Do you REALLY want to be a PA?

[EMEDPA]

1 - Low level pay of a military medic can do it thoroughly. Everything that a scribe does and much of what surgeons on down do.

2 - Low level pay of an EMT or Paramedic can do it quite well too.

3 - RN, CNAs, PCTs, MAs, Phleb's, RT's et. al.

 

I can hire a high school kid that can type and they can jot down what a doctor/PA says. It's a completely different series of skills to put your hands on someone and have the buck stop with you on whether or not they leave your care from injured, paralyzed to dead.

totally agree. scribe = mobile transcriptionist + shadowing. better than nothing but not really hce.

[Staplemyfoot]

I believe that paid health care experience is certainly useful as a PA, but if I had to choose between these two providers:  A)  5 years MA experience + 1 year PA experience, vs B) 0 years paid health care experience + 6 years PA experience, I would choose B in a heart beat.  The fact is, PA's diagnose, prescribe medicine, etc.  These are duties that most people who apply to PA school with paid health care experience did not have to perform.    

[EMEDPA]

I believe that paid health care experience is certainly useful as a PA, but if I had to choose between these two providers:  A)  5 years MA experience + 1 year PA experience, vs B) 0 years paid health care experience + 6 years PA experience, I would choose B in a heart beat.  The fact is, PA's diagnose, prescribe medicine, etc.  These are duties that most people who apply to PA school with paid health care experience did not have to perform.    

medics/nurses/RTs do have to diagnose to some extent. they do a lot of their work without first getting orders from a health care provider.  

[QuirkyMedKid]

It's nice and all that you put emphasis on the HCE being important but as a "youngster", I feel slightly insulted that I appear not to be competent enough to be what I want to be. I do NOT want to be a doctor. I do NOT want to go to medical school. I want to be a physician assistant, and I more than realize my road will be hard. I am not the best and brightest of my class. I am not seasoned in anything. I am not the little miss perfect president of everything like all of the rich, overachievers I compete with on a daily basis. I can tell you one thing, though. I will fight tooth and claw to get to my goal. I'll fight youngsters and elders alike to reach my goal; more importantly, I'll fight myself. Do you know how hard it is at the present to be trying to achieve a good GPA and get an HCE job? Do you know how many nights many of us youngsters lay awake thinking about what we're going to do after our undergrad if things don't work out? I can't get a job as a phlebotomist because so many older people like you are picked because you have more experience than me. I go home in the summer where no one in the health care job wants to hire me because I'm "temporary" but I don't have the money to stay in my college town and work because I'm paying for my own college. You have seriously overlooked this kind catch twenty-two for the youth. This field is not for the old. It's for anyone who's got enough strive. I know the odds are against me but I'm going to try anyway. You know why? Because I want to help people in a profession that suites my personality and interest in medicine. I'm not here for the money, I'm not here for prestige. I'm here to help people in a career where I won't have to worry about finding work. I don't want to be a doctor because I want greater flexibility of specialty. I don't want to be an NP because I prefer medical model education to nursing model education. I know what I want, and I don't need HCE to tell me (though I will still gain some, of course).

 

I do not mean to be rude, OP. However, a lot of us younger pre-PA students have a lot of anxieties and for someone to tell us that the older ones get all of the cream in the milk is ridiculous. The older ones already have all of the jobs so to say you're going to take away our chances as well lights my fire a little bit.

 

If this comment is offensive to anyone, I apologize. I am merely stating a very strong opinion is all

[ceschlorff]

It's nice and all that you put emphasis on the HCE being important but as a "youngster", I feel slightly insulted that I appear not to be competent enough to be what I want to be. I do NOT want to be a doctor. I do NOT want to go to medical school. I want to be a physician assistant, and I more than realize my road will be hard. I am not the best and brightest of my class. I am not seasoned in anything. I am not the little miss perfect president of everything like all of the rich, overachievers I compete with on a daily basis. I can tell you one thing, though. I will fight tooth and claw to get to my goal. I'll fight youngsters and elders alike to reach my goal; more importantly, I'll fight myself. Do you know how hard it is at the present to be trying to achieve a good GPA and get an HCE job? Do you know how many nights many of us youngsters lay awake thinking about what we're going to do after our undergrad if things don't work out? I can't get a job as a phlebotomist because so many older people like you are picked because you have more experience than me. I go home in the summer where no one in the health care job wants to hire me because I'm "temporary" but I don't have the money to stay in my college town and work because I'm paying for my own college. You have seriously overlooked this kind catch twenty-two for the youth. This field is not for the old. It's for anyone who's got enough strive. I know the odds are against me but I'm going to try anyway. You know why? Because I want to help people in a profession that suites my personality and interest in medicine. I'm not here for the money, I'm not here for prestige. I'm here to help people in a career where I won't have to worry about finding work. I don't want to be a doctor because I want greater flexibility of specialty. I don't want to be an NP because I prefer medical model education to nursing model education. I know what I want, and I don't need HCE to tell me (though I will still gain some, of course).

