I'm a PA.

[EMEDPA]

90% of the time I am happy as a pa. 10% of the time I wish I was a doc. these are not issues about pay but respect and scope of practice. I make more than many primary care md's so money is not the issue.

if I had to do it over I would go to med school because of that 10%.

[acozadd]

I'm only a PA student so take what I say with a grain of salt... but my primary reasoning for becoming a PA is the fact that I will be done with school around the time I turn 25, will be making a nice salary, and Ill have a decent amount of freedom regarding the specialty that I enter. The fact that my debt is minimal compared to med students, and Ill be able to enjoy the better part of my 20s while earning a decent living in a worthwhile profession that I enjoy is a no brainer. When I'm 40 might I be a little upset with my pay compared to docs that are doing the same job that I am? Or will the lack of respect that PAs get at times grow old? Maybe, but the benefits for me far outweigh any negatives. Would I want to spend another 5-10 years in school and accumulate another 250K+ in debt just to avoid those negatives I mentioned? Not a chance... (at this point anyway).

[marilynpac]

I'm only a PA student so take what I say with a grain of salt... but my primary reasoning for becoming a PA is the fact that I will be done with school around the time I turn 25, will be making a nice salary, and Ill have a decent amount of freedom regarding the specialty that I enter. The fact that my debt is minimal compared to med students, and Ill be able to enjoy the better part of my 20s while earning a decent living in a worthwhile profession that I enjoy is a no brainer. When I'm 40 might I be a little upset with my pay compared to docs that are doing the same job that I am? Or will the lack of respect that PAs get at times grow old? Maybe, but the benefits for me far outweigh any negatives. Would I want to spend another 5-10 years in school and accumulate another 250K+ in debt just to avoid those negatives I mentioned? Not a chance... (at this point anyway).

 

 

Very interesting, everyone that answered before you...all over 40.

[njsurgpa]

Its funny--everyones perspective is soo different depending on your practice location..I do not envy NPs bc everywhere I have worked, PAs were far more utilized; We are a smaller community even though we have been around longer because we are not pumping out grads as fast as they apply (look at how quickly the number of NP programs have risen - power in numbers). I think PAs are a well represented profession, but we can always get more aggressive (look at the PA/NP Advance magazine, mostly written by NPs and PAs are clearly overshadowed IMO).

 

With respect to docs, I am a bit jealous of their salary - not the PCPs but the specialists that I have worked under that are clearly much lazier than I am (obviously had enough drive to make it through residency/fellowship however), and still making a much larger salary - but I knew this well before going into PA school. In the end, you make more, you spend more! If I had to do it all over again, I would def. be a PA or MAYBE a dentist for the pure workload to salary ratio. With regards to respect/how easy society makes it for docs---I agree!! But once again, I knew this well before going to PA school and it doesnt bother me much 99% of the time (that 1 % I use some profanities, and then Im over it, haha).

 

My message to PA prospective -- PA is one of the best professions IN THE WORLD! You are rewarded with knowledge to save lives, flexibilty to tailor your life to how you want it, and a salary to live a very respectable lifestyle. "The grass is always greener", until there is a drought!

 

Mike

[PAHopeful00]

Its funny--everyones perspective is soo different depending on your practice location..I do not envy NPs bc everywhere I have worked, PAs were far more utilized

Mike

 

If you don't mind me asking, what areas have you worked as a PA? I am a really collaborative person/worker and so when it comes to choosing where to practice as a PA, I would love for my position to be optimally utilized/respected.

[njsurgpa]

worked in NJ for 5 years, now in NC for 2 yrs. 5.5 years in General/Vasc. Sx, currently in IR

[just_me]

I havent even started my PA education yet but I will say that if making MD momney, having MD "prestige" or having any other MD perk really matter to me I would have gone to med school. I feel very comfortable with my choice and I appreciate the perks or beinga PA more.

 

Could this change down the line? Sure anything could happen...but I dont see it happening.

 

PS I hope this wasnt some lame attempt at trolling....I mean you never even came back to the only other thread you made

[ventana]

YES

 

I am in primary care

 

we do the EXACT same job and I make 50% of what they do

 

I am #3 producer in a 13 doc, 1 NP 1 PA practice and I am the lowest paid.....

