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I’m at a bit of a crossroads with my career.
 

Progression has been EMT to Medic to PA. 6 years in I still enjoy clinical medicine and patients. In the primary care realm there is no difference between the workload and expectations of myself and a physician. I now take call as they do. The difference is pay and education. I’m feeling some of that ceiling now and looking for advancement.

I begin teaching at my local program this fall but have begun to explore medical school as an alternative future. I’m going back and forth between pushing for myself as a PA and really advancing what we do locally as I am able vs medical school. 

Im mid 30s with a young family. Medical school is doable but I’m sure it would be difficult. My other option is continued clinical practice as a PA combined with some teaching and possibly pursuing a PhD geared towards Allied Health professionals looking to do research or teach. It’s from my local program and has a good reputation. 
 

Id love some advice from other PAs as I’m struggling with either beginning the MCAT prep or focusing on PA opportunities.

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There are so many variables that can influence such a decision. It crossed my mind at your age, but I was the sole provider for a family of seven. It wasn't an option. Some days I regretted not going to medical school then or earlier. But I've also met physicians who lost their spouses (divorce) and kids because of the harsh years of medical school and residency and for that, I sense regret in them. If I were you, I think I would do the MCAT and see where that leaves you. If Med school is still an option after that, make sure the people you love are onboard.

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It's not easy deciding what to do next in life. There are lots of pros and cons. Medical school would be a decade or so and your family will continue evolving in the meantime. To simplify things, I recommend that you first decide if you -- and your family -- are really willing to pay that price.

I was once somewhere near where you are now. I was in my late 30s, working as an engineer and loving medicine as my volunteer job. I was thinking about medical school but my wife and three kids proved to be more important to me. I had already retreated to my den once in my early 30s to study for a second masters. My daughter -- 2 at the time -- really didn't like the reclusive Daddy who was always either working, in class, or wanting it to be quiet so he could study. After I graduated, we became buddies again but I really didn't want to do that again, and this time for a decade.

So instead I worked my way up through EMS and became a medic, while continuing in my day job. I went to work for myself for 12 years and ultimately "retired" from engineering to go to PA school. After 9 years of being a PA, I dropped back to part-time and started teaching part-time. Besides my lectures, my main thing has been to run a simulation lab, which also draws on my engineering background. I'm in my late 70s now and still do the two jobs. (My daughter, by the way, went on to become a vet, later, got a PhD, and now one of her own three kids is just starting college next month. )

The only reason I tell you all of this is to give you this advice: (1) see if you're really ready for a decade commitment to medical school with your family. And, if not, (2) sometimes it's good to take just a small step, see how you feel, and then take another step. I chose the second path and I've enjoyed it. For you, that might involve taking a different PA position or specialty, or shadowing a buddy who is in a different environment. 

Best of luck!

Edited by UGoLong
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I am in my mid 50s and toyed with the idea of med school many times, even going back to take the extra courses I needed. I wish I had done it. Happy now working 100% rural practice, but had 20 rough years getting talked down to and disrespected and underpaid. It sounds like you have several great options. I think it boils down to this:

1. Be the best PA you can be by obtaining additional clinical or academic training (residency, doctorate, etc).

2. Go to med school. There are many 3 year med schools now and a handful of programs, which do not require the mcat. The 3 year PA to DO bridge program at Lecom is the one I was shooting for. There are a number of PAs on these boards currently in the process of applying to, or attending med school as well as a few who have finished the process..

https://lecom.edu/college-of-osteopathic-medicine/com-pathways/apap/

*Recognizing that alternative measures can be used to demonstrate the ability to handle challenging curriculum and that GPA is more predictive of successful completion of medical school, we consider the LECOM Academic Index Score (AIS) as an alternative for outstanding applicants who have not taken the MCAT. The AIS uses the overall total for undergraduate and graduate GPA in formula calculation with ACT and/or SAT Critical Reading and Math scores in consideration of offering interviews. A minimum AIS of 110 is required.

 

 

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Thanks for the different thoughts and perspectives. Recently I had a family medicine doc come in for a visit, we briefly discussed going to med school. He specifically said we essentially do the exact same job and the pay premium to him seemed worth it. 
 

