Body armor at work

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

We had a knife wielding naked guy running through our hospital very recently. I wasn’t on shift, but sounds like he made it around a ways. I’ve had to tell more than a couple patients that weapons are not allowed in my ED, knives or guns, sometimes with difficulty because they are drunk. 
 

I’ve not personally been scared for myself at work, though I wasn’t there with knife guy, but I’m thinking about getting some body armor to keep under my desk. Nothing rifle rated or anything like I wore with marines. Just some soft handgun level armor with spike protection for knives EMS patch in bright letters. It ain’t cheap though. 600-700 dollars for something that meets those criteria. 

Am I being silly? On one hand I’m statistically very unlikely to ever have something happen to me in my area, but on the other the one time cost for assurance that I would have the advantage against an armed patient seems like a small price to pay even if I only used it once. It’s not without precedent that a disgruntled patient has come to shoot their provider.

anyone have body armor at work? I’m sure plenty of you guys are packing some real heat, but that isn’t what this is about and I would hate for the thread to detail into gun control.

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

Sounds like the guy that showed up at my old VA with a "bomb".  The bad guys have no rules.  The good guys?  You can't even have a firearm in your vehicle, locked away, on property.  Same with my last position with a school district.  One get around?  The clinic was technically in a strip mall so the vehicles were not on district property, even when parked behind the building up against the wall.  I had a co-worker who kept a 9mm S&W Shield in the door pocket of his pickup.

[EMEDPA]

I personally do not wear body armor. Never did in EMS either. I work in rural areas and am likely the only person on any of my shifts not carrying a stun gun, taser, or handgun. We also have police and sheriffs  in our dept all the time. I would save your money unless you are pulling shifts in a place that this happens frequently, like USC/LA county or Cook county, chicago.

[ohiovolffemtp]

One thing to think about is how much time you would have to don any sort of ballistic vest vs how quickly someone could get to you wielding a weapon.  Police are typically trained that anyone with an edged weapon who is within 21 feet or so can get to them before they can draw and fire their sidearm.  So, it could be very difficult to don any protective gear fast enough.  Also, consider how limited the body area coverage provided by a vest.

So, I would think in terms of what you can do in seconds if you have to protect yourself or your co-workers.

[EastCoastPA]

I had a friend who worked prisons and mentioned lightweight knife-proof chainmail. That might go nicely under scrubs and score some medieval style points.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

2 hours ago, EMEDPA said:

I personally do not wear body armor. Never did in EMS either. I work in rural areas and am likely the only person on any of my shifts not carrying a stun gun, taser, or handgun. We also have police and sheriffs  in our dept all the time. I would save your money unless you are pulling shifts in a place that this happens frequently, like USC/LA county or Cook county, chicago.

As far as I know, no one in the department is armed with any weapons, or I’m sure someone would have used it on the previously described patient. I would hope people would be aware of my displeasure if they created more work for me by causing serious trauma to a patient

Very rarely do we have any police. I’ve seen a deputy once. 
 

I tend to agree. The need for it is vanishingly small. It’s why I have talked myself out of it so many times. But every so often something else crazy happens at work and gets me thinking maybe I’m being a cheap skate. I mean, I pay for all kinds of insurance that has worse cost to potential benefit ratio.

2 hours ago, GetMeOuttaThisMess said:

Sounds like the guy that showed up at my old VA with a "bomb".  The bad guys have no rules.  The good guys?  You can't even have a firearm in your vehicle, locked away, on property.  Same with my last position with a school district.  One get around?  The clinic was technically in a strip mall so the vehicles were not on district property, even when parked behind the building up against the wall.  I had a co-worker who kept a 9mm S&W Shield in the door pocket of his pickup.

Again, I don’t want this to digress. I express no opinion on gun ownership in this thread.

 

43 minutes ago, ohiovolffemtp said:

One thing to think about is how much time you would have to don any sort of ballistic vest vs how quickly someone could get to you wielding a weapon.  Police are typically trained that anyone with an edged weapon who is within 21 feet or so can get to them before they can draw and fire their sidearm.  So, it could be very difficult to don any protective gear fast enough.  Also, consider how limited the body area coverage provided by a vest.

So, I would think in terms of what you can do in seconds if you have to protect yourself or your co-workers.

