Do you REALLY want to be a PA?

[pajourney]

If you are having trouble answering why you want to become a PA, check out my blog post on the topic.  It might help you on your interviews and essays:

 

http://pajourney.com/2015/01/07/why-do-you-want-to-become-a-physician-assistant/

[paporzelt]

Mktalon, Please do not tell crazy people they are not understanding the point, it makes them crazier then they were before you said it.

Here's my point, being a great provider has got next to nothing to do with medicine. Counter intuitive I know but true. The things that make us great providers do not come from a book, many of these things come from life (that's code for experience) and they are terrible and I wouldn't wish them on anybody, but they temper us and humble us and make us better people. Can we listen to our patients? That is can we shut up long enough for them to tell us what's wrong with them (studies tell us no) I don't mean to push this whole age thing, I too knew everything when I was 28 only when I awoke on my 40th birthday I forgot it all and what was left in it's place was experience. I guarantee you, as smart as you are at 28 it is in experience that you will find your greatness. I'm not talking about the medical experience, I'm talking about someone who's had the bad days, the patients that despite your perfection and doing everything flawlessly go south quickly and irrevocably and you feel like you don't want this job for all the money in the world, or the other days when you get it right and people smile and get to go home to their families and you feel so good you'd do the job for free. The point, my good man, is if I had a 40 year old Paporzelt who had experienced all that and a 28 year old one who hadn't and they had both just graduated from PA School, they would not be equal. That! Is the point.

 

 

 

 

 

sorry its taken me ages to reply. In response to this.  At the age of 21 my boyfriend commited suicide - i can empathise a lot better than most people can on that subject. . I grew up in a family of heroine addicts and probably know better than most 40 year olds how to deal with an addict, but in 12 years I'll know even better. I know plenty of 40 year olds who have never - and will never experience those things. I've been a PA now almost 4 years, and yes a lot of what I have experinced as a PA has taught me a lot. But I still stand true to what I had to say.

[JohnnyM2]

rev- that may be the best post ever on the pa forum( the check, as promised, is in the mail....)

I also congratulate Rev Ronin for so eloquently expressing an opinion that many of you share. It is, however, just an opinion. The historical basis for it is well understood but we are no longer in the 60s. Becoming a PA is a choice like becoming a nurse, MD, RT or other medical professional. These are all careers where you go to school, get certified, licensed and then get a first job. You don't need to be in a different medical career first. Though the PA path IS an excellent way for many people to upgrade their careers, if they so desire, the corpsman or army medic to PA path is much less common today and, if it were the only viable path, there would be an acute shortage of PAs. WRT EMT to PA, I'm not sure what magic makes all EMTS great PAs. It seems to me that there is a big difference between a Paramedic with 5-10 years of experience and an EMT-B with one or two years. Here, again, I think your views are colored by your own experiences and biases. I have no doubt that you are a very experienced and highly capable PA but that doesn't mean the path you took is the only viable one.

 

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[cm7sus4]

Sorry that I missed this last month, but I thought I'd better respond late than never.

 

The bolded sentence, out of all of your post, demonstrates conclusively that you don't know what you're talking about.  Before you go picking on posts from three and a half years ago (which I still stand by, by the way), you might want to actually read them and understand what they mean by what they say.  I specifically addressed that residents do practice medicine, contrary to the unfounded assumption, repeated above, that only attending physicians practice medicine.

 

Many people, including yourself apparently, don't like me telling people where they belong. That doesn't make my advice incorrect, just unwelcome.

 

Your entire post indicates that you are unfamiliar with the medical school admissions process, which puts you in a rather poor position to tell someone else that they should apply to medical school based on age.  Many PA schools also disagree with you by virtue of required HCE hours on the order of hundreds instead of thousands...this indicates that you don't keep up with the PA admissions process either.  By my earlier logic this means that you are also in a poor position to offer advice about who should go to PA school.  Not sure where you gleaned the bit about residents not practicing medicine.  The reverend Rev has spoken, therefore it is gospel.  Not.

[rev ronin]

Your entire post indicates that you are unfamiliar with the medical school admissions process,

Look, I get that you're not pleased with how I pointed out the logical error in your last post, but please at least try to support statements that you make: what makes you think I'm unfamiliar with the medical school admissions process?  Failure to support your assertion lowers the discourse.  If I've said something wrong, by all means point it out, but please don't just retaliate.