That one hit home: same responsibilities with 40% the pay. I’m not saying my training or education is the same but my day to day is and so are the expectations of me by management and patients. 

Edited by turnedintoamartian
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8 hours ago, turnedintoamartian said:

Thanks for the different thoughts and perspectives. Recently I had a family medicine doc come in for a visit, we briefly discussed going to med school. He specifically said we essentially do the exact same job and the pay premium to him seemed worth it. 
 

That one hit home: same responsibilities with 40% the pay. I’m not saying my training or education is the same but my day to day is and so are the expectations of me by management and patients. 

Last job.  (Which I quit)

identical job as docs, even call. 
as you say 40% pay 

 

then docs got 10% raise and they proposed I get a pay decrease.  Once again PA support physician salaries.  I resigned instead of taking a pay decrease 

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At any instant, the temperature varies all over the planet. So too does the fairness of employment, salaries, qualities of your superiors, etc.

What does that mean? To me, it means that -- rather than waiting for the world to change -- sometimes you have to change what you're doing instead. Being dissatisfied with your lot is the first step. But try to move towards something you may like rather than just away from wherever you are now.

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If you are on Reddit follow some of the threads for residents, physicians seeking residency, and pre meds. I have found it very enlightening. I feel like I have better insight into physician frustrations than I did before.

To decide to go to medical school is a big deal and has a lot of baggage. Whether it is worth it is hard to say. I think asking before, during, and after graduation would be 3 different answers.

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On 7/17/2023 at 8:18 AM, UGoLong said:

At any instant, the temperature varies all over the planet. So too does the fairness of employment, salaries, qualities of your superiors, etc.

What does that mean? To me, it means that -- rather than waiting for the world to change -- sometimes you have to change what you're doing instead. Being dissatisfied with your lot is the first step. But try to move towards something you may like rather than just away from wherever you are now.

I remember reading something similar from a previous post of yours, and it made all the difference to me. Thank you. 

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16 minutes ago, turnedintoamartian said:

The disrespect and uphill battle noted by Emed weighs heavily as well. Even with excellent clinical knowledge PAs certainly get looked down upon and are rarely considered experts. That professional ceiling is giving me pause.

I'm sure that's true in some places; it was to an extent when I started as a PA in 2006. I get nothing but respect now (but, then again, besides being 17 years in, I'm looking older all the time!)

In general, respect is something that's earned. Depending on how we act when challenged, we can also give respect away. That said, "you be you." There is no right answer.

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5 hours ago, turnedintoamartian said:

The disrespect and uphill battle noted by Emed weighs heavily as well. Even with excellent clinical knowledge PAs certainly get looked down upon and are rarely considered experts. That professional ceiling is giving me pause.

I really haven't gotten this from MDs. I think a large part of this is that 1) I'm a specialist, and 2) my specialty is less desirable.  If you sit down to think about it, working on long-term injured worker care is probably the EXACT sort of thing most MDs would be happy to have a PA take over instead of locking an MD into that job.

Who I have had difficulty with has been medical supply companies, like my Amazon post noted.  I had to order from Henry Schein for the first time in a while because McKesson has sucked at having a few key things in stock. They had to talk to me ON THE PHONE to hear me verbally say my SP was still the same before they shipped me this really dangrerous substance known as "Kenalog". (to be read with sarcasm and ending eyeroll)

Oh, yeah, and the feds won't let me see patients either, but AAPA is working on that.

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Its a weird dichotomy that sometimes defies explanation.

I was recently offered the job of medical director of my clinic. Sounds like a big deal doesn't it? It is a position that has never been filled by anyone but a physician and the job description requires a physician but they want to make me "acting medical director" until they could change the job description.

My job would be exactly the same. Same schedule. Same admin responsibilities. Same patient panel. Same patients.

What massive pay raise did they offer me to go with this huge leap in responsibility? None. I'd be making 100k less than the physician that just vacated the position. Why?

I don't know. The MD behind the name doesn't bring anything extra to the position. I'll probably be better at the admin side than most. It is just the way of the (medical) world.

