Should we charge?

[Contrarian]

 

ETA: The point of a PS is not to test the applicant. This isn't an english test. It is a way for the adcomm to get to know you, to know your story. The average PA isn't going to write papers or articles. They are going to treat patients. I could care less how my PA's application essay was! It could have been sent in on cardboard written in crayon for all I care. As long as they know what is wrong with me and how to treat it, I'm ecstatic!

 

Stop thinking of the essay as a test, but rather as a way for someone to put their best foot forward. Would you charge them to tell them how to dress to an interview? Would you charge them for telling them how to shake hands properly? No. So why charge them for this?

 

I just wish I had this much insight into the inner-workings of the individual and collective thoughts/minds of each person on the Admission Committee when I thought about becoming a PA. You sound like YOU really, really know what you are talking about...

 

Please tell us what PA Admission Committees YOU sit/sat on.... and detail your yrs of experience weeding in or out applicants to PA programs...

 

Because as a NON-pre-PA, PA-S, PA-C, but aspiring attorney... YOU seem to know or at least suggest definitively why PA program adcomms (Primarily Licensed PA-Cs like me and others on here) do what they do and what their intended purposes are.

 

Do tell... because I'd really like for YOU to tell me what I'm thinking when I read personal statements from PA school applicants... :wink:

 

When you are done... even though I have never applied to, attended, or sat on the adcomm of any Law School, I'll go on over to the pre-law, law school student, and law school grad forums and tell them what Law School Admission Committtees are looking for in law school applicants at every school and what the REAL purpose of the Law School Personal Statement, Interview and LSAT is.... :heheh:

 

Thanks,

 

Contrarian

[andersenpa]

Surely that's a rhetorical question, Andersen? Serious applicants fret over every aspect of their admissions process--just look at the plethora of threads over the past few years about LORs, interview dress, thank you notes, what to retake when, how to best improve a GPA, GRE scores, which kind of HCE is best... Actually, I better either quit now or just start pulling thread subject titles from the Pre-PA section. :-)

 

And every one of those things were fretted over by thousands of PA school applicants that have come before. When I and many of my other Pa colleagues applied, we just did it. We found out the application requirements and met them. There was a PS required and we wrote it. There was an interview and I wore a suit (how we figured out how to wear a suit to a professional interview in the days before the internet was quite an accomplishment). When we had questions about the program, we....get ready for it......called the program to find out (not posting an anonymous forum thread about "Will Skippyville College accept my prereqs?"). We needed HCA experience in patient care and got HCE in patient care.

 

Don't get me wrong, the forum is a good resource... but it is overutilized to the Nth degree about every minute detail of the application process, turning that process into (IMO) more than it is.

 

Everyone serious about the admissions process wants to put their best everything forward. Some applicants come here asking for help on one or two things, some come here asking for help with virtually everything. Of course, there are the silent and competent ones who just search, read, and take away from what has already been asked and answered here.

 

The previous post was about how the PS is NOT and english test, NOT a test of the applicant, but meant to be a representative of the applicant. Your own work should be your own work. If you're applying to PA school you are likely a college grad or about to be and has taken basic liberal arts courses including English 101. I don't mean to belabor the point but why an applicant to a professional program can't write and edit their own essay is astounding.

[just_me]

If someone reads over my essay and points out spelling errors and grammatical errors (which we ALL make....heck even textbooks can have errors) does that make it any less of my paper and more of theirs?

 

If its all still my words just arranged "better" is it no longer MY paper?

 

What is the difference between me taking a paper to a free writing lab on campus and paying rev, Rodican or anyone else for that matter to do essentially the same thing?

 

Is it less of my paper because I paid someone to edit it as opposed to having it done for free by the writing lab or a friend?

[rev ronin]

When I and many of my other Pa colleagues applied, we just did it. We found out the application requirements and met them. There was a PS required and we wrote it. There was an interview and I wore a suit [...]. When we had questions about the program, we....get ready for it......called the program to find out [...]. We needed HCA experience in patient care and got HCE in patient care.

