Should we charge?

[chatcat]

I voted that we should be mentors to the folks on the path to becoming a PA...BUT....I have no desire to do so without knowing an applicant and what they bring to the table in terms of qualification. I've mentored folks in real life which has been a pleasure for me as I know them personally and can direct their efforts to highlight their unique qualifications and their motivation for this profession. The majority of statements I have read here on the forum lack originality in content. Quite honestly, I'm baffled by the willingness for applicants to pay for services to assist in their personal statement but more power to those who can market this as a needed service.( I love a good entrepreneur !)

[just_me]

Youre right....I dont know that anyone has (or does not have a problem) with it....I can only go by the simple fact that no one has even bothered to mention it on the borads. In fact no one has bothered to mention anything about charging really until revs post. I don't see anyone raising such a stink about him sooo that tells me enough right there.

 

Its apparent (at least to me) that no one seems to care because of Mr Rodicans status and the fact that he is a published author so its ok for him to do it buuuuuut not ok for rev....and I dont see why thats the case. So its ok for Bobby Flay to charge people for cooking lessons because he's a famous chef but Joe Blow down the street cant (even though hes gone to culinary school) because hes not famous/established?

 

Not sure what published prices has to do with anything either...after all thats between him and his clients.

 

Hey, as long as it's regulated ... but for that matter, how do you know no one has a problem with Mr. Rodican charging exorbitant prices? People can do what they want ... but that doesn't make it right. I'm not saying that charging for editing isn't kosher ... but at least his prices are up front for all to see, as disgusting as they sound to be. I guess that's what irked me most about rev's post in the first place, or at least, what it seemed to be. But if she/he wants to start up an editing business, hey, more power to them!

[fyrelight74]

You know, when I first came on this board, I posted a PS... not for a grammar/spell check, as I know I'm darned good in that area (when I want to be... don't read my text messages) . I posted it because I was trying to figure out what would make ME stand out. We all have a life story, but you wonder what is and is not important to PA schools, even though some details seem important to you. Yes, I had one local person look at my PS, but I wondered if they knew what PA schools would want as much people on this board would. So, is it nice to have a PA student or a PA look over your PS? Yes. Would I have paid for it? Probably not. Would I have come here with a jacked-up PS expecting a rewrite? No. I just wanted advice on what I could probably leave out and what I should concentrate on. Thankfully, at the time, PS postings were allowed, and I had some pretty good feedback, even if some of it was just "Yeah, looks good". I appreciated that.

 

Personally, I think charging should be allowed, but I feel it's a little tacky. Sorry, Rev.

[Hemegroup]

maybe i was just miffed i didn't think of it first lol

[andersenpa]

Youre right....I dont know that anyone has (or does not have a problem) with it....I can only go by the simple fact that no one has even bothered to mention it on the borads. In fact no one has bothered to mention anything about charging really until revs post. I don't see anyone raising such a stink about him sooo that tells me enough right there.

 

Its apparent (at least to me) that no one seems to care because of Mr Rodicans status and the fact that he is a published author so its ok for him to do it buuuuuut not ok for rev....and I dont see why thats the case. So its ok for Bobby Flay to charge people for cooking lessons because he's a famous chef but Joe Blow down the street cant (even though hes gone to culinary school) because hes not famous/established?

 

Not sure what published prices has to do with anything either...after all thats between him and his clients.

 

Rodican pays Banuchi for advertising- that is the main difference here.

[rev ronin]

Rodican pays Banuchi for advertising- that is the main difference here.

So we're agreed that if I return back an appropriate percentage to the site, by whatever contractual means appropriate, everyone will stop griping at me and let me get on with NOT having any paying customers? That would suit me just fine, and that's what I initially proposed to Banuchi several weeks ago.

 

But the other difference is this is (an attempt at) a side gig, not a professional consulting enterprise. I'm not going to front the costs of a website and an ad campaign to try and compete with Rodican--I'm a student, starting my first clinical rotation in five weeks, with limited time to invest in helping PA applicants. If someone else wants to handle the business side of things and actually invest money, I'd be open.

[just_me]

And he has already discussed an arrangement with Banuchi. Granted you didnt know that at first but now you do (post #4 in thi thread) so whats the issue now?

 

Also while that might be your issue, it doesnt seem to be an issue shared with everyone in this thread. Many are commenting on the "right to do it" in general (how "ok" is it to do it)....not simply on this board

 

Rodican pays Banuchi for advertising- that is the main difference here.

[LESH]

BTW isnt there a previous program director that runs a pa applicant prep business/course/program similar to many of the MD applicant programs out there.

I don't know about a former PD, but I know of two PAs that have been doing this for > 10 years. Then there's Dr. Lewis' program that's been around a lot longer http://www.lewisassoc.com/.

[themanpete]

I say charge them, I know about some heated post earlier last year over the posting of PS's. My opinion CHARGE for critiques and editing. I find it appalling that someone would post a PS on here anyways asking for reviews. But Yes Charge Away...