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9 hours ago, turnedintoamartian said:

The disrespect and uphill battle noted by Emed weighs heavily as well. Even with excellent clinical knowledge PAs certainly get looked down upon and are rarely considered experts. That professional ceiling is giving me pause.

yup,it is not a glass ceiling that can be broken through but a concrete ceiling that organized medicine and administration pretty much refuses to budge on....

9 hours ago, UGoLong said:

I'm sure that's true in some places; it was to an extent when I started as a PA in 2006. I get nothing but respect now (but, then again, besides being 17 years in, I'm looking older all the time!)

In general, respect is something that's earned. Depending on how we act when challenged, we can also give respect away. That said, "you be you." There is no right answer.

I can honestly say I have never been treated with respect equal to that of a doc, in spite of training them, having 2+ decades of experience, and commonly being near the top of the knowledge pile for pcp where the rubber meets the road.  It was always a battle.  in 2008 after working a few years in IR (dangling wire across hearts,, bx pretty much anything, doing all floor consults) I went to pain management.  The Pain Clinic Director (graduate of Carribean Medical college and personality of a piece of pasta) told me I was not to pierce the skin with a needle unless a PHYSICIAN was in the clinic.  I tried to explain the illogical nature of this and got eye rolls (literally eye rolls) from her.  Most recently had to go get 10 joint injections, 10 shave bx, 10 punch bx proctored to get credentialed with the old hospital system.  Docs just get this, but PA - nope we have to do it over and over.  I tried explaining that I have done 100's of injections and like over 100 Bx but admin held firm.....  The did not have a single "core" procedure for a PA --- none.... they don't trust us for anything..

 

 

Till we get independence and get out from under the docs, and get PA into Admin we are going to be restricted...

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On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 PM, turnedintoamartian said:

I’m at a bit of a crossroads with my career.
 

Progression has been EMT to Medic to PA. 6 years in I still enjoy clinical medicine and patients. In the primary care realm there is no difference between the workload and expectations of myself and a physician. I now take call as they do. The difference is pay and education. I’m feeling some of that ceiling now and looking for advancement.

I begin teaching at my local program this fall but have begun to explore medical school as an alternative future. I’m going back and forth between pushing for myself as a PA and really advancing what we do locally as I am able vs medical school. 

Im mid 30s with a young family. Medical school is doable but I’m sure it would be difficult. My other option is continued clinical practice as a PA combined with some teaching and possibly pursuing a PhD geared towards Allied Health professionals looking to do research or teach. It’s from my local program and has a good reputation. 
 

Id love some advice from other PAs as I’m struggling with either beginning the MCAT prep or focusing on PA opportunities.

I was also at a crossroads in my career although at a younger age at the time in comparison.  Briefly, I was a CT surgery PA for a few years, did the PA to DO bridge at LECOM and now am in my last year of residency in anesthesiology.  I know people intermittently send me messages about this so I apologize if I haven't gotten back to them! Been busy and whatnot.  First time back on this forum in a while.  

I, too, felt as though there was a glass ceiling in my career combined with the fact that there wasn't anything exciting going on my life with no debt, kids, or responsibilities.  The outlook of possibilities after completing medical school and residency combined with the aforementioned circumstances was the impetus for pursing medical school.

I can answer more specific questions if you DM me and I'll try to remember to recheck the account!  But overall, it was a very intense, long journey.  There were many times in medical school where I would go, "Oh, that's what that meant" or "Oh, that's why we did that."  You get a much deeper understanding of clinical medicine, physiology, pharmacology, and pathology with medical school as a result of multiple high stake board exams combined with frequent testing (at least at LECOM). 

Then in residency, you would think that because you were a PA that went to medical school that things would be different and you would be respected and mostly everything would be peachy.  Nope, at the big academic centers that you are funneled into for residency it is often acknowledged that you know a few more caveats and are more seasoned as a former PA but you still are treated much worse than what you would have been if you worked at the same institution as a PA.  The academic centers thrive on diverting their least tolerable/mindless/silly tasks onto the residents because they are cheap labor, cannot negotiate, and have the carrot of being a residency trained physician at the end constantly held over their heads.  These tasks always get more meaningless and mind numbing as the attendings and midlevels never have to deal with them in the interest of "education."  I definitely had more people talk back to me, question my judgement, and just be plain mean to me as a resident than I ever did as a PA.  And if you complain about it, then no one is ever in your corner because they know you'll be gone in a few years and the other person has been there for years already combined with the constant need to retain hospital staff.  And I'm not alone in this.  I've talked to other PA's and NP's who are in residency and they have experienced very similar things.  I guess it also doesn't help that I picked a specialty that everyone relies on but is not well respected in general but especially so at my institution.  I can honestly say that I am a much better clinician now because of my training but a much worse human being.  You can understand why some doctors get short tempered and irritable after going through this process once you've been through it.    

