Should we charge?

[rcdavis]

Under another thread, a pre-PA asked if one of us would review his PS for comments, and editing.

 

I remember 3-4 years ago when this started, and we all did one once in awhile.. Then we debated the ethics of doing them at all.. And came to a draw.

 

Well, the question of not only doing them, but charging for that service came to my mind today, raised by andersen's question rev ronin 's inquiry to the posting PrePA as to whether that PrePA wanted to "retain" revronins service

 

For the sake of argument: should we or not charge pre PA s to comment on, edit, help with personal statements?

 

Should we make a new section which lists "services available for cost" and let students pre PA folks seek PA statement advise if they are willing to pay some sorta fee?

 

NOTE: the issue of fairness to banucci should be tabled for a minute ( I feel we should debate the ethics of the issue first, THEN Decide how to compensate mike for any profit made utilizing his forum to make that profit)...

 

NOTE: If it IS ethical ( and I am not sure), then it could become a sponsor just like AJ RODICAM is above, who is making a ton of money doing what we do here free.

[just_me]

didnt vote because Im not really sure where I stand. i dont think charging for opinions/advice on "hey do you think I have a shot" or "what degree should I get" is a good idea, but Im not really opposed to someone paying for editing services as long as it its not WRITING/CREATION services

 

the ethical issue I have with helping anyone with a PS is when it gets to the point where youre telling them what to say----its one thing to point out grammatical/spelling errors and another to tell a person what to say

[Just Steve]

I wrote this lengthy reply and then came back to read your question and realized I failed to answer it.

 

No, I don't think we should charge. My reason is that I think we should not perform those services via an on line setting. I think the Pre PA student needs to groom their application by performing face to face communication with the PAs they work with and shadow. If we perform grooming services then the Pre PA gets a huge benefit from current PAs and PA students by doing nothing but sitting at a keyboard. Face to face communication is a HUGE part of the practice of medicine and getting their ducks in a row is a great place to practice the art of communication.

[rev ronin]

As the one who offered, I'll say yes and justify my reasoning.

 

1) Existing commercial services do this. Having talked to our host about it, he's offered to sell me space to formally promote such a service as an advertiser. If I can actually make money doing this, I'll be doing precisely that: driving money back into the site. If someone wants to front a poor PA student the money to actually design such a professional services site, I have a Linux web server... just no time to brush up on web site programming nor the artistic talent to make it look cool.

2) Schools are relying more-and-more on in-person writing samples. That is, schools are aware that some applicants are using formal services, and are taking measures to reduce the influence professional writing services have on applicant outcomes. What is also clear from this is that formal writing assistance is not prohibited, nor are they likely to be prohibited in the future. Such a restriction would be hard to enforce, and there's only one thing I can think of that you're allowed to receive for free, but prohibited for paying for it.

3) When I invested time reviewing an essay previously, I did so for the greater good. While the poor/brave/whatever applicant who'd posted their essay got the most direct feedback, the advice was free to all and for the benefit of anyone who had the forethought and diligence to read back through the relevant sub-folder. I haven't ceased being willing to help out applicants, because I believe it's an appropriate way to give back or "pay forward" the benefits I received from this site. Having said that, my time isn't free. I get paid $25/h to teach EMT classes as a part-time gig, so it does not make economic sense for me (or anyone) to benefit one other person for zero compensation. In my previous career, I gave advice that people ignored for a much higher hourly rate, and post-graduation, I expect to also be paid for giving advice that people will ignore. If I'm going to take time away from my family and studies to help just one person at a time, I will be paid for it: I'm not opposed to helping people for free, but given that my time is a finite resource, charging for it is a good way to limit its use to people who genuinely care.

[echin3]

agree with rev. also, a certain PA who wrote a certain book seems to believe it's alright to charge to "personally review and edit one essay" and "return your essay 'CASPA-ready!'" for a fee.

[marilynpac]

Ok she came to me first privately, I told her I don't do them and that's true. It's not b/c I don't want to, it's that mine was so bad it was a miracle I got an interview with it. I referred her to you Rev knowing you have done them in the past. I also gave her some of your tips that I've read before. Personal statements don't belong on a public forum but putting up a thread asking if someone will look at them privately should not be a problem and no charge should be allowed...at least not through the forum. If anyone wants to start their own businesses using their own website..that's up to them. I voted #1 for the reason stated...if you don't want to mentor and help others you also have that choice and you can use the forum for personal info, many people do. However there are many of us that do give advice based on our personal experiences and that should be free of charge...IMHO.

[just_me]

echin3 I must say I giggled a little because that certain PAs advertisement is attached to your post on my screen lol

[just_me]

I refer out to Heme, Rev and others because I don't them either...mainly because I have read some so bad that I simply wanted to re-write them and wheres the fairness in that?