 

Even if this were a tit-for-tat game, which it's not, you're still picking on posts from years ago.  I get the feeling that you're taking this personally, which I find unfortunate.  I'm sure you're a perfectly decent person, even if your posts in this thread are lacking, and to the extent that you feel like I've been attacking you personally instead of your positions and ideas, you have my apologies.

[Nostraadms]

Times are changing, and the PA profession should keep up with the times. There are many people out there who are under 25 and do not have the family or financial support to get through medical school, so they opt for PA school instead. Student debt is real, and students are looking for professions that they can complete in a few years and get a job. I myself would go to med school. I'm 25. I can take a few years to take prereqs like ochem, physics and study for the MCAT, but I also realize my family won't be able to support me much longer...There are realities that we need to face and that is why so many of us chose PA over MD. 
 

[EMEDPA]

Times are changing, and the PA profession should keep up with the times. There are many people out there who are under 25 and do not have the family or financial support to get through medical school, so they opt for PA school instead. Student debt is real, and students are looking for professions that they can complete in a few years and get a job. I myself would go to med school. I'm 25. I can take a few years to take prereqs like ochem, physics and study for the MCAT, but I also realize my family won't be able to support me much longer...There are realities that we need to face and that is why so many of us chose PA over MD. 

 

there are plenty of loan repayment options, both state and federal, as well as military etc to pay for school. if money is the only reason you do pa you should go to med school. let someone else pay off your loans.

[Nostraadms]

there are plenty of loan repayment options, both state and federal, as well as military etc to pay for school. if money is the only reason you do pa you should go to med school. let someone else pay off your loans.

Sure there are repayment options, but still sometimes it just ins't feasible for some people. 

[JohnnyM2]

So here is an interesting aside. I was looking at a site called GoFundMe and found multiple PA-S whining about the rigors of PA education including academic demands, debt, time away from family and significant others, and begging other people to help fund their education. Few received much money outside of friends and family but it made me wonder: Do they really want to be PAs enough to suck it up and make an investment in themselves. Any thoughts?

 

[ICUman]

rev ronin I can't believe they made you a moderator on this site based off your strident and abrasive feedback to other posters. This should not be allowed and it's unfortunate you belittle them.

 

I disagree with many of your points in the OP and am glad that I and many others can create our own paths away from your perceived ideals and rules for the PA profession. 

[rev ronin]

rev ronin I can't believe they made you a moderator on this site based off your strident and abrasive feedback to other posters. This should not be allowed and it's unfortunate you belittle them.

 

I disagree with many of your points in the OP and am glad that I and many others can create our own paths away from your perceived ideals and rules for the PA profession. 

Some people are blessed with the ability to lie; I am not.  I call it like I see it in a straightforward manner.  Some people simply aren't used to hearing the truth, and find it too strident or abrasive.  If you find a time I've ever attacked a poster as a person, rather than disabusing them of unrealistic or inappropriate ideas, tell me and I'll be happy to apologize if you're right.

 

I'm a moderator on this site because I log in at odd ours and clean out spam.  Being a moderator doesn't get my ideas any more traction--and the other moderators and members can and do disagree with me as they see fit. We work together to keep this site a valuable resource even though our individual perspectives differ.

[ICUman]

Good to know.

[DD88]

THANK YOU Mktalon, you took the words right out of my head!

 

Major issue I find with Revs narrow minded approach is not addressing the need for passion! Time and time I have met students who are brilliant, want to become a PA or doctor and have no people skills! Patient care is changing, quality is taking precedents over quantity. If a PA is not in the business to help humanity, care for the wellbeing of their patients, then all the years of experience won't give patients the quality they're looking for. In turn, reputation will dwindle, risk of burning out which then leads to careless mistakes.

 

It wasn't until our son was in the NICU for a month did I discover my passion to help families/patients and to be in the clinical setting! I was there all day everyday, 12 hrs a day, for 30 days by my newborns side. I met families and became close with the hospital staff. Not knowing exactly what I wanted to do,I shadowed a dental hygienist, a dermatologist and finally a PA.

 

We were living off one income and I stayed at home with our son to avoid the high cost of daycare. I went back to school when Alex was only 6 months old. To say a student needs experience with hours of patient care is not a reality for students like me who are moms with young children in today's society! However, being a caregiver such as a mom should count as something!