Some of the more infuriating things that have happened in residency that drive me nuts: nurses not listening to me during an emergency and just doing whatever they want despite clearly telling them what I wanted, a NP pushing me out of the way to try to intubate a difficult airway because "it was her patient" (why did you page me for help? "oh, that's just a page that goes out whenever an intubation happens") then proceed to muck up the airway only for me to come back and get it for her, a CRNA not listening when I told her a patient was an extremely difficult airway and the airway should only be manipulated with a fiberoptic (patient coded and developed an anoxic brain injury because she told the attending they had a favorable airway and started to induce general anesthesia), being told by nurses to take out the trash because it's "anesthesia trash not surgical trash" and I had no anesthesia techs at this facility, hammer paged from angry nurses wanting silly paperwork filled out despite being in a code, other overworked residents hammer paging you and paging at silly hours for stuff that can clearly wait until morning, being pushed out of the way by attendings/NPs/PAs for their own consent while I am actively consenting a patient for anesthesia, PA holding the pager telling me that she can't answer my simple question and I have to call one of the residents who is on protected academic time directly (why are you holding the pager then????  what is the point of this protected academic time????), etc... Most of this is the poor culture of the hospital I'm at.  It's a very malignant place but still similar to a lot of academic centers you would be expected to train at.  It's not a thing directed at multiple professions in general, it's just the academic centers tend to breed this kind of behavior.  But had I not gone to medical school, I likely would have been sheltered from this poor behavior on the part of other people as my interest lies in serving smaller communities and never working at an academic center.  Can't wait to finish.   

It's a long journey and you have to be prepared to swallow your pride for the next decade because it doesn't get better when you graduate residency. Once you graduate, you are now on the lowest of the totem pole of attendings.  You get the worst consults, the sickest patients, the worst hours, and have to take more abuse from other physicians now.  The new anesthesia attendings frequently get put in rooms by themselves, asked to stay late without extra pay, and have to take the lion's share of call.

Additionally, consider the other side of the equation.  You now have people trying to claim that all the stuff you've been through as mentioned above was the same as what they went through as a NP student, PA student, SRNA, etc.  Have a DNP introducing herself as "Dr. xxxx, one of the pediatric NICU doctors".  SRNA students introduce themselves as anesthesia residents (with much better hours clearly).  CRNAs introduce themselves as nurse anesthesiologists!  You go through all this training expecting to be treated with more respect and have a coveted title and all the other people want to be you without sacrificing a decade of their life, spending $20k in board exams/review materials, competing with thousands of people for a residency spot, taking multiple rigorous board exams throughout medical school and residency, competing for a fellowship spot, sacrificing holidays/birthdays/funerals/first steps/first words etc.  One of our night CRNA's has demeaned our profession to the suffix "-ologist". "I sometimes think about getting my -ologist" like it's something you just get at a grocery store.  Another demeaning term is MDA (MD Anesthesiologist) like there is any other type of anesthesiologist.  

If I was in my mid thirties with a family, no way would I go back regardless of specialty.  It was still worth it to me since I started this journey in my mid twenties and am almost done.  Yes, the money is better.  Yes, you get more of a say in things to a certain extent (but this is going away with corporate medicine).  Yes, your life will suffer financially, emotionally, and structurally to obtain these things.  But boy, I have aged a lot in such a short period of time.  After doing all this, I genuinely wonder if I should have even gone into medicine at all.  Academic training centers for residents are awful.  You probably make good money and have predictable hours now (Looking back, I feel like I did in my PA career).  That is worth a lot and a lot of people would want to have that.  Find something you enjoy whether it be more devotion to the profession or a hobby to devote time to.  The stresses of being a physician do not end with medical school.  They get worse with residency.  Then even worse as an attending until you are established.  Once established, probably gets better.  

