50% of job posting exclusively seeking APRNs

[sas5814]

I didn't say it was THE thing just the first and most important. Until we have economic parity no other argument or effort has any chance of succeeding.

When we cost the same to hire and maintain then our arguments about better training etc can get some traction. I really think the majority of the time, among physicians, we are the preferred provider. That doesn't matter if the bean counters can't make economic sense of it.

The rest...I have no answer for. We have always been a woefully disinterested and uninvolved profession. It hasn't changed. Maybe a real live existential professional crisis will mobilize the masses.

For me I have spent the last 2 years slowly trying to weasel my way into the hallowed halls of senior leadership where I am currently work. I don't have any kind of official title, and really don't want one, but have found myself with a seat at the table and a voice on some very big professional issues. That is how we get brand recognition.

[Hope2PA]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:25 PM, SedRate said:

Not to be naive, a Debbie downer, neighsayer, or whatever, but realistically, how would that put us on a level anywhere near APRNs given their clout, sheer numbers, and lobby? Business people have proven they only care about numbers. Independence may put us above on paper, but APRNs riding the coattails of their nursing background (most every layperson I meet thinks nurses can do no wrong, especially nurses who are "doctors") and being churned out will only continue to undermine the PA pool. RNs are trained in and encouraged to get into leadership, management, etc, whereas PAs receive no training or encouragement. There's so much work that needs to be done and given the extreme snail pace of advancement from apathetic views, lack of management presence, lack of awareness, minimal support and lobbying, lack of name recognition (I am still shocked when I have to explain what a PA is to people), etc, I'm afraid at this point we are much too far behind to even hope to catch up. So I'm wondering, and I've said this before, instead of competing with APRNs, is there a niche we can fill and pivot our focus toward? And honestly, I'm now starting to think that doctorate-level training is the only way to expedite this. After all (and this is rhetorical), everyone knows what a "doctor" is and doesn't question that. Right? 

Independence is HUGE, from what I've been told out right by Managers, HR, CEO. There are places that are nurse heavy in admin, but the ability to be independent makes an easy choice.  If PAs had same scope as NPs, independence, there would be few clinical areas that would not consider PA equally or above NP. It is so easy for nurse managers to just tell powers that be, to hire NP because , they are independent practioners! No argument with that. 

[SedRate]

11 hours ago, Hemmingway said:

I didn't say it was THE thing just the first and most important. Until we have economic parity no other argument or effort has any chance of succeeding.

When we cost the same to hire and maintain then our arguments about better training etc can get some traction. I really think the majority of the time, among physicians, we are the preferred provider. That doesn't matter if the bean counters can't make economic sense of it.

The rest...I have no answer for. We have always been a woefully disinterested and uninvolved profession. It hasn't changed. Maybe a real live existential professional crisis will mobilize the masses.

For me I have spent the last 2 years slowly trying to weasel my way into the hallowed halls of senior leadership where I am currently work. I don't have any kind of official title, and really don't want one, but have found myself with a seat at the table and a voice on some very big professional issues. That is how we get brand recognition.

I guess what I was trying to point out is it's ultimately a multifaceted issue, as you know. Part of the issue with gaining any parity is our name and the difficulty we've had getting anywhere as "assistants." 

Glad to hear folks like yourself are still doing good work out there and helping to advance the profession. 

[SedRate]

6 hours ago, Hope2PA said:

Independence is HUGE, from what I've been told out right by Managers, HR, CEO. There are places that are nurse heavy in admin, but the ability to be independent makes an easy choice.  If PAs had same scope as NPs, independence, there would be few clinical areas that would not consider PA equally or above NP. It is so easy for nurse managers to just tell powers that be, to hire NP because , they are independent practioners! No argument with that. 

Wow, that's pretty significant to hear the powers that be say that. Like I said before, I personally haven't had any issues with my employability as a PA so it's not something that's affected me nor caused me any concern. I feel pretty naive/out of the loop when I hear/read things like your post as I just haven't had that same experience or conversations. It's nice to hear others like yourself share their concerns and personally experiences to help keep people like myself up to date and privy to very important profession-related issues. Thank you 

[iconic]

5 hours ago, SedRate said:

Wow, that's pretty significant to hear the powers that be say that. Like I said before, I personally haven't had any issues with my employability as a PA so it's not something that's affected me nor caused me any concern. I feel pretty naive/out of the loop when I hear/read things like your post as I just haven't had that same experience or conversations. It's nice to hear others like yourself share their concerns and personally experiences to help keep people like myself up to date and privy to very important profession-related issues. Thank you 

Let me a guess.. a surgical PA? 

[sas5814]

11 hours ago, SedRate said:

Wow, that's pretty significant to hear the powers that be say that. Like I said before, I personally haven't had any issues with my employability as a PA so it's not something that's affected me nor caused me any concern. I feel pretty naive/out of the loop when I hear/read things like your post as I just haven't had that same experience or conversations. It's nice to hear others like yourself share their concerns and personally experiences to help keep people like myself up to date and privy to very important profession-related issues. Thank you 

I am NOT kicking you here but you point out the greatest problem we have.... people who haven't felt any pain can't or don't or won't see the issue. So there is no sense of urgency. By the time enough people have felt the sting it will be way way too late.

[SedRate]

9 hours ago, iconic said:

Let me a guess.. a surgical PA? 

Yep, hospitals require supervision for PAs and APRNs so independence isn't a huge topic of conversation around the hospitals I've been to and surgical practices I've worked at. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by SedRate

[SedRate]

4 hours ago, Hemmingway said:

I am NOT kicking you here but you point out the greatest problem we have.... people who haven't felt any pain can't or don't or won't see the issue. So there is no sense of urgency. By the time enough people have felt the sting it will be way way too late.