 

Ok she came to me first privately, I told her I don't do them and that's true. It's not b/c I don't want to, it's that mine was so bad it was a miracle I got an interview with it. I referred her to you Rev knowing you have done them in the past. I also gave her some of your tips that I've read before. Personal statements don't belong on a public forum but putting up a thread asking if someone will look at them privately should not be a problem and no charge should be allowed...at least not through the forum. If anyone wants to start their own businesses using their own website..that's up to them. I voted #1 for the reason stated...if you don't want to mentor and help others you also have that choice and you can use the forum for personal info, many people do. However there are many of us that do give advice based on our personal experiences and that should be free of charge...IMHO.

[echin3]

echin3 I must say I giggled a little because that certain PAs advertisement is attached to your post on my screen lol

 

:). glad you liked it, just_me

[EMEDPA]

I'm ok with proofreading for free but I really don't think we should be writing folks statements for them. that's why it's called a "personal statement" and not a consensus statement.

[bradtPA]

Part of the application process is writing a coherent personal statement, which IMHO should be written entirely by the applicant. I would not take their GRE for them, neither will I write their personal statement. They will need strong enough language skills to learn and express themselves in the new language of Medicine, and that written statement written poorly could be a red flag....

[rev ronin]

I'm ok with proofreading for free but I really don't think we should be writing folks statements for them. that's why it's called a "personal statement" and not a consensus statement.

 

Which I wouldn't do anyways. There's a difference between editing and ghostwriting. I've used both, I've done both, and I'm offering editing assistance, not ghostwriting . The point of editing is to help people bring out the best in what they bring to you. As those whom I've worked with before can attest, lots of my feedback involves "tell me more about this" or "this seems too long for the points you're trying to make" or "I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here". The content and its disposition remains with the applicant; all I ever do is help them rearrange the pieces they bring to the table.

 

Part of the application process is writing a coherent personal statement, which IMHO should be written entirely by the applicant. I would not take their GRE for them, neither will I write their personal statement. They will need strong enough language skills to learn and express themselves in the new language of Medicine, and that written statement written poorly could be a red flag....

 

There's a big difference between a GRE and a personal statement. The GRE is controlled, both in setting and content, such that every applicant gets a fair shake at it for a relatively high monetary cost. Personal statements are entirely open-ended, unregulated, and come at no cost to the applicant beyond CASPA. There's no fairness built into the process, nor is there any restriction on seeking outside help. Again, there's nothing that prevents outside help, either paid or volunteer, which is why I believe so many different programs are considering in-person writing samples, which approach the control of setting and content of the GRE.

 

But given that we live in an imperfect world, I'll be happy to be hired help for the personal statement. I don't expect everyone else to endorse the idea enthusiastically, but I would appreciate the continued ability to offer my services for a fee through the site, and in turn help support its existence. If I'm prohibited from offering such services by our host's decision, I'll abide by the ruling just like I've ceased to review statements in public per the decisions of the moderators here. I think that such a decision would be inconsistent with the latitude afforded Mr. Rodican and the site's ad-supported nature, but I wouldn't stop participating in such a worthwhile community because of such a decision--it'd just be one less opportunity for me to help pre-PAs, make a bit of money to offset my time, and support this site.

[vaston]

I don't mean to be aggressive, but there is no way in hell I would PAY some random internet person to edit/cowrite my personal statement when their only "credential" is acceptance to PA School. So you got in, great. My personal statement was written by me, reviewed for grammar and punctuation by a personal friend that is a technical writer by degree/trade and proof read by my wife that is a copywriter. They have the writing credentials, I don't. I wouldn't dare say that I do simply because I got in to PA school. So my question to anyone that wants to be paid for this: What makes qualifies you to charge for this service? Please tell me something more than "I write really well". Being a PA/PA-s doesn't not automatically = qualified.

[rcdavis]

I don't mean to be aggressive, but there is no way in hell I would PAY some random internet person to edit/cowrite my personal statement when their only "credential" is acceptance to PA School. So you got in, great. My personal statement was written by me, reviewed for grammar and punctuation by a personal friend that is a technical writer by degree/trade and proof read by my wife that is a copywriter. They have the writing credentials, I don't. I wouldn't dare say that I do simply because I got in to PA school. So my question to anyone that wants to be paid for this: What makes qualifies you to charge for this service? Please tell me something more than "I write really well". Being a PA/PA-s doesn't not automatically = qualified.

 

Take a close look at the ad next to your posting.

 

His only credentials are being accepted to and graduating from a PA school.

 

The distinction is that, like you, I would never have bought that book. But many other, trying to check as many sources as they can while entering unfamiliar territory, would and have bought it.. Making rodican a pretty wealthy fellow.