 

 

It isn't the monetary benefits that drew me in (even though I should be compensated for my skill set, tuition costs, and time), it was leaving the NICU knowing there were families there with their sick children and a personal debt that I long to fulfill! So Rev, your dismissive post missed a huge point, it's the true concept of being a "healer" the way of Hypocrites, is to give back to humanity! What good is a high GPA or GRE score, all the patient care experience if there's no passion in what you're doing?

[rev ronin]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, DD88.  Sure, everyone needs to have a good reason for being in medicine in the first place... but that wasn't the point.  The original post was about whether to go PA or MD, and while there are many differences between the paths and who is best suited to each, passion, to use your term, isn't one of them.

 

At the same time, passion is not sufficient by itself.  You need many other things to succeed as a PA OR as an MD/DO.  I don't think I addressed a lot of those things, like the ability to explain EBM-based therapies in ways that don't either alienate patients or make their eyes gloss over.  I suppose, if one continued to pick on the post, you could say that I didn't talk about the need for emotional centering or physical health, either. (shrug)  Again, the original post is four years old now, and while I might write some of it differently now, it still holds up pretty well.

[EMEDPA]

life experience and passion are certainly important when pursuing a career in medicine, but they can't replace a basic understanding of the culture and language of medicine and an ability to know if someone is sick within 1 min of entering the room, even before hearing them speak. THAT is what you get from real prior medical experience.

[whoRyou]

life experience and passion are certainly important when pursuing a career in medicine, but they can't replace a basic understanding of the culture and language of medicine and an ability to know if someone is sick within 1 min of entering the room, even before hearing them speak. THAT is what you get from real prior medical experience.

Right there is everything ladies and gentlemen ... As E has always said, HCE is sssssssssssssssooooooooo important. Don't wait when you are in school and realize you can't handle blood etc. Find out now before it's too late. 

[volleyballgirl2]

Wow I was excited when I found this web site, I figured it would help me! Instead after reading some of the posts maybe everything I have worked for in my young life is stupid. Taking all AP classes, while maintaining a 4.0, finishing high school with a 99 + GPA.  Volunteering in varies medical fields to have a understanding of the profession.  I do understand with age comes wisdom but it is not everything.  I think a lot has to do with the individual.  You guys are old didn't you ever watch  "Doogie" Howser? ;)

[EMEDPA]

I was doogie howser...emt at 17, medic at 22, pa at 27.....:)

[whoRyou]

I was doogie howser...

Doogie Howser Opening ... 

[JohnnyM2]

EMEDPA and REV, Having spent a couple of years on this forum, one thing I have learned is that the PA profession is changing at a fairly rapid pace. You may think that is bad, or maybe you actually embrace it, but that doesn't appear to be the case. I read on the forum, just recently, that California is about to add three more schools, Texas is about to add another school, and many other new schools have recently, or are about to start, accepting new students. Other schools are expanding the size of their programs. Where will these students come from? How many experienced EMTs have enough desire to become a PA that they can retake old courses, fund PA school, and endure the rigors of a graduate program? Probably no where near enough to fill all the new slots. As the demand for PAs grows, where will they come from? There will always be schools that demand certain levels and types of HCE. I don't think qualified EMTs are losing out to younger students. I know lots of young PA-S that did not want to go to med school.. at all. Others couldn't afford it or the debt and time commitment that comes with it. Saying that several years as an EMT (or some equivalent) should be a requirement seems like saying all Airline pilots should be experienced Naval or USAF aviators. Nice idea, but it just doesn't work that way. I don't disagree that HCE has value or that more is better. I just don't agree that all young people without a prior medical career should go to Med school. Neither, apparently, do thousands of PA students and dozens of PA schools. Today, increasing numbers of new PAs want to specialize, more and more recent grads are interested in residencies. The profession is changing. To whomever asserted that "the students with more experience frequently had to help struggling students without that experience," I would say that is wishful thinking attempting to ratify the essential value of their own background. I know PA students who were scribes ( several, not just one) who are at the very top echelons of their class in academics and clinicals, and I know EMTs who are struggling. Anecdotes should not become generalities. I know you guys aren't going to change your minds and that's OK. You have been very successful and deserve to be recognized for that. However, I think you risk falling behind the curve on this issue.