Yes, agree. And I think that's also a huge part of the problem. There's a HUGE disconnect within our field. There's no singular collective view. There's a lack of cohesiveness because we have all kinds of people involved: the people who don't, won't, and can't see the issues and the ones who do. 

(By no means is the below directed at you nor singling you out.)

If people keep talking about economic/employment issues to people who have no economic/employment issues, you can imagine how that might fall on deaf ears. Let's work on having productive conversations that get us somewhere. 

Instead of pointing out the issues that some PAs don't really know or care about, we all need to continue talking about the relevance of these issues so they're known and the benefits to solving them. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by SedRate

[nicuPAC]

I work in the NICU so I work with pretty much all NNPs. We just interviewed an NNP who was an FNP, PNP, and NNP and was thinking of going back to get her Palliative NP. I was floored. No wonder we all get wrapped in the "midlevel diploma mill".

Being a PA in the NICU has its own challenges so I have a different perspective than others but I'm not someone worried about job loss in the future. 

[SedRate]

2 hours ago, nicuPAC said:

I work in the NICU so I work with pretty much all NNPs. We just interviewed an NNP who was an FNP, PNP, and NNP and was thinking of going back to get her Palliative NP. I was floored. No wonder we all get wrapped in the "midlevel diploma mill".

Being a PA in the NICU has its own challenges so I have a different perspective than others but I'm not someone worried about job loss in the future. 

Geez, no kidding. 

[eluch15]

As a new grad PA who has been searching for PA jobs and is friends with a new grad NP, I would argue that it depends on what type of job you are looking for. I've noticed that more specialized fields, especially during my interviews, prefer a PA because they have found them to be more knowledgeable and better trained than their former NPs so they soley seek for PAs. However, the general medicine postings like family med and UC lean more towards NPs because they have the assumption that NPs have more experience, thus would be better practioners even though NPs typically have a background in hospital medicine which does not help them as practioners. 

[ventana]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:59 AM, eluch15 said:

As a new grad PA who has been searching for PA jobs and is friends with a new grad NP, I would argue that it depends on what type of job you are looking for. I've noticed that more specialized fields, especially during my interviews, prefer a PA because they have found them to be more knowledgeable and better trained than their former NPs so they soley seek for PAs. However, the general medicine postings like family med and UC lean more towards NPs because they have the assumption that NPs have more experience, thus would be better practioners even though NPs typically have a background in hospital medicine which does not help them as practioners. 

New grad NP have a shameful lack of basic medical knowledge and DDx development.   
PA school barely teaches you enough to not kill someone, NP school doesn’t share this level of education.  NP are going to cheapen and hurt FP and IM.  

[iconic]

38 minutes ago, ventana said:

New grad NP have a shameful lack of basic medical knowledge and DDx development.   
PA school barely teaches you enough to not kill someone, NP school doesn’t share this level of education.  NP are going to cheapen and hurt FP and IM.  

We've been saying this for years - has this happened? 
Maybe surgical specialties like PAs; even specialized fields love NPs with RN experience in that specialty

Edited July 4, 2023 by iconic

[SedRate]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:59 AM, eluch15 said:

NPs typically have a background in hospital medicine which does not help them as practioners. 

They don't have a background in medicine -- they have a background in nursing.

[Hope2PA]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:59 AM, eluch15 said:NPs typically have a background in hospital medicine which does not help them as practioners. 

Anyone who has worked in medical field has some medical knowledge which can be helpful. Nursing does not have the market on helpful clinical knowledge, but role is very different. If you recall during covid they wanted PAs to work as nurses and nurses had a shit fit, saying nursing was nothing like being a PA, Hummm? Plus, NPs are no longer nurses with "years" of any clinical experience. So many direct entry and absolutely no specific experience required even for those who do work as a nurse. The nurse at my hospital who only oversaw employee vaccines sure didn't gain relevant knowledge. 
I do think PA programs should always require a year doing something in medical field. 

[ventana]

Yup direct entry NP programs are bad for NP

no longer is the NP a 10plus yr er or icu nurse.  Now they are the PA class fail out(happened in my class)

[Joelseff]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:05 AM, Reality Check 2 said:

The PA profession will die out within 10 yrs and we will be unemployable unless AAPA listens and actually acknowledges the 9000 lb elephant in the room.

AAPA is tone deaf and basically deaf as they refuse to hear anything.

That elephant keeps eating and gains weight exponentially each passing year... 

[sillycibin]

Totally agree that leadership has had their heads up their arses for years.  All that time, energy, and money spent on changing our name from PA to PA.  

Isn't there at least one state with the ability for a PA to have independent practice after x number of years?  Utah maybe?  We really need at least one state to grant independent practice and get that example solidified to then go at other state legislatures.  I also find it baffling that it's legal within a state to allow one profession NPs to have such advantageous regulation over another profession PAs who in practice are functionally equivalent.

[sas5814]

37 minutes ago, sillycibin said:

Totally agree that leadership has had their heads up their arses for years.  All that time, energy, and money spent on changing our name from PA to PA.  

Isn't there at least one state with the ability for a PA to have independent practice after x number of years?  Utah maybe?  We really need at least one state to grant independent practice and get that example solidified to then go at other state legislatures.  I also find it baffling that it's legal within a state to allow one profession NPs to have such advantageous regulation over another profession PAs who in practice are functionally equivalent.

I haven't kept track after I bowed out of PA politics but either Montana or North Dakota did this a while back. They don't use the term independent but it amounted to the same thing. Someone else may have a better recollection.

[rev ronin]

8 hours ago, sillycibin said:

Isn't there at least one state with the ability for a PA to have independent practice after x number of years? 

Three, I believe.

[ventana]

Think it is now 4-5?

ND

Utah

?

?

?