 

I am on the sidelines here, but I would suggest rev's credentials are simply his willingness to do the job, and to be one step up on the academic ladder than the applicant. Let the buyer beware.

 

But what is your opinion about the IDEA, the force behind the question: should we do it? And should we do it ' here' on this site?

[Firemedic13]

Ethical? Yes.

 

Good idea? IMO, no. First off, I doubt you would make any real money once people realized you weren't going to actually write their PS for them. Secondly, this site exists to let PAs, PA-Ss, and Pre-PAs interact with one another. This could possibly include working on PSs. If you don't want to help out with that, just don't. Third, this is awful PR. If I came on this site as a Pre-PA and saw that people were charging to go over my PS I would start wondering what kind of group of people I am associating with. Fourth: excepting a few english/history/etc. majors on here, most of the people were science majors and aren't necessarily the people I would choose to help with a PS. Schools have free sources of help for exactly this sort of thing.

 

Lastly, this is a pay it forward sort of thing. I go over PSs at the law school forums because someone else did the same for me. If someone didn't do it for you, don't do it for them. You don't want to do it, fine, don't do it. But charging for it looks crass in my opinion, and probably won't work except as a way to discourage others from asking. In fact, frankly, it will just mean that someone else will probably start a pre-PA forum for people to go to and work for free on it, further reducing the traffic on this site. Either that or they'll just PM each other and cut you guys totally out of the loop.

[vaston]

Take a close look at the ad next to your posting.

 

His only credentials are being accepted to and graduating from a PA school.

 

The distinction is that, like you, I would never have bought that book. But many other, trying to check as many sources as they can while entering unfamiliar territory, would and have bought it.. Making rodican a pretty wealthy fellow.

 

I am on the sidelines here, but I would suggest rev's credentials are simply his willingness to do the job, and to be one step up on the academic ladder than the applicant. Let the buyer beware.

 

But what is your opinion about the IDEA, the force behind the question: should we do it? And should we do it ' here' on this site?

 

I can't see the ad next to my post because I use adblock on my browser. None of those ads show up on my screen, it's the single best browser add-on IMO. Based on my post you can guess I would not have put that ad there purposefully.

 

I guess I don't see willingness to do the job as a qualification. I don't see acceptance to PA School as a qualification. When I first joined this forum I actually posted on some of those threads. Then I realized that I did not have the skills that those people required. I stopped posting. I didn't like the thought that one of my suggestions could actually keep someone out of PA school.

 

I didn't know about Rodican until I had been in my program for 6 months. I would not have purchased his book either. He is making his living, so be it. Maybe he has spent extensive time with many adcoms from different programs to get an overall view of what they are looking for. That would be considered a good qualification. I don't know.

 

As far as the academic ladder goes, I'm in a Master's program. My wife has her Bachelors. She is by far a better writer than me due to her extensive training, it's that simple.

 

No, I don't believe we should do it. I don't believe we should do it publicly on this site. To wrap it all together, I don't think we are automatically qualified to do it. Take it with a grain of salt I suppose. I don't think you should be advertising yourself as having editing/writing skills without backing it up with something. Again, this is how I see the world. I understand that not everyone feels that way. You have that right.

[Hemegroup]

If you want to charge, do it through a standardized site. There are legal issues here ... what if the site got sued, because of poor editing and review of an essay, or from not getting accepted? No offense, rev, you're as good a writer as some others here, but I find your attempt a bit smarmy considering this isn't your website. Additionally, I see this as part of the scope of our field ... those we shadow don't get reimbursed, nor do our Preceptors. To hold yourself so high and mighty as to your time ... I'm a bit repulsed, to be honest.

 

I'm fine with proofreading, even a suggestion or two. But if an essay needs a great deal of work, they should first take it to their campus writing lab.

[just_me]

While some might feel their time is more or less precious than others....essentially it is up to THAT person to dictate how much thier time is worth. I know a couple physicians that would only precept if they were being compensated for it. Now is that ethical? Yes. Should someone have a problem with it simply because that physician received free precepting while they were in school. Meh thats up to them. Is it a stupid stance? Maybe but it also keeps people from asking them to precept AND it compensates them for having to take time out of their day to teach. Fact of the matter is a person dictates how much thier time is worth and its up to the consumer to decide if the services are worth the fee. Complaining about that is akin to a person who doesnt eat meat complaing to Longhorn that they charge way too much for their steaks---youre not in the market for it so what do you care?

 

Why pay a physician when you can go to a free clinic? Why pay a private tutor when you can use the free tutors on campus? Why pay someone to personally edit your paper when you can simply visit the campus lab? Everyone has their own reasons and who are you to say that their time is any more or less valuable than what you see fit? For some, that personalized service is worth it.