Obviously it depends, but if I were at my desk at rest position, and had it under my desk,  I could have it on and ready to run in under 5 seconds. Is it enough time? Maybe. Could they sprint from the door to my office before anyone even knew what was going on and slice my throat? yes, easily. There is no perfect solution to my safety that does not disrupt patient care, and I’m not willing to do anything to slow patient care for my safety. There is no full proof plan either. If someone wants to get me bad enough and they have a lick of sense, they will. This would be but a small tip of the scale.

as far as coverage, obviously many vital arteries are exposed. I’m not planning on wearing the body armor and going on the offensive, but stay at a safe distance while I try to verbally calm the patient, or to protect another patient or staffer providing me with increase survival odds. I do have I can tourniquet myself no problem and suture ambidextrously. I cannot crack my own chest. 

I see your point though, more through the lens of “is shelling out $700 worth a small advantage that most likely will never get used”

 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

5 minutes ago, EastCoastPA said:

I had a friend who worked prisons and mentioned lightweight knife-proof chainmail. That might go nicely under scrubs and score some medieval style points.

Me in a fight wearing chain mail:

 

 

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

1 hour ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

As far as I know, no one in the department is armed with any weapons, or I’m sure someone would have used it on the previously described patient. I would hope people would be aware of my displeasure if they created more work for me by causing serious trauma to a patient

Very rarely do we have any police. I’ve seen a deputy once. 
 

I tend to agree. The need for it is vanishingly small. It’s why I have talked myself out of it so many times. But every so often something else crazy happens at work and gets me thinking maybe I’m being a cheap skate. I mean, I pay for all kinds of insurance that has worse cost to potential benefit ratio.

Again, I don’t want this to digress. I express no opinion on gun ownership in this thread.

 

Obviously it depends, but if I were at my desk at rest position, and had it under my desk,  I could have it on and ready to run in under 5 seconds. Is it enough time? Maybe. Could they sprint from the door to my office before anyone even knew what was going on and slice my throat? yes, easily. There is no perfect solution to my safety that does not disrupt patient care, and I’m not willing to do anything to slow patient care for my safety. There is no full proof plan either. If someone wants to get me bad enough and they have a lick of sense, they will. This would be but a small tip of the scale.

as far as coverage, obviously many vital arteries are exposed. I’m not planning on wearing the body armor and going on the offensive, but stay at a safe distance while I try to verbally calm the patient, or to protect another patient or staffer providing me with increase survival odds. I do have I can tourniquet myself no problem and suture ambidextrously. I cannot crack my own chest. 

I see your point though, more through the lens of “is shelling out $700 worth a small advantage that most likely will never get used”

 

No need to get excited.  I'm just referencing the difference between the good guys and the bad guys, and the VA happened to provide the ones coming in armed where I happened to be.  Never had one in a community ED.

Edited June 2, 2020 by GetMeOuttaThisMess

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

9 minutes ago, GetMeOuttaThisMess said:

No need to get excited.  I'm just referencing the difference between the good guys and the bad guys, and the VA happened to provide the ones coming in armed where I happened to be.  Never had one in a community ED.

You’re comment wasn’t out of line at all. While I quoted you, it wasn’t really directed at you. Just reiterating the point in an attempt to avoid politics entering the conversation.

[ohiovolffemtp]

4 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

As far as I know, no one in the department is armed with any weapons, or I’m sure someone would have used it on the previously described patient. I would hope people would be aware of my displeasure if they created more work for me by causing serious trauma to a patient

I recommend a mindset change: if a person, patient or not,  is coming at you, your staff, or anyone else in your facility, especially if they have any sort of weapon, they are not a patient until they are under control.  They are a threat.  How to deal with that threat depends on the circumstances, especially the level of danger they are creating.

[CAdamsPAC]

9 hours ago, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

As far as I know, no one in the department is armed with any weapons, or I’m sure someone would have used it on the previously described patient. I would hope people would be aware of my displeasure if they created more work for me by causing serious trauma to a patient

Very rarely do we have any police. I’ve seen a deputy once. 
 

I tend to agree. The need for it is vanishingly small. It’s why I have talked myself out of it so many times. But every so often something else crazy happens at work and gets me thinking maybe I’m being a cheap skate. I mean, I pay for all kinds of insurance that has worse cost to potential benefit ratio.

Again, I don’t want this to digress. I express no opinion on gun ownership in this thread.

 

Obviously it depends, but if I were at my desk at rest position, and had it under my desk,  I could have it on and ready to run in under 5 seconds. Is it enough time? Maybe. Could they sprint from the door to my office before anyone even knew what was going on and slice my throat? yes, easily. There is no perfect solution to my safety that does not disrupt patient care, and I’m not willing to do anything to slow patient care for my safety. There is no full proof plan either. If someone wants to get me bad enough and they have a lick of sense, they will. This would be but a small tip of the scale.

as far as coverage, obviously many vital arteries are exposed. I’m not planning on wearing the body armor and going on the offensive, but stay at a safe distance while I try to verbally calm the patient, or to protect another patient or staffer providing me with increase survival odds. I do have I can tourniquet myself no problem and suture ambidextrously. I cannot crack my own chest. 

