jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Okay, I've never come here before and asked for personal advice, but here goes. I realize that this is my decision to make but it would be interesting what others think. Many of you know that I've been trying for . . . well, a few years . . . to create my own headache clinic. After securing an enthusiastic SP 8 months ago, I put my work into high gear. So, for at least the past 6 months I've put in about 20 hours a week working on this. So far, I got state approval for me, not only owning but being the sole provider in my clinic (my SP will work two days a month in a satellite clinic). I've also secured a wonderful location and remodeling is going on at this time in prep (even though I have not signed the lease yet). I've secured (but not paid for yet) my credentialing company, my EHR, malpractice insurance and MA. I've already paid for and achieved incorporation (1200K). I will need a total of 89K for the set up and first six months operation. Of that 89K, 30K will come from my own cash and 59k from a loan. I approached Wells Fargo bank in early December for a business loan. The first time we met, they thought it was slam dunk and it would take 10 business days to get an answer. Well, it has now been 28 business days. I secured the SBA loan guarantee about two weeks ago. However, the Wells Fargo loan officer seemed to stop responding about a week ago. It became very stressful because I was scheduled to sign a lease and my loan still wasn't secure. Today, the loan officer finally responded. It appears that the bank itself is having second thoughts about getting involved because I'm a PA. Understand, this isn't anything about our credit line. We have an impeccable credit history. We have far more equity than the 59K in our house (even in this down market). I also have plenty in retirement but I did not want to liquidate any of the retirement money because of the penalty and just the principle of never touching your retirement. The loan officer once again wanted me to explain (which I've done over and over and over) why a patient would want to see a PA. They can't get their heads around it. They said they would meet again to discuss my case in about 2 weeks from now. So, if you were in my shoes what would you do? Would you sign the lease (committing yourself to an $1400 monthly payment for one year) even without the promise of the loan? If I don't take that suite, there is none as good on our island. Would you keep going with Wells Fargo because you've invested two months with them already? Would you start with a new bank (which I think I am)? Or, despite this being a big dream of yours, would you just throw in the towel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFarnsworth Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 OMG don't throw in the towel! You are breaking ground for all PAs!!!!!! Go with a different bank (I'd have suggested going to several banks but that might not be feasible). Stick to your guns! Is there someone else vying for the space that you are looking at? Could you wait a little bit before you sign the lease? What's the worst that will happen if you do sign a lease and Wells Fargo doesn't come through with the loan? It sounds like you have put your heart and some sweat into this project. Think of how proud you will be when it's up and running. And how many people you will help. This is what PAs are all about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted February 1, 2011 Administrator Share Posted February 1, 2011 Ugh. I would have started with a Credit Union in the first place, but even with their size there's no guarantee that they would be that much better. What is the fee for breaking the lease on the property? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 OMG don't throw in the towel! You are breaking ground for all PAs!!!!!!Go with a different bank (I'd have suggested going to several banks but that might not be feasible). Stick to your guns! Is there someone else vying for the space that you are looking at? Could you wait a little bit before you sign the lease? What's the worst that will happen if you do sign a lease and Wells Fargo doesn't come through with the loan? It sounds like you have put your heart and some sweat into this project. Think of how proud you will be when it's up and running. And how many people you will help. This is what PAs are all about! Man I wasn't even done posting and comments came in. How did hat happen? In short, I've already lost my dream suite due to the delay. The second choice (close second) is next door. After that, the available sites are far inferior. Yes, there are other people in line for these suites and if I waited even two weeks, good chance it will be gone. The worse case? I could be obligated to pay the rent for the year. My lawyers (whose helping me with the lease) thinks if I put the lease in my PLLC name, then legally dissolved the PLLC, the lease would end. But that too would cost a little money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Ugh. I would have started with a Credit Union in the first place, but even with their size there's no guarantee that they would be that much better. What is the fee for breaking the lease on the property? I've banked with Wells Fargo for years (lived in Minnesota before coming where Wells Fargo is king). I've gotten several loans in the hundreds of thousands from them (home loans) and it took a week each time. I thought it would a no brainer with them since we have been loyal customers for 15 years. But if this doesn't work out, I will never do business with them again. I am really sick and tired of them trying to get me to apologize for being a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeediva Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Do