 

I did that the first year I applied. Guess what? I didn't get in. I found this forum and kicked myself for the mistakes I'd made, the things I'd not done. I read up on the nuances of getting in while I continued to work on the basics: GPA and HCE. I got in the second time around, even though between the 2008-9 and 2009-10 application season the profession got more popular and admissions got more competitive. I'll never know what percentage of me getting into PA school the second time around was due to polishing my application, and how much was due to my numbers getting better. I can tell you that there was no part of the application process that I didn't do my best on the second time around, and I attribute no small part of my success to the advice gained right here in these forums.

 

Gone are the days when you "just apply" to a PA program and get in. I'd love to hear about someone who did it that way this cycle and got in first time around. Maybe those days will come back someday, but in a world where the profession is attracting so many more applicants than spots, the ethical way to get into PA school is to stand out from your co-applicants in every way possible. Sure, a personal statement could be exclusively one's own work, but as much as that demonstrates independent competence, pursuing and adopting good advice demonstrates the ability to seek and integrate feedback. Are both important to a PA? You betcha!

[Contrarian]

I attribute no small part of my success to the advice gained right here in these forums.

That YOU got here for F-r-e-e right...???

 

Gone are the days when you "just apply" to a PA program and get in. [This is a REALLY bold and unsubstantiated statement..!!!!] I'd love to hear about someone who did it that way this cycle and got in first time around. Maybe those days will come back someday, but in a world where the profession is attracting so many more applicants than spots, [Ha....ha... I learned about this career field in 1987 as a Army Medic... and guess what... 'the profession was attracting so many more applicants than spots' as there were less than 40 PA programs then...] the ethical way to get into PA school is to stand out from your co-applicants in every way possible. Sure, a personal statement could be exclusively one's own work, but as much as that demonstrates independent competence, pursuing and adopting good advice demonstrates the ability to seek and integrate feedback. Are both important to a PA? You betcha!

 

Sounds like a advertising blurb... :heheh:

[Firemedic13]

I just wish I had this much insight into the inner-workings of the individual and collective thoughts/minds of each person on the Admission Committee when I thought about becoming a PA. You sound like YOU really, really know what you are talking about...

 

Please tell us what PA Admission Committees YOU sit/sat on.... and detail your yrs of experience weeding in or out applicants to PA programs...

 

Because as a NON-pre-PA, PA-S, PA-C, but aspiring attorney... YOU seem to know or at least suggest definitively why PA program adcomms (Primarily Licensed PA-Cs like me and others on here) do what they do and what their intended purposes are.

 

Do tell... because I'd really like for YOU to tell me what I'm thinking when I read personal statements from PA school applicants... :wink:

 

When you are done... even though I have never applied to, attended, or sat on the adcomm of any Law School, I'll go on over to the pre-law, law school student, and law school grad forums and tell them what Law School Admission Committtees are looking for in law school applicants at every school and what the REAL purpose of the Law School Personal Statement, Interview and LSAT is.... :heheh:

 

Thanks,

 

Contrarian

 

 

Do you not want me in here because I make good points, or because you are just grumpy? :xD: Your points are ALL red herrings. They have nothing to do with what I said. Just because I haven't sat on a adcomm doesn't mean I don't have an idea of what they are looking for. As to your second point, re: going to law school forums:

 

I learned about law school admissions the same way I learned about PA school admissions when I was interested in doing that: By reading on forums, reading articles about the process, interviews with adcomms, and from the wisdom of the various PAs I met in person and online. Including you, who I have argued with before this (which is why I wasn't at all surprised by the red herring, for instance). And you could totally go into a law school forum and tell us, because frankly, you are suspicious and cynical enough to know exactly what all those are for.:xD:

 

Instead of claiming I lack the expertise to determine what adcomms are looking for, why don't you actually refute any of my points by telling me how I was wrong about them?

 

Is the PS a test of english writing? Is it graded? Is it there to give an idea of what the applicant is like, is it an objective measure of applicant quality?