I see your point though, more through the lens of “is shelling out $700 worth a small advantage that most likely will never get used”

 

" I would hope people would be aware of my displeasure if they created more work for me by causing serious trauma to a patient " 

The very second this person elected to become a threat to the lives of the ED staff they cease being a patient an become worthy of every injury I could inflict upon them and eve more. Yes not PC but I've been in the ED when a patient disarmed a police officer and discharged his weapon as he attempted to flee. Not to mention the "family" that came into the ED to see their recently shot cousin whose name they couldn't recall! Look out for #1 as the "Suits "never will!!

Edited June 3, 2020 by CAdamsPAC

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

3 hours ago, ohiovolffemtp said:

I recommend a mindset change: if a person, patient or not,  is coming at you, your staff, or anyone else in your facility, especially if they have any sort of weapon, they are not a patient until they are under control.  They are a threat.  How to deal with that threat depends on the circumstances, especially the level of danger they are creating.

It was a joke. 

 

3 hours ago, CAdamsPAC said:

" I would hope people would be aware of my displeasure if they created more work for me by causing serious trauma to a patient " 

The very second this person elected to become a threat to the lives of the ED staff they cease being a patient an become worthy of every injury I could inflict upon them and eve more. Yes not PC but I've been in the ED when a patient disarmed a police officer and discharged his weapon as he attempted to flee. Not to mention the "family" that came into the ED to see their recently shot cousin whose name they couldn't recall! Loo out for #1 as the "Suits "never will!!

I have no problem using any force necessary

 

if I were serious, it wouldn’t be the work that would bother me.

[CAdamsPAC]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:26 PM, LT_Oneal_PAC said:

It was a joke. 

 

I have no problem using any force necessary

 

if I were serious, it wouldn’t be the work that would bother me.

You have an FMF Qualification Badge so I would expect nothing less from you. My comments were more directed to others on this board.

Edited June 4, 2020 by CAdamsPAC

[FiremedicMike]

A couple of thoughts from a guy who wears a body armor a decent amount. 
1.  You already mentioned the need was extremely low.  It exists, but not really that much, so keep that in mind.

2. vests that are rated for both stab and bullet are quite expensive.  On that note, the more that they you spend on armor, the more comfortable it is.  I really appreciated it when my department sprung for armor that was near at the top of the price range last time, and oh man is it comfortable.

3. To your comment about keeping it under your desk - you’re taking an already small window of need and making it smaller, IMHO.. 

4. Given 2/3, spend extra to get top of the line so that you have something comfortable to wear.  Also buy it from a place that sells them to cops so that you can have it custom measured and cut for you.

5. Get at least two carriers and wash them daily.  Spray the panels down with fabreeze regularly.  The smell that emanates from between your vest and your body in the summer is.. special.. If you’ve ever wondered why cops are almost always wearing some form of cologne, now you know the secret..

 

With all that said, your money is probably better spent on self defense classes..

[FiremedicMike]

As a side note -  I think I’m reading between the lines that NO ONE who works with you carries a gun at work, ever.  Maybe join the camp of folks who DEFINITELY NEVER (admits to) carrying a gun... plenty of deeply concealable holsters out there...

As with vests, the more you spend, the more comfortable they get.

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

15 hours ago, FiremedicMike said:

A couple of thoughts from a guy who wears a body armor a decent amount. 
1.  You already mentioned the need was extremely low.  It exists, but not really that much, so keep that in mind.

2. vests that are rated for both stab and bullet are quite expensive.  On that note, the more that they you spend on armor, the more comfortable it is.  I really appreciated it when my department sprung for armor that was near at the top of the price range last time, and oh man is it comfortable.

3. To your comment about keeping it under your desk - you’re taking an already small window of need and making it smaller, IMHO.. 

4. Given 2/3, spend extra to get top of the line so that you have something comfortable to wear.  Also buy it from a place that sells them to cops so that you can have it custom measured and cut for you.

5. Get at least two carriers and wash them daily.  Spray the panels down with fabreeze regularly.  The smell that emanates from between your vest and your body in the summer is.. special.. If you’ve ever wondered why cops are almost always wearing some form of cologne, now you know the secret..

 

With all that said, your money is probably better spent on self defense classes..

Good thought about getting it from some place that can special fit. I didn't know those existed. 