[njsurgpa]

HAHA- I hear ya; But to make you feel better, I do 85% of cases that come through, and I make 1/7th of the salary- and thats not an exageration. But again, they do have knowledge and skills (although rarely utilized in the dept) that I do not have...:-)

[SocialMedicine]

very happy being a PA, exciting/challenging. Some days the mobility and in depth education of an MD can be a source of envy .... but not most thats for sure. And if I have an issue with those aspects of the career than I should stop complaining and 1) study more, 2) consider a new position.

[EMEDPA]

the downside is a-hole specialists who want to talk to a doc about your pt even though the doc working with you knows nothing about the pt....happens a few times/yr and it really gets annoying

[andersenpa]

More of an issue where you do the same job (like Ventana says)

In surg specialty the jobs are VERY different.

 

Look at the PA salary surveys for any specialty. There's always a few at the peak of the curve. They either have the skill or negotiating ability to get paid for their value (what they bring to the practice) not just what the docs/practice/facility says they should get paid.

 

If PAs truly got paid for their value you'd see less of them complaining.

[Joelseff]

I like the fact that as a PA I am able to switch specialties with relative ease. I found out (REAL EARLY) that Physiatry is not for me and I am exiting my first job after a LONG month LOL. I plan on looking for ONLY FP/IM jobs, and I am giving up A LOT of money to do this but I was a Realtor during the boom and have long left behind the money buys happiness idea. I just miss my stethoscope SO bad!!!

[ventana]

I like the fact that as a PA I am able to switch specialties with relative ease. I found out (REAL EARLY) that Physiatry is not for me and I am exiting my first job after a LONG month LOL. I plan on looking for ONLY FP/IM jobs, and I am giving up A LOT of money to do this but I was a Realtor during the boom and have long left behind the money buys happiness idea. I just miss my stethoscope SO bad!!!

 

 

 

pay cuts stink...

 

took a 35k/yr pay cut to go back to Primary medicine..... that is more then I made in a year prior to being a PA!

[Joelseff]

pay cuts stink...

 

took a 35k/yr pay cut to go back to Primary medicine..... that is more then I made in a year prior to being a PA!

 

With my incentive and bonus structure, I'm actually leaving about that much on the table if I can judge by the going rate for FP/IM jobs in my area. But the IM pay should suffice....It's nice to have a Corporate Controller for a wife and have no debt but student loans :)

[courtneylafon]

Do PA's make less than a NP? for real?

[EMEDPA]

Do PA's make less than a NP? for real?

NOPE, on avg pa's make more.

[kittryn]

I don't envy docs their liability (and mine! haha...)...but I find have less and less respect for docs as they (some of them, certainly not all) often very thoughtlessly reap enormous rewards from my being there (vastly increased revenue, vastly increased # of OR cases, the fact that they can drop their entire workload in my lap and still make the lions' share of the profits, etc) -- and then they don't seem to have a CLUE how much they are benefitting, and on top of it complain about and challenge me on every single freakin' little element of my compensation (benefits, a few hours of OT, etc). the doc I'm working for now is so disrespectful of me in this regard that I was being called on the carpet by him every month if I did something as AUDACIOUS as putting in for 2-3 hrs OT, or billing for the extra 2 hour evening clinic meeting he scheduled (at the end of my 10 hr day)! he said, "well, we bought you PIZZA...!". good grief. this guy has no clue that my being there is paying for his large home, his kids' private schools, their numerous vacations, his growing practice, and their vacation home. and their cars. not to mention his trophy wife's 10K/mo salary which requires her, seemingly, to answer his numerous sext messages at work. UGH!! I cannot WAIT to be outta there. I need the income, but I pray nightly that they will lay me off so I can collect unemployment while looking for another job. we can't afford for me to just quit without something else lined up (and believe me, I am interviewing!).

[kittryn]

PS the good ones are great. the bad ones suck. BTW, in answer to the question, I don't like being a PA because I do not think we are paid enough to do what we do, I think we are regularly shamed out of thinking we deserve more by the medical profession, and we have never made the effort to organize into a union so that we have the same protections (pension anyone?) as the NPs. that is shame on us, b/c I think we buy into a mentality of the perpetual resident: always say "yes", be the first one there and the last one to leave, be a "team player", never complain, and don't expect anything back no matter how hard you work. we come to think we've done well if we get a little pat on the head.