 

[EMEDPA]

 I don't think qualified EMTs are losing out to younger students. I know lots of young PA-S that did not want to go to med school.. at all. Others couldn't afford it or the debt and time commitment that comes with it. Saying that several years as an EMT (or some equivalent) should be a requirement seems like saying all Airline pilots should be experienced Naval or USAF aviators. Nice idea, but it just doesn't work that way. I don't disagree that HCE has value or that more is better. I just don't agree that all young people without a prior medical career should go to Med school. Neither, apparently, do thousands of PA students and dozens of PA schools. Today, increasing numbers of new PAs want to specialize, more and more recent grads are interested in residencies. The profession is changing. To whomever asserted that "the students with more experience frequently had to help struggling students without that experience," I would say that is wishful thinking attempting to ratify the essential value of their own background. I know PA students who were scribes ( several, not just one) who are at the very top echelons of their class in academics and clinicals, and I know EMTs who are struggling. Anecdotes should not become generalities. I know you guys aren't going to change your minds and that's OK. You have been very successful and deserve to be recognized for that. However, I think you risk falling behind the curve on this issue.

and you would be wrong....I have several friends who are single parents, full time medics for > 10 yrs, gpas like 3.2-3.3 because they are working full time and raising kids and taking classes who can't compete with a 22 yr old who lives with mom and dad, gets an allowance and a free car, volunteers 10 hrs/week as "hce" and can devote 100% to school. these folks don't even get interviews...at many pas schools today it is just a numbers game, the interview a mere formality. gpa > 3.5, min # hce hrs(regardless of quality): you are in.

[JohnnyM2]

and you would be wrong....I have several friends who are single parents, full time medics for > 10 yrs, gpas like 3.2-3.3 because they are working full time and raising kids and taking classes who can't compete with a 22 yr old who lives with mom and dad, gets an allowance and a free car, volunteers 10 hrs/week as "hce" and can devote 100% to school. these folks don't even get interviews...at many pas schools today it is just a numbers game, the interview a mere formality. gpa > 3.5, min # hce hrs(regardless of quality): you are in.

I think that supports my point that the profession is changing. PA schools should want the best candidates. ..those most likely to succeed academically, in clinicals and in PANCE pass rates. If an experienced EMT with a lower GPA can't gain admission, that tells me he/she is considered by the schools as less qualified, despite your insistence that high level HCE is so important. Hey, I don't set the rules. They do. If the comment l referred to about the more (HCE) experienced students helping struggling younger students were the rule, schools would be falling all over themselves to attract those experienced students, in spite of a slightly lower GPA. I am totally in favor of experience. I would rather see you in the ER than a brand new 24 year old grad fresh out of school. But the 24 year old should be doing just fine by the time they are 30. Even more so, with a residency. Then, again, I would rather see that 24 year old grad when s/he is 30, especially with a residency under their belt, than a brand new 35 or 40 year old grad with 10 years EMT experience. I think experience as a PA trumps prior EMT experience. In the end, I don't care how old my PA is. I care about how good they are. If the younger students with less HCE were proving to be less successful, as PAs, than older ones with EMT experience, schools would likely change their admission policies. I think I am correct in saying some schools place a lot of value on HCE while others require very little. If I were the EMT you referred to with a 3.2 GPA, I would apply to the school with you on the adcom. I think many employers must also fail to see the advantage of greater prior HCE. Otherwise, why would NPs qualify for the same jobs as PAs? I am not advocating for less or lower level HCE. I just try to see the world as it is, and I am happy to see the ranks of PAs expanding so that the profession doesn't get left in the dust of the stampeding DNPs.

 

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[EMEDPA]

at least in EM, all the best jobs go to PAs>NPs and more experienced >less experienced. anybody can do fast track. if you want to practice on the cutting edge of the specialty (solo coverage, main dept without presentation requirements, etc) you pretty much need a strong prior background in em OR an em residency.

[db_pavnp]

If your medic friends are passionate about becoming providers and PA schools are too snooty about GPA to look at them, the nursing pathway appears more amendable to their situation.  Let them be the PA profession's loss instead of their own misfortune.

[EMEDPA]

many of them end up becoming RNs (with ADN degrees) or RTs.