[EMSArtist]

I'm going to throw in my .02$ here and say that when I get to the point of writing my PS, I'll likely engage a professional editor. It's a sensible thing to do provided they haven't placed any restrictions on it. On thing I have learned through years of writing is that you will always make mistakes, and every single thing you write can always be improved with another set of eyes.

 

That said, I will look carefully at any editor's comments/suggestions to make sure that the CONTENT is entirely my own. I'll take comments of form, grammar, and structure. I think editors for this sort of thing have to walk a very fine line.

[just_me]

I knew it was something.....I remember someone posting about the service(s) a while ago

 

I don't know about a former PD, but I know of two PAs that have been doing this for > 10 years. Then there's Dr. Lewis' program that's been around a lot longer http://www.lewisassoc.com/.

[Contrarian]

I know a couple physicians that would only precept if they were being compensated for it. Now is that ethical? Yes. Should someone have a problem with it simply because that physician received free precepting while they were in school. Meh thats up to them. Is it a stupid stance? Maybe but it also keeps people from asking them to precept AND it compensates them for having to take time out of their day to teach...

 

Which brings up a related question...

 

Since most programs operate with a minimal staff of 5-7 PAID personnel and pretty much ALL lecturers and clinical preceptors are VOLUNTEERS....

 

Have all you folks paying $80k +asked... "where the hell is the money going"...?

 

Contrarian

[just_me]

Im trying not to think about it :-(

 

Im comfortable knowing that everyone in my class is receiving the same bill. It would bug the heck out of me to attend an OOS program knowing that we are receiving the same education yet Im paying 3-4 times as much because I live a couple states away

 

Which brings up a related question...

 

Since most programs operate with a minimal staff of 5-7 PAID personnel and pretty much ALL lecturers and clinical preceptors are VOLUNTEERS....

 

Have all you folks paying $80k +asked... "where the hell is the money going"...?

 

Contrarian

[Hemegroup]

Rodican pays Banuchi for advertising- that is the main difference here.

 

Exactly ..........

 

Which brings up a related question...

 

Since most programs operate with a minimal staff of 5-7 PAID personnel and pretty much ALL lecturers and clinical preceptors are VOLUNTEERS....

 

Have all you folks paying $80k +asked... "where the hell is the money going"...?

 

Contrarian

 

 

I have wondered this many times ... my program has about 20 paid staff, so at least that's something ... I for sure didn't hold back from eating pizza when it was made available lol

[andersenpa]

So we're agreed that if I return back an appropriate percentage to the site, by whatever contractual means appropriate, everyone will stop griping at me and let me get on with NOT having any paying customers? That would suit me just fine, and that's what I initially proposed to Banuchi several weeks ago.

 

But the other difference is this is (an attempt at) a side gig, not a professional consulting enterprise. I'm not going to front the costs of a website and an ad campaign to try and compete with Rodican--I'm a student, starting my first clinical rotation in five weeks, with limited time to invest in helping PA applicants. If someone else wants to handle the business side of things and actually invest money, I'd be open.

 

There's 2 issues. The first is that historically there has been a restriction on using the forum to advertise (so banuchi can appropriately get compensated for using his site for advertising).

The second is that we have all benefitted from volunteer precepting in the past. It seems disingenuous to charge for such a thing. Taking it one step further, a PA school applicant should be able to write and edit their own work. Communication is a key skill and we should have some minimum standard for applicants.

 

And yes, I feel the same way about "coaching" services.

[Contrarian]

Taking it one step further, a PA school applicant should be able to write and edit their own work. Communication is a key skill and we should have some minimum standard for applicants.

 

And yes, I feel the same way about "coaching" services.

 

Taking it another step further...

 

If this applicant can't INDEPENDENTLY write and edit a simple Eng 101 esssay... they probably shouldn't be applying for ANY graduate level education... especially those where both written and spoken communication is important...

 

Just another opinion on the internet...

 

Contrarian

[Magicnubs]

Taking it another step further...

 

If this applicant can't INDEPENDENTLY write and edit a simple Eng 101 esssay... they probably shouldn't be applying for ANY graduate level education... especially those where both written and spoken communication is important...

 

Just another opinion on the internet...

 

Contrarian

I agree.

 

I hesitate to call PS assistance unethical, that's a bit strong. I do think in the end though, that it should be written by the student. It's a small form of misrepresentation, but could end up meaning the best and brightest don't get in over those who can pay for as much assistance as they want on their re(accent)sume(accent), which ends up being bad for the future of the profession. Fifty dollars isn't much to some people, but to others it's less than they have left over every semester during undergrad.

[themanpete]

I agree that PS assistance is unethical. Once it is posted on here, then you might like his/her statement better then yours and then take it and make it yours. It point blank enabling plagiarism of personnel statements. Its not right and should not happen unless of course someone is getting paid for it, then it's a service. The one who wanted the helped paid for it, and the site that is used is secure. Well thats business. Rodican got this one right if you ask me.