 

I do not mean to be rude, OP. However, a lot of us younger pre-PA students have a lot of anxieties and for someone to tell us that the older ones get all of the cream in the milk is ridiculous. The older ones already have all of the jobs so to say you're going to take away our chances as well lights my fire a little bit.

 

If this comment is offensive to anyone, I apologize. I am merely stating a very strong opinion is all

I don't think this "everyone's out to get me" attitude is going to get you very far....everyone has challenges and hurdles they have to overcome no matter their age or background (I paid my way through college as well...I worked full time along with being a full time student, I just made sure my jobs were in healthcare to get my hours...physical therapy tech, CNA, etc although I did work retail jobs as well)...everyone has anxiety, that's normal...but don't focus on what all these other applicants have...focus on your own application and how to improve it. Most schools look at the whole application so if one aspect of your application is weak (like HCE) " beef" up other aspects of your application.

 

The people on these forums are just stating suggestions and insights from their own experiences.

[ceschlorff]

Also, shadowing a PA is another great idea even though it's not hands on...you'll at least see what a PA does on a daily basis and schools like that...they want to see that you know what it means to be a PA and that you know what you're getting yourself into...

[AAmbrosino]

Hey there Pre-PAers! In line with this thread topic, I keep a weekly blog in which I write about my life in and out of PA school. I'm currently a (26 year old) 1st year, 2nd session PA student at Touro University of Nevada, and loving it. Anyway, some of you may be curious to read about what to expect of your academic/social lives during school, so feel free to check out the blog! Here's a link: reviewofsystems.wordpress.com. 

Got specific questions? PM me or reply here! Like what you read? Follow me! Best of luck to you all! No matter your age or HCE, follow your bliss. 

- Anthony Ambrosino, PA-S

[Lizzilou]

This is a poor thread to have pinned in the pre-PA forum. Very negative, judgmental and paints the forum in a very unpleasant, very backbitey light. Probably ought to reconsider having it at the top of the forum.

[JohnnyM2]

For those of you who have slogged through all 300+ posts on this thread I would offer this for your consideration. The 120 or so PA schools in the US think they have a pretty good idea what it takes to become a successful PA and they can be as selective as they want since each school gets over 100 applicants for every opening. None of them require more than about a year of HCE and some require none at all. As for pre-PAs asking about minimum GPAs, GRE scores and other pre-reqs, these seem like logical questions; not because they want to see how little they can get away with but rather because they are trying to see how they stack up in a very competitive process. Sure, many PAs get out of school a bit wet behind the ears. So what? That's true of virtually every profession. We've all been there and we all grow into or jobs....without doing any damage along the way.

Speaking as someone considerably older than Rev Robin, I have a great belief in the value of life experience, but also a great belief in youthful enthusiasm, dedication and energy. Perhaps the older PAs could take a leadership role in helping the newbies to become successful instead of castigating them for taking up slots in PA schools. For all you young pre-PA men and women pursuing a PA career, and for older ones also, I know you are about to embark on a difficult journey. If you have the passion, the fortitude, the intellect and the humanity to succeed, I wish you all the luck in the world and encourage you to pursue your dream, and never let some stiff old grumpus stand in your way.

 

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[EMEDPA]

 The 180 or so PA schools in the US think they have a pretty good idea what it takes to become a successful PA and they can be as selective as they want since each school gets over 100 applicants for every opening. None of them require more than about a year of HCE

now > 180 programs, several of which require > 2000 hrs ( for example U.WA requires 4000 and typically avgs around 8000 in entering classes).

[rev ronin]

That, and the number of applicants per seat is far from 100.  At Pacific this year, it was about 25-30 per seat, and that's for a reputable, established PA program in a region that doesn't have a lot of them.

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

^^^

[JohnnyM2]

Great to hear the number of programs is expanding and, if the schools want to set more difficult criteria for acceptance, that is their prerogative. I have noted that programs are becoming increasingly exclusive and that may well be good for the profession. I know several PAs who tell me they probably couldn't get accepted today. Perhaps true but now they have experience. None of this changes my position that candidates should not be discouraged because of their age. If the schools don't think they are ready, they won't get in. BTW, there are seven PA Programs in texas: Baylor and six public schools (not counting the military). They take between 40 and 90 students and typically get 800 to 900 applicants so my ratio was wrong and should have been "more than 10 applicants per slot." My bad and apologies to anyone scratching their head about the obvious error.