 

Or, as I suggested, is it a way to introduce an applicant and their motivation for becoming a PA?

 

 

Oh, and @ anderson: Given how competitive PA admissions are these days, re: more difficult to get into than medical school, is it any surprise that a candidate would feel (rightly, IMO) that spell-checker and grammar-checker aren't enough? Have you seen some of the essays people put on here back in the day? Some of them were awful! Yet I bet that a lot of those candidates would have/did become fine PAs if the adcomms hadn't chucked their app in the wastebasket when they saw they couldn't put a good essay together. They have 30 other applicants for the same spot, after all.

[rev ronin]

That YOU got here for F-r-e-e right...???

Yep. Don't forget: if the forum rules against posting PS'es here for critique are lifted, I'll be happy to resume taking apart (and rebuilding, of course) personal statements in public. If one person is willing to bare their work and have it be deconstructed for the benefit of everyone able to read the thread, I'm there. It's only when I'd be working for just one person, rather than giving back to the community, that I will charge. I'd much rather keep PS reviews on the forum than be forced to do it in private.

[marilynpac]

Let's hope the ban stays in place....

[vaston]

Gone are the days when you "just apply" to a PA program and get in. I'd love to hear about someone who did it that way this cycle and got in first time around. Maybe those days will come back someday, but in a world where the profession is attracting so many more applicants than spots, the ethical way to get into PA school is to stand out from your co-applicants in every way possible.

 

When I applied I had never heard of Rodican OR this forum. I didn't go searching around the internet for advice. I made a list of schools that I was interested in attending and I matched my classes/grades/resume/application to their requirements. I wrote my PS from my heart, had it edited by (2) specific people (as previously mentioned) for grammar and punctuation, but not content. I then applied to those schools and was accepted to each of the schools that I interviewed at during my very first application cycle. I had worked for a long time previous to this so I knew how to handle myself in an interview. I even knew how to dress for one (gasp). I am a current student, so my experience was as recent as yours. I don't know why I stood out, but I can look you in the eye and tell you I never needed anyone on this board.

 

So there you go, a recent example of 'just apply'ing to PA school.

[Guest guthriesm]

In my completely unbiased, anecdotal opinion, people post PS for the following reasons:

1. They are scared that they haven't done a good job (I was in this category)

2. They aren't undergrads and have no college writing center (I was also in this category)

3. They have already had every loved one and neighbor read it - more than once (yup did this one too)

4. They have no clue and have never written a paper before

5. They think that someone on this forum will re-write their garbage into something legible

 

I do not think the FORUM is the right place to charge for PS. I also am fine with it being a banned practice. I think if individuals wish to offer their time (for free or compensation) it is not unethical and can be conducted outside of the forum. If PS are reviewed on the forum, it should be free because this is a community that shares great information and ideas. I appreciate the forum and what I have gotten out of it which is why I return and answer questions others ask.

 

No one on an adcomm should be reviewing PS at all - in the Forum, for free, or for pay - that would be unethical; but a random person who is comfortable with their skills in writing should be welcome to start a side business or volunteer.

 

--- oh and thanks to the people who replied to my essay - I liked having a few people tell me it didn't suck. :-)

[bosox2k1]

Charge? No. If you don't want to help, don't help. Nobody is twisting anybody's arm.

[andersenpa]

In my completely unbiased, anecdotal opinion, people post PS for the following reasons:

1. They are scared that they haven't done a good job (I was in this category)

2. They aren't undergrads and have no college writing center (I was also in this category)

3. They have already had every loved one and neighbor read it - more than once (yup did this one too)

4. They have no clue and have never written a paper before

5. They think that someone on this forum will re-write their garbage into something legible

 

I do not think the FORUM is the right place to charge for PS. I also am fine with it being a banned practice. I think if individuals wish to offer their time (for free or compensation) it is not unethical and can be conducted outside of the forum. If PS are reviewed on the forum, it should be free because this is a community that shares great information and ideas. I appreciate the forum and what I have gotten out of it which is why I return and answer questions others ask.