Yes, I am burnt out while writing this haha.  But it is something that you will likely experience if you go to medical school.

Hope this was helpful to see things from a different lens!  Having been a PA, I still would much rather work with a PA than any NP or CRNA!  Doing what you love doesn't necessarily mean going to medical school to do it because there is not much respect in being a physician anymore.  

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On 7/28/2023 at 10:09 AM, CVTSPA said:

I can honestly say that I am a much better clinician now because of my training but a much worse human being.  You can understand why some doctors get short tempered and irritable after going through this process once you've been through it.

Thanks for taking the time to write such an insightful and honest post. After reading and reflecting, I am grateful to be able to do what I do, have the flexibility I have, and earn a comfortable living while still garnering some sort of respect and satisfaction in a day's work. I feel like I get more hardened as time goes on but also humbled after reading posts like yours. Thanks for the reality check and offering your inside perspective and experience! And congrats on getting through it so far. You can do it!

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On 7/27/2023 at 5:32 PM, ventana said:

Most recently had to go get 10 joint injections, 10 shave bx, 10 punch bx proctored to get credentialed with the old hospital system.  Docs just get this, but PA - nope we have to do it over and over.  I tried explaining that I have done 100's of injections and like over 100 Bx but admin held firm.....  The did not have a single "core" procedure for a PA --- none.... they don't trust us for anything

I haven't had the same experience. Did you provide case logs of procedures you've performed? I've been credentialed at eight hospitals in the last four years and I've been granted privileges on all procedures I requested without proctoring with the exception of the times I switched to a brand new specialty and didn't have any documented case logs on procedures I'm requesting to perform. It only seems right to be required to be proctored on new procedures one has never performed or can't provide evidence of performing.

As for docs, they get proctored too. I've personally seen this required for multiple orthopedic surgeons and a CT surgeon at two different hospital systems.

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On 7/28/2023 at 12:09 PM, CVTSPA said:

I was also at a crossroads in my career although at a younger age at the time in comparison.  Briefly, I was a CT surgery PA for a few years, did the PA to DO bridge at LECOM and now am in my last year of residency in anesthesiology.  I know people intermittently send me messages about this so I apologize if I haven't gotten back to them! Been busy and whatnot.  First time back on this forum in a while.  

I, too, felt as though there was a glass ceiling in my career combined with the fact that there wasn't anything exciting going on my life with no debt, kids, or responsibilities.  The outlook of possibilities after completing medical school and residency combined with the aforementioned circumstances was the impetus for pursing medical school.

I can answer more specific questions if you DM me and I'll try to remember to recheck the account!  But overall, it was a very intense, long journey.  There were many times in medical school where I would go, "Oh, that's what that meant" or "Oh, that's why we did that."  You get a much deeper understanding of clinical medicine, physiology, pharmacology, and pathology with medical school as a result of multiple high stake board exams combined with frequent testing (at least at LECOM). 

Then in residency, you would think that because you were a PA that went to medical school that things would be different and you would be respected and mostly everything would be peachy.  Nope, at the big academic centers that you are funneled into for residency it is often acknowledged that you know a few more caveats and are more seasoned as a former PA but you still are treated much worse than what you would have been if you worked at the same institution as a PA.  The academic centers thrive on diverting their least tolerable/mindless/silly tasks onto the residents because they are cheap labor, cannot negotiate, and have the carrot of being a residency trained physician at the end constantly held over their heads.  These tasks always get more meaningless and mind numbing as the attendings and midlevels never have to deal with them in the interest of "education."  I definitely had more people talk back to me, question my judgement, and just be plain mean to me as a resident than I ever did as a PA.  And if you complain about it, then no one is ever in your corner because they know you'll be gone in a few years and the other person has been there for years already combined with the constant need to retain hospital staff.  And I'm not alone in this.  I've talked to other PA's and NP's who are in residency and they have experienced very similar things.  I guess it also doesn't help that I picked a specialty that everyone relies on but is not well respected in general but especially so at my institution.  I can honestly say that I am a much better clinician now because of my training but a much worse human being.  You can understand why some doctors get short tempered and irritable after going through this process once you've been through it.    