 

I didnt pay anyone to edit my paper....heck one or two you offered to do it for me for free but I declined...with that said, its non of my business if Rodican himself writes a PS or simply charges someone to edit theirs and why? Because in the end when I have to present myself to an interview committee (which I did) and they read my on site writing sample they will know that I am the same person through and through----typos and all :-)

[rev ronin]

If you want to charge, do it through a standardized site. There are legal issues here ... what if the site got sued, because of poor editing and review of an essay, or from not getting accepted?

With all due respect, that's a silly argument. People give advice on the Internet all the time, and the site is no more at risk from any private transaction than it is from Rodican's efforts. You're not a lawyer, I'm not a lawyer, but I've spent more than a few years working for lawyers, and that argument would really only be an issue if our good site owner had some seriously deep pockets.

 

No offense, rev, you're as good a writer as some others here, but I find your attempt a bit smarmy considering this isn't your website.

Did you overlook the part where I asked Mike Banuchi about this before I offered, and he's willing to sell me ad space if/when I get a website up and running? Thanks for the compliment, though.

 

Additionally, I see this as part of the scope of our field ... those we shadow don't get reimbursed, nor do our Preceptors. To hold yourself so high and mighty as to your time ... I'm a bit repulsed, to be honest.

So do I. That's why I did this for free last season, until the decision was made that we wouldn't critique PS'es online. I'm fine with helping multiple people (one directly, others indirectly since they can read it) for free, but if my time is going to be spent helping only one applicant... well, that person can pay if they want more than the overview. I'm perfectly OK with you not wanting to do this yourself... but repulsed? Isn't that a bit hyperbolic?

 

I'm fine with proofreading, even a suggestion or two. But if an essay needs a great deal of work, they should first take it to their campus writing lab.

Not a bad suggestion, and one that I would expect anyone who actually has a campus writing lab as an option to pursue before hiring a paid editor. But there are plenty of us who worked during the day and attended classes at night or online, and had no easy access to such a writing lab.

 

So far, this is all academic: no one has actually offered to pay me anything yet. But lest you think I'm fleecing folks, here's my proposed fee schedule:

* Initial feedback, one paragraph: Free.

* Detailed read/teardown: $20. Roughly an hour of my time to do a critical read-through and make specific suggestions once. I expect this is equivalent in scope to the feedback Rodican offers in his $249 silver package: http://www.andrewrodican.com/physician-assistant-school-coaching

* Iterative/collaborative editing: $50. Somewhere in the 2-4 hour mark, bouncing emails back and forth to bring out the best in the essay. Again, I expect this is scope-equivalent to Rodican's editing in his $349 gold package.

[rev ronin]

I am on the sidelines here, but I would suggest rev's credentials are simply his willingness to do the job, and to be one step up on the academic ladder than the applicant. Let the buyer beware.

Pretty much, yes. That, and I have two humanities masters', which involved rather a lot of writing, and 18 years experience in written business communication, including 10 of writing and reviewing internal policies and publicly-distributed technical materials for a Fortune 100 company. I've published a few small articles here and there, but I freely admit that I'm a better editor than author.

[Hemegroup]

I wasn't aware that you were in discussions with Banuchi. As long as it's all on the up and up!

[Just Steve]

The Op's question is about charging...it appears the conversation is tracking in a "do the service or not do the service" direction. To that end, I offer my latest thought...

 

Would you ask a perspective employer to review your application to their practice? Would you offer a current employee of that office a reasonable sum to review your application to see if it fits with what the boss is looking for?

[just_me]

Not an application though.....and rev is not an ADCOM member of the program that the applicant is applying to

 

There are people that hire interview coaches who may or may not have worked for the same places that you are applying to which seems more along the lines or comparison and yes...they charge for their services

 

The Op's question is about charging...it appears the conversation is tracking in a "do the service or not do the service" direction. To that end, I offer my latest thought...

 

Would you ask a perspective employer to review your application to their practice? Would you offer a current employee of that office a reasonable sum to review your application to see if it fits with what the boss is looking for?

[just_me]

BTW isnt there a previous program director that runs a pa applicant prep business/course/program similar to many of the MD appplicant programs out there. It seems that it has already been decided that its ok to charge for these services....its been done for years....so I guess the real question is simply "should one of our own board members be allowed to profit in this manner from this site"

 

I say "our own board members" which still isnt completely accurate because no one obviously has a problem with Mr Rodican doing so and he is a board member as well....not as active as rev but a board member nonetheless

[Hemegroup]

Hey, as long as it's regulated ... but for that matter, how do you know no one has a problem with Mr. Rodican charging exorbitant prices? People can do what they want ... but that doesn't make it right. I'm not saying that charging for editing isn't kosher ... but at least his prices are up front for all to see, as disgusting as they sound to be. I guess that's what irked me most about rev's post in the first place, or at least, what it seemed to be. But if she/he wants to start up an editing business, hey, more power to them!