[rev ronin]

I hesitate to call PS assistance unethical, that's a bit strong. I do think in the end though, that it should be written by the student. It's a small form of misrepresentation...

Stop right there. Show me anywhere that CASPA expects that a personal statement be written without outside help, and I'll never help a Pre-PA with their statement again. If a campus writing lab can help for free, I can help for pay. I know of exactly one career field where giving something away is fine but charging for it is a crime, and I'm not in that business.

[Contrarian]

Poor argument when one considers that there are lot's of things that are unethical or just plan unacceptable that hasn't been codified by "CASPA"...

 

As a matter of fact... CASPA wasn't around when many of us applied and attended our programs... but somehow many of us had a clue as to what is patently questionable ethically.

 

As a Reverend... maybe you should "pray on it"... :heheh:

 

Contrarian

 

Tapatalk via Motorola Xoom

[rev ronin]

Contrarian, I don't think it's so poor an argument: when there are plenty of people offering editing services for pay, it becomes the responsibility of those soliciting and accepting personal statements to identify if such assistance is improper. So expand it beyond CASPA--where does any PA program say any Internet-submitted writing sample must be done without assistance? Again, I expect the rise of in-person, impromptu writing samples has arisen as a reaction against programs getting a slew of great statements from candidates who couldn't possibly have written them themselves. Saying "Thou Shalt Not Be Coached on a writing sample where we have no Earthly way of telling whether you're adhering to this or not" is counterproductive, in that it only limits the options of ethical/compliant students.

 

(We're all agreed that ghost-writing a statement for someone else is improper so there's no need to go into it, yes?)

[Acebecker]

I want to qualify my vote: I voted that we should not charge Pre-PAs because we are a community and need to help each other out. However, I think that editing personal statements is a bit different. I have personally never asked anyone (besides my wife) to review my personal statement and I doubt I will ever read/review another Pre-PAs personal statement. I didn't ask anyone else because it was supposed to be MY statement and thus individualized to emphasize what I see/saw as important. I won't review personal statements because, well, it'll turn someone else's statement into a, "Here's what Andrew thinks," and "This is what schools want to hear" statement.

 

But I will gladly give other Pre-PAs advice on things like courses to take, GPAs, HCE, etc.... for free because I once needed that help and encouragement, too. What would the world be without our mentors?

 

Andrew

[Firemedic13]

I believe that having someone look over a PS for grammar, style, word choice, flow, and theme is actually the responsible thing to do. Even english majors can make mistakes in any of these areas. Sometimes things that make sense in our head when we write and re-read them don't necessarily make sense to a reader. This is why editors exist. Even Hemingway, King, and Grisham need/needed editors to go over their stuff after they write it. Writing is not a science, but an art.

 

You guys really think that someone could steal a well written PS and use it? They couldn't take mine... I know that. How many other paramedic firefighters with a daughter shadowing a specific PA in New Mexico are there? If someone took mine... the adcomms would know! They aren't stupid.

 

I agree that we shouldn't write PSs for people. But to go over a PS and say: "I am not sure you want to say this, it sounds like blah blah blah..." or "This sentence needs to be re-written, you use too many commas. Make it two sentences." or "This middle paragraph is actually stronger than your opening. Maybe start with that?".... well, that strikes me as helpful, as mentoring... as being good to your fellow future PAs. Especially since so many pre-PAs are science majors who struggled through english 101 and 102.

 

 

ETA: The point of a PS is not to test the applicant. This isn't an english test. It is a way for the adcomm to get to know you, to know your story. The average PA isn't going to write papers or articles. They are going to treat patients. I could care less how my PA's application essay was! It could have been sent in on cardboard written in crayon for all I care. As long as they know what is wrong with me and how to treat it, I'm ecstatic!

 

Stop thinking of the essay as a test, but rather as a way for someone to put their best foot forward. Would you charge them to tell them how to dress to an interview? Would you charge them for telling them how to shake hands properly? No. So why charge them for this?

[andersenpa]

ETA: The point of a PS is not to test the applicant. This isn't an english test. It is a way for the adcomm to get to know you, to know your story. The average PA isn't going to write papers or articles. They are going to treat patients. I could care less how my PA's application essay was! It could have been sent in on cardboard written in crayon for all I care.

 

If this is true, then why place such an emphasis on the essay such that it needs "professional" editing/coaching?

MS Word has advanced functions to check spelling and grammar. As long as these are adequate, and the PS is meant to show the applicant as an individual, then why does it need any more primping and preening?

[rev ronin]

Surely that's a rhetorical question, Andersen? Serious applicants fret over every aspect of their admissions process--just look at the plethora of threads over the past few years about LORs, interview dress, thank you notes, what to retake when, how to best improve a GPA, GRE scores, which kind of HCE is best... Actually, I better either quit now or just start pulling thread subject titles from the Pre-PA section. :-)

 

Everyone serious about the admissions process wants to put their best everything forward. Some applicants come here asking for help on one or two things, some come here asking for help with virtually everything. Of course, there are the silent and competent ones who just search, read, and take away from what has already been asked and answered here.