 

do you realize my "bonus" this past year for the private practice I work for was $250????? unreal. I should have torn it up and walked out.

[andersenpa]

PS the good ones are great. the bad ones suck. BTW, in answer to the question, I don't like being a PA because I do not think we are paid enough to do what we do, I think we are regularly shamed out of thinking we deserve more by the medical profession, and we have never made the effort to organize into a union so that we have the same protections (pension anyone?) as the NPs. that is shame on us, b/c I think we buy into a mentality of the perpetual resident: always say "yes", be the first one there and the last one to leave, be a "team player", never complain, and don't expect anything back no matter how hard you work. we come to think we've done well if we get a little pat on the head.

 

do you realize my "bonus" this past year for the private practice I work for was $250????? unreal. I should have torn it up and walked out.

 

This puts us in a tough spot. I think at this point in the profession we still need strong physician advocates to advance our compensation. It's what I've always done with my raises/etc and it's worked out well. If the docs won't work with you to pay your value then you have to find who will see your side or walk.

 

Unionizing could have a major downside for nonsurgical PAs who could find themselves replaced by NPs.

[kittryn]

This puts us in a tough spot. I think at this point in the profession we still need strong physician advocates to advance our compensation. It's what I've always done with my raises/etc and it's worked out well. If the docs won't work with you to pay your value then you have to find who will see your side or walk.

 

Unionizing could have a major downside for nonsurgical PAs who could find themselves replaced by NPs.

 

please forgive my rant: andersen, do you find that docs do advocate for appropriate PA compensation, regular COL raises, etc? my experience is I've had to advocate for myself, fighting for a good salary and benefits every step of the way. I hate the fact that my doc resents me for the agreement we negotiated together! I have been told by his wife that my ongoing expectation that they honor the contract we made has created "ill will", that "contracts are made to be broken", and that I shouldn't be harping on them honoring the terms of my contract because "the NP isn't getting paid as much as" me(!), as if I did something wrong by successfully negotiating a reasonable salary for myself! I have always been offered an unacceptably low salary when interviewing, and told that "this is what PAs get". I have countered with my own research and gotten better pay, but then had to bear being considered a prima donna.

 

if you have physician advocacy, I think that's awesome. where are you located? I am in the boston area and it is demoralizing to have to fight for ground all the time, especially as I gain expertise and experience. I can run a clinic on my own and do all of the MD's work, yet I am treated as untrustworthy or as if I am trying to "pad my paycheck" when I ask that they honor our agreement. it's sickening.

 

again -- sorry for the rant.

[breger1]

I think this is a great post, I recently struggled with the idea of MD vs. PA. I am a non-traditional student who graduated with a business degree in 2006. I worked for a year and absolutely hated the options available to me. I was also going through a personal transformation of loosing 100 pounds during this time. It's when I decided to return to school and take pre-med courses to apply for med school. I then decided to do a master's degree with a focus on cardiovascular research. I really wanted to understand this part of medicine, and with my interest in health prevention and cardiovascular diseases it was a great fit. I am now finishing up my first year and just started my PA application.

 

I took the MCAT last summer and decided in September of 2010 that the MD career was not a fit for me. I have shadowed a lot of PAs, mostly in cardiology and cardiothoraic surgery. I am extremely confident that the PA is a much better fit for what I hope to accomplish both professionally and personally. I just couldn't see myself doing 4 years of med school followed by 7 of a surgical residency. I value a balanced lifestyle, but am really passionate about work that interests me. As a PA I feel that I can accomplish everything I want to and still earn a good living. It's honestly never been about the money, if it was I would have just gotten my MBA and rubbed elbows with the finance diehards. And if a person can't be happy earning a six-digit income (possible as a surgical PA) than you're never going to be happy. The schedule and on the job stress level is much lower than that of a CT MD. And you still play a very integral part of the healthcare team.

 

Any job is what you make of it, there are always going to be people who complain just for the sake of having something to talk about. If you navigate your education and career moves correctly than everything will work out. Another important reason for selecting PA school was observing how happy PAs are compared to doctors. I also have an interest in the education/preventative side of medicine. As a PA you get more face time and a better opportunity to possibly influence the decisions of your patients. I was never a person who could be happy doing solely one thing. And as a surgical resident, it'd be impossible to pursue other avenues; writing, teaching, etc.