Oh yes. I remember "fondly" that smell of my plate carrier after wearing it for 2 months in Uganda. The scary part was when I didn't smell it anymore...

15 hours ago, FiremedicMike said:

As a side note -  I think I’m reading between the lines that NO ONE who works with you carries a gun at work, ever.  Maybe join the camp of folks who DEFINITELY NEVER (admits to) carrying a gun... plenty of deeply concealable holsters out there...

As with vests, the more you spend, the more comfortable they get.

There may or may not be available defense near me....We are the rural midwest after all.

[surgblumm]

I would suppose that if you are in a rig where there is active hostilities from protesters that this would be a necessity. Too many paramedics, firemen and police have been injured or killed during this years riots. Fortanatley, this reality is not a daily occurrence therefor LT"Doc Holiday" is correct in stating that PAs in this particular sub-specialty shhould take a high level self-defense course and teach it to their families prn.

[Joelseff]

Sounds like you need to learn self defense techniques... You should call this guy!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[charlottew]

We had a belligerent guy on the unit once, young guy very strong, he got agitated and started throwing equipment in the room. We hustled out of there, shut the door on him (clear glass door so we could observe him) and called the hospital police. Five minutes later, 2 officers appear - apparently that was the entire campus force on the weekend. 

We're like, don't you have any backup? Fifteen minutes later, half a dozen city cops show up in full riot gear. Much better. We made a plan, then rushed as a group into the room. Cops in riot gear, the rest of us in full PPE. Pin the patient to the bed, put a mask on him (he was spitting), vest, four point restraints, IM haldol (or was it zyprexa?). Very effective.

But it generated paperwork! All of us clinical people had to write and sign reports of what happened, for the police records.

[EMEDPA]

50 minutes ago, charlottew said:

We had a belligerent guy on the unit once, young guy very strong, he got agitated and started throwing equipment in the room. We hustled out of there, shut the door on him (clear glass door so we could observe him) and called the hospital police. Five minutes later, 2 officers appear - apparently that was the entire campus force on the weekend. 

We're like, don't you have any backup? Fifteen minutes later, half a dozen city cops show up in full riot gear. Much better. We made a plan, then rushed as a group into the room. Cops in riot gear, the rest of us in full PPE. Pin the patient to the bed, put a mask on him (he was spitting), vest, four point restraints, IM haldol (or was it zyprexa?). Very effective.

But it generated paperwork! All of us clinical people had to write and sign reports of what happened, for the police records.

where I used to work at an urban inner city trauma center we called this "Tuesday". More often than not we did it without security. a bunch of us behind a mattress, squish them to the wall or floor, B52 in any available extremity, one person per extremity and one for the head with a towel for the mouth. You can take almost anyone unarmed down in a confined space with a unified show of force. It has to be well planned: "you have the right arm, you have the left arm", etc. More often than not unless they are methed out of their minds you can reason with them. I generally say something like "this is going to happen. you get to decide if you walk back into the room or are carried there. walking would be easier for you". 

[ohiovolffemtp]

Unfortunately, the patients that I've had that needed physical restraint until sedation kicked in usually had enough street drugs on board, sometimes were psychotic enough, that reasoning wasn't even possible.  Otherwise, the Ron White quote would work, "I don't know how many people it would have taken to kick my a$$, but  I knew how many they were going to use."

[cc56]

As I was reading this I was thinking you could get the backpacks with the soft armor built in.  You may already use a backpack that you could just add the armor to.  Back packs are much easier to grab and go with, than a vest.  You can  hold it in your hands and cover your upper chest and face.  You could just put the bag on your chest with straps like a typical vest, or wear it like a back pack.  Easier to put on while moving.  Could be used as a distraction device, maybe even a weapon.  No one usually questions a back pack, so no one knows.  You start putting on a vest, you really stick out.  If you were not a target before, maybe now you are. 

 

 

Ahhhh the B52 for the out of control! 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

On 2/12/2021 at 1:36 AM, cc56 said:

As I was reading this I was thinking you could get the backpacks with the soft armor built in.  You may already use a backpack that you could just add the armor to.  Back packs are much easier to grab and go with, than a vest.  You can  hold it in your hands and cover your upper chest and face.  You could just put the bag on your chest with straps like a typical vest, or wear it like a back pack.  Easier to put on while moving.  Could be used as a distraction device, maybe even a weapon.  No one usually questions a back pack, so no one knows.  You start putting on a vest, you really stick out.  If you were not a target before, maybe now you are. 

 

 

Ahhhh the B52 for the out of control! 

Hey, that’s not a bad idea. Thanks!