 

No one on an adcomm should be reviewing PS at all - in the Forum, for free, or for pay - that would be unethical; but a random person who is comfortable with their skills in writing should be welcome to start a side business or volunteer.

 

--- oh and thanks to the people who replied to my essay - I liked having a few people tell me it didn't suck. :-)

 

What percentage of PA school applicants have no experience writing a paper or no undergrad career?

[Contrarian]

Isn't English 101 and/or 102 a minimum pre-req at pretty much ALL PA programs...??

Even Associate Degree and Certificate programs...

[rev ronin]

I don't know about everyone else, but nothing in my required English classes (one composition, one literature) helped me write well. I learned to write well by a combination reading stunningly good prose, graduate school, one one-day writing clearly seminar, and applying those experiences in the business world for 15 years. In fact, I daresay the rigid, straitjacketed approach to writing taught in my freshman comp class wasn't better than most of the PS'es I saw here. I was taught the mechanics of writing in high school; college didn't amp anything up at all.

 

Your experience may well have been different, Contrarian. Actually, I *hope* it was different.

[just_me]

ummm and nobody is twisting their arm to pay for services so whats your point

 

Charge? No. If you don't want to help, don't help. Nobody is twisting anybody's arm.

[andersenpa]

I don't know about everyone else, but nothing in my required English classes (one composition, one literature) helped me write well. I learned to write well by a combination reading stunningly good prose, graduate school, one one-day writing clearly seminar, and applying those experiences in the business world for 15 years. In fact, I daresay the rigid, straitjacketed approach to writing taught in my freshman comp class wasn't better than most of the PS'es I saw here. I was taught the mechanics of writing in high school; college didn't amp anything up at all.

 

Your experience may well have been different, Contrarian. Actually, I *hope* it was different.

 

Give me a break. Sorry, but now you sound like you're reaching to justify and argument.

Most applicants have completed undergrad or at least the general ed component. That means they have 2 semesters college english as well as high school. That's what I had as a sciences major, it's what most of us had. This and a few functioning neurons is more than adequate to teach you to write a basic essay.

[rev ronin]

I think we fundamentally disagree about the importance of presenting the best application possible and the role of outside assistance in accomplishing this. I'm OK with not being able to convince you, but I don't see the point of going back and forth further, so I think I'm going to bow out of this thread.

[bosox2k1]

ummm and nobody is twisting their arm to pay for services so whats your point

If they have to pay to get your services, then yea you are...

[crystaltide]

I am fundamentally against people paying for help with their applications because it gives them an advantage that those without the extra money do not have.

 

In the end, though, if people are being judged on how well-written their personal statements are instead of their content, then I feel the ACTUAL problem is with admissions committees not the people who have perceived this and done what they need to to get in to PA school.

 

Still, the reason I chose the PA profession was 1) I wanted to practice medicine, 2) the community. The difference between PAs, pre- or -C, and other health professions is the community. I like that I can come to this forum and give and get help for free because that's the way we are here. Charging for help getting into PA school on this site seems to go against that.

[Guest guthriesm]

My one writing class (which was over 10 years ago as a freshman) involved writing a pamphlet, writing a paper with APA citation and writing a paper using regular citation.

 

Nothing about to convince an admission's committee to take me into their school.

[Hemegroup]

My one writing class (which was over 10 years ago as a freshman) involved writing a pamphlet, writing a paper with APA citation and writing a paper using regular citation.

 

Nothing about to convince an admission's committee to take me into their school.

 

I see, so other than your one writing class, you never had to write papers with introductions, bodies, and conclusions (hmmm, microbiology, anyone? psychology? etc?), and have never read a book, newspaper, or magazine, or written a letter, so that you would have had absolutely no way to know how to write a one to two page essay on your path to becoming a PA.

 

I do give credibility to your not having access to a campus writing lab ... that would be a different sort of situation, because anyone would be daft to have not had an admissions essay reviewed by someone with some know-how even if it were only for punctuation errors.