Some of the more infuriating things that have happened in residency that drive me nuts: nurses not listening to me during an emergency and just doing whatever they want despite clearly telling them what I wanted, a NP pushing me out of the way to try to intubate a difficult airway because "it was her patient" (why did you page me for help? "oh, that's just a page that goes out whenever an intubation happens") then proceed to muck up the airway only for me to come back and get it for her, a CRNA not listening when I told her a patient was an extremely difficult airway and the airway should only be manipulated with a fiberoptic (patient coded and developed an anoxic brain injury because she told the attending they had a favorable airway and started to induce general anesthesia), being told by nurses to take out the trash because it's "anesthesia trash not surgical trash" and I had no anesthesia techs at this facility, hammer paged from angry nurses wanting silly paperwork filled out despite being in a code, other overworked residents hammer paging you and paging at silly hours for stuff that can clearly wait until morning, being pushed out of the way by attendings/NPs/PAs for their own consent while I am actively consenting a patient for anesthesia, PA holding the pager telling me that she can't answer my simple question and I have to call one of the residents who is on protected academic time directly (why are you holding the pager then????  what is the point of this protected academic time????), etc... Most of this is the poor culture of the hospital I'm at.  It's a very malignant place but still similar to a lot of academic centers you would be expected to train at.  It's not a thing directed at multiple professions in general, it's just the academic centers tend to breed this kind of behavior.  But had I not gone to medical school, I likely would have been sheltered from this poor behavior on the part of other people as my interest lies in serving smaller communities and never working at an academic center.  Can't wait to finish.   

It's a long journey and you have to be prepared to swallow your pride for the next decade because it doesn't get better when you graduate residency. Once you graduate, you are now on the lowest of the totem pole of attendings.  You get the worst consults, the sickest patients, the worst hours, and have to take more abuse from other physicians now.  The new anesthesia attendings frequently get put in rooms by themselves, asked to stay late without extra pay, and have to take the lion's share of call.

Additionally, consider the other side of the equation.  You now have people trying to claim that all the stuff you've been through as mentioned above was the same as what they went through as a NP student, PA student, SRNA, etc.  Have a DNP introducing herself as "Dr. xxxx, one of the pediatric NICU doctors".  SRNA students introduce themselves as anesthesia residents (with much better hours clearly).  CRNAs introduce themselves as nurse anesthesiologists!  You go through all this training expecting to be treated with more respect and have a coveted title and all the other people want to be you without sacrificing a decade of their life, spending $20k in board exams/review materials, competing with thousands of people for a residency spot, taking multiple rigorous board exams throughout medical school and residency, competing for a fellowship spot, sacrificing holidays/birthdays/funerals/first steps/first words etc.  One of our night CRNA's has demeaned our profession to the suffix "-ologist". "I sometimes think about getting my -ologist" like it's something you just get at a grocery store.  Another demeaning term is MDA (MD Anesthesiologist) like there is any other type of anesthesiologist.  

If I was in my mid thirties with a family, no way would I go back regardless of specialty.  It was still worth it to me since I started this journey in my mid twenties and am almost done.  Yes, the money is better.  Yes, you get more of a say in things to a certain extent (but this is going away with corporate medicine).  Yes, your life will suffer financially, emotionally, and structurally to obtain these things.  But boy, I have aged a lot in such a short period of time.  After doing all this, I genuinely wonder if I should have even gone into medicine at all.  Academic training centers for residents are awful.  You probably make good money and have predictable hours now (Looking back, I feel like I did in my PA career).  That is worth a lot and a lot of people would want to have that.  Find something you enjoy whether it be more devotion to the profession or a hobby to devote time to.  The stresses of being a physician do not end with medical school.  They get worse with residency.  Then even worse as an attending until you are established.  Once established, probably gets better.  

Yes, I am burnt out while writing this haha.  But it is something that you will likely experience if you go to medical school.

Hope this was helpful to see things from a different lens!  Having been a PA, I still would much rather work with a PA than any NP or CRNA!  Doing what you love doesn't necessarily mean going to medical school to do it because there is not much respect in being a physician anymore.  

 

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