not give up! Heck no! You are WAY to close. This is your dream. Try a local bank that is known for working with businesses. Wells Fargo is a pain in the ***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted February 1, 2011 Moderator Share Posted February 1, 2011 new bank, don't sign lease until loan secured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradtPA Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Definitely new bank time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2305 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Make sure you get practice fusion emr as it's free. 59k shouldn't be too hard to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueridge Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Have you personally met with the Wells Fargo branch manager/vice-president -whatever the title (assuming different person from the loan officer with whom you have been meeting)? Better yet, meet with the branch manager and present a very brief (less than a full page) letter explaining why your business plan will work (demand for your expertise and care, etc.) and perhaps provide letters of reference/support from area physicians who refer patients your way? Or, more timely, ask the physicians if you can use them as a reference and then provide the names and phone numbers on the letter. Then, touch on the delay on the loan. Then, ask how speedily approval will be secured as you must sign a lease on the remaining desired property. You should know right away if you must then go to another bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Have you personally met with the Wells Fargo branch manager/vice-president -whatever the title (assuming different person from the loan officer with whom you have been meeting)? Better yet, meet with the branch manager and present a very brief (less than a full page) letter explaining why your business plan will work (demand for your expertise and care, etc.) and perhaps provide letters of reference/support from area physicians who refer patients your way? Or, more timely, ask the physicians if you can use them as a reference and then provide the names and phone numbers on the letter. Then, touch on the delay on the loan. Then, ask how speedily approval will be secured as you must sign a lease on the remaining desired property. You should know right away if you must then go to another bank. Are you kidding? I've met with all the parties at the bank many times in person. Right now I'm mostly dealing with the VP but started with the business bank president. We've had an additional 10 conference phone calls and have exchanged about 80 e-mails over the past two months. I've talked about the details of this dream, my credentials, what being a PA is all about, until I'm blue in the face. I've offered to bring the SP on each visit and they have declined. If the SP was majority owner or if he would guarantee the loan they said they would write the check today. But when I approached him 8 months ago we agreed that he will not get involved in the business end nor financially. I've spoken to two other PAs who started their own clinics and they too said that banks would not loan to them. They throw flowers in the path of a physician who wants to start a new practice, but they can not get their heads around why a patient would want to see a PA. I've discussed this with them in great detail, over and over and over to infinity and beyond! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueridge Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well then, you have answered your own question. Another bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cabkrun Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 From a pre-PA view... After all that hard work, I think you should keep fighting until there is no hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well then, you have answered your own question. Another bank. I just started with a new bank this morning and we will see which one comes through. I still have the hard decision to make about the suite. It is perfect. The only other ones on our island available right now are rat holes. So, do I take the leap of faith and sign the lease, or let it go and play it safe until I have a bank approval? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMSArtist Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Good luck man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Good luck man! Speaking philosophically for a moment, this process has given me a glimpse into the world that women in the 50s faced or those of any minority has (still) faces. Without sounding melodramatic, time and time again as I've battled through this I see the same thing play out. When I've contacted each of the agencies, or each of the vendors (for things like EHR) they start with great enthusiasm. They are welcoming me with open arms . . . and like I said throwing rose pedals in front of my feet. They, at that stage keep referring to me as "Dr." Then, once things get serious, I have to correct them, "I am a Physician Assistant." There is always a period of silence. Then they ask, "Well, we only deal with the physician, whose practice you will be working in." I declare, "I am the OWNER!" They then disappear. This has happened over and over. So, as a PA, rather than having rose pedals throw at your feet, every inch is a struggle. There is razor wire strung across your path at each turn. Starting a practice is hard enough already. But being a PA and trying is at lease twice as hard as nobody wants to work with you. You must kick in every door. You get weary after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted February 1, 2011 Administrator Share Posted February 1, 2011 We ought to make some sort of PA mutual S&L just to fund people like you. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 We ought to make some sort of PA mutual S&L just to fund people like you. :-) You know, I was thinking the same thing. If ever I have the means, I think a PA-Practice start up loan fund would be great. Do the usual credit analysis, business plan scrutiny, have a high standard . . . but not getting emotionally caught up on the fact the dude is a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueridge Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Normally, I am a conservative realist. Your situation brings out the optimist in me. Since the primary suite of choice has slipped away (shows some demand in the area), and the only other suite you appear to be pleased with is still available, and you have come this far is this quest, and aesthetics can only help your practice/business both in helping to both set a pleasant climate in the office as well possibly securing the loan, ..... would the lease allow for you to sublease for possible backup? Of course, if not, worst case scenario, out of pocket for an amount comparable to that of a good used car. So, ask yourself if you could afford to kiss that amount goodbye in order to pursue a dream. On another note, for some reason, regarding the how bankers seem lackadaisical about your business plan due to you being a PA, it reminds me of the initial repulsion homeowners at the idea of having an indoor privy/toilet, Edison's long standing opposition to Telsa's idea of alternating current, and reluctance to cooking with electricity since one could not see the flame. The bankers, ideally, should see it as a sound business venture, one with a rather already established record of success, and one with a future due to a consistent demand for such services. Hoping for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajnelson Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 After coming this far, I can't believe securing the money is the one thing holding you back! I would say if you are fairly confident the money will eventually come through, sign the lease. You wouldn't want to lose the nice office space because of this. The conservative in me, though, keeps saying wait it out. By the way, awesome job in all that you have done trying to get this up and going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted February 1, 2011 Moderator Share Posted February 1, 2011 Have you considered just getting a line of credit or second mortage on the house? Might be a LOT less headaches and the bank is happy as they have equity to collateral..... maybe offer it to well fargo (yeah sure sucks but the saying in for a penny in for a pound comes to mind You are succeeding where others have failed or never even gone - this is to be set backs expected but you are doing it and that is an amazing testiment to both you skills as a PA and a business person!!! Hang in there and show them how right your are! BTW I would not touch retirement funds, but maybe you can put them up as collateral? or have your doc cosign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmj11 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Have you considered just getting a line of credit or second mortage on the house? Might be a LOT less headaches and the bank is happy as they have equity to collateral..... maybe offer it to well fargo (yeah sure sucks but the saying in for a penny in for a pound comes to mind You are succeeding where others have failed or never even gone - this is to be set backs expected but you are doing it and that is an amazing testiment to both you skills as a PA and a business person!!! Hang in there and show them how right your are! BTW I would not touch retirement funds, but maybe you can put them up as collateral? or have your doc cosign? What makes this hard to understand is that my house is collateral. We have about 250K clear on the house and the total business loan is for 57K PLUS the loan has a SBA backing. Still Wells Fargo doesn't feel comfortable (so far) with the PA owning the clinic. I did talk to my CPA at lunch. I could access my 401 K without the penalty because I would be leaving my old job and am 55. So that could my last ditch effort, if my wife agrees. She also told me about an intriguing investment group. You roll over your IRA to them. They set up a lending company with your own money. Then they lend you the money and you pay it back, with interest, to your own personal bank. The bank has hounded me to get the SP to co-sign the loan. The day we had dinner, 8 months ago, and I shared my vision. He was excited but said, "Please don't ask me for money or to cosign anything." I promised I would not and will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookspa Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do. good luck and godspeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firemedic13 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I wish I was already an attorney... I would totally have a "chat" with your bank. BS discrimination on their part. If you have shown them you can make money and are credit worthy, frankly, it shouldn't matter if you were setting up a headache practice or a retro-themed hot dog restaurant that only sells tofurkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browndog Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I don't get it. I worked for an NP who used bank loans extensively (much more than 60K) to open 3 rural urgent care clinics. I know of several other NPs who have done the same. Is there a local bank that would be more receptive to a long term relationship on the island?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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