[andersenpa]

My one writing class (which was over 10 years ago as a freshman) involved writing a pamphlet, writing a paper with APA citation and writing a paper using regular citation.

 

Nothing about to convince an admission's committee to take me into their school.

 

You're not expeted to write a cited peer reviewed article. It's a basic essay format with correct grammar and spelling. Any HS graduate should be able to write the "introduction-body-conclusion" format. If that basic writing skill requirement can't fulfill the PS portion of the application then maybe that applicant doesn't have the fundamental general education to enter a professional program.

[just_me]

so BK, McDonalds or Wendys twisting your arm to buy their burger when you can just make it home for free?

 

Ruths Chris twisting your arm to pay 40 bucks for a steak when you can just make it at home yourself for free?

 

the people who charge to come around and pick up dog crap are twisting your arm when you can do it yourself for free?

 

local car wash twisting your arm when you can wash your car yourself for free?

 

theres other examples but Im sure you get the point. nobody is twisting your arm telling anyone that they HAVE to use any service to edit their paper its THEIR choice whether they want to pay or not.....so I dont see any arm twisting going on.....if you dont want to pay, find a free service....plain and simple OR just do it yourself....even easier.

 

If they have to pay to get your services, then yea you are...

[EMSArtist]

It's a basic essay format with correct grammar and spelling.

 

Anderson man... you might be surprised. I the last writing course I had (2 years ago?) we were required to write 4 short essays, 1 7pg research paper, and a 20 page collection of various types of writing. Several students who PASSED the course were unable to string together a coherent paragraph without serious help.

 

 

Any HS graduate should be able to write the "introduction-body-conclusion" format.

 

It looks like teaching simple things like the proper format for an essay has been abandoned recently. Maybe it got lost in the preparation for standardized tests or maybe schools just suck that bad. Whatever the reason most sophomores in my school can't write above an 8th grade level.

 

If that basic writing skill requirement can't fulfill the PS portion of the application then maybe that applicant doesn't have the fundamental general education to enter a professional program.

 

I talked to the professor at length about the low standards and why students were passing the course who were obviously unable to write, and what he told me shocked me. He said that the people passing the course with what I thought were barely adequate papers were actually well above average.

 

 

 

** note I tried to look for examples of writing sent for peer review, but I must have deleted the really terrible ones :(

[Guest guthriesm]

I see, so other than your one writing class, you never had to write papers with introductions, bodies, and conclusions (hmmm, microbiology, anyone? psychology? etc?), and have never read a book, newspaper, or magazine, or written a letter, so that you would have had absolutely no way to know how to write a one to two page essay on your path to becoming a PA.

 

I do give credibility to your not having access to a campus writing lab ... that would be a different sort of situation, because anyone would be daft to have not had an admissions essay reviewed by someone with some know-how even if it were only for punctuation errors.

 

Nope- I haven't written the traditional paper since graduating high school. I have a laboratory degree so I took advanced microbiology, immunohematology, etc - some lab reports but nothing about basic "introduction, body, conclusion". I did write a paper for the psych class but it was a 2 page research paper on anorexia and didn't really reflect in what a personal narrative should entail.

 

I also had about 6 people re-read my essay multiple times. The concern I had- none of those people had ever applied to PA school so I couldn't be confident they could tell me much beyond "this makes no sense and your grammar is awful".

 

The challenge with writing a PS - it has to be personal. It opens up the candidate to the admission's committee eyes. It didn't feel like any kind of paper I've ever written (except maybe my essay for college as a senior?) because I couldn't open a book and cite a source. As someone who really wanted to be in school, I knew a ton was riding on the essay.

 

 

It looks like teaching simple things like the proper format for an essay has been abandoned recently. Maybe it got lost in the preparation for standardized tests or maybe schools just suck that bad. Whatever the reason most sophomores in my school can't write above an 8th grade level.

 

Very true- I just talked to a friend last night that told me her daughter in middle school had yet to do any kind of real writing- it is all based on standardized tests because that is the only way schools are evaluated and offered money to pay for the programs.