 

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[rev ronin]

I have noted that programs are becoming increasingly exclusive and that may well be good for the profession. I know several PAs who tell me they probably couldn't get accepted today.

Exclusive? If you mean that they're looking more at grades and less at experience... I wouldn't call that exclusive.  I'd call that a sea change in who is recruited into this profession, and I agree it's not positive... but I don't know that I would call it exclusivity-based.

[JohnnyM2]

Exclusive? If you mean that they're looking more at grades and less at experience... I wouldn't call that exclusive. I'd call that a sea change in who is recruited into this profession, and I agree it's not positive... but I don't know that I would call it exclusivity-based.

Call it selection criteria if you prefer. The point is that I reject the notion that the young should only go to med school and that PA school should be reserved for older candidates with 20 years of life experience. At the same time, it does puzzle me that some programs have no requirement for prior HCE. It seems to me that a year or two of HCE can help newly minted PAs find their first job. For example, it would seem that a new PA with 2 years of relevant ER experience would make a new PA more attractive to an emergency department. Conversely, I'm not sure why a new PA with 20 years prior experience as a physical therapist or ekg tech would be seen as more attractive to an ED employer. (Nothing against either of those professions.)

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[Aspiring PA]

Hi,

 

I would like to ask if I could change my path from becoming an accountant to PA.  currently a freshman in college, pursuing accounting.  But I feel like I would like to be a pA  and work with patients rather than with clients by being an accountant.  How would I go about it?  Do i have to take any subject SATs in Bio, Chem, and any other sciences while in college??   how difficult is the PA program, and day to day experiences? 

 

Any responses, experiences, suggestions, questions comments are welcome!!

 

Thanks!

[warhorse]

It is a sea change in the profession JohnnyM2, amounting to a rejection of it's own roots.  When this profession was created at Duke it was specifically intended to take people with extensive, practical medical experience and upgrade their capabilities and scope of practice.  This field was created for non-traditional students, not (very bright) youngsters that just graduated from a biology program.  In fact, it's getting harder and harder for someone who would have been a perfect fit ten or twenty years ago to enter the profession.  I have had conversations with more than one admissions counsellor that told me their program had been changed to accommodate the traditional student rather than the original PA candidate.  The schools believe they are responding to changes in the applicant pool, but I have found that corpsman and medics are never informed that this path exists.  It seems to me that the schools, especially the newer ones, have just taken the path of least resistance in using traditional recruiting methods.

[EMEDPA]

It is a sea change in the profession JohnnyM2, amounting to a rejection of it's own roots.  When this profession was created at Duke it was specifically intended to take people with extensive, practical medical experience and upgrade their capabilities and scope of practice.  This field was created for non-traditional students, not (very bright) youngsters that just graduated from a biology program.  In fact, it's getting harder and harder for someone who would have been a perfect fit ten or twenty years ago to enter the profession.  I have had conversations with more than one admissions counsellor that told me their program had been changed to accommodate the traditional student rather than the original PA candidate.  The schools believe they are responding to changes in the applicant pool, but I have found that corpsman and medics are never informed that this path exists.  It seems to me that the schools, especially the newer ones, have just taken the path of least resistance in using traditional recruiting methods.

agree with all of above. I probably would not get in to pa school today. the profession is slowly squeezing out traditional experienced candidates through increased academic requirements that do not make for a better clinical student. we are losing experienced applicants, the heart and soul of the profession.

[PACdan]

PA schools have expanded to fill a need for healthcare providers that the med schools were failing to produce at a sufficient rate. In the process PA schools have made themselves more attractive to younger science and alternative undergrads interested in medicine. Chalk it up to medical schools being too rooted in their own dogmas to change (just happening now with the new MCATs and class sizes). But alternative medical programs have stepped up and seized the cash cow.

[EMEDPA]

if I was a 22 yr old today I would go to DO school, not PA. required grades and prereqs are about the same. the only difference is the MCAT, and DO programs are much more forgiving of scores in the 22-26 range. the opportunities for a physician are significantly > than those for a PA in all respects. if worried about a "tough residency" do a cush FP residency. I am in the hospital now more than many of our residents. if worrried about working too hard and not having family time work 20 hrs/week as a doc and make more than a pa working full time. there really is no down side to going the doc route in 2014.

[whoRyou]

agree with all of above. I probably would not get in to pa school today. the profession is slowly squeezing out traditional experienced candidates through increased academic requirements that do not make for a better clinical student. we are losing experienced applicants, the heart and soul of the profession.

From what you said EM you make it sound like it's all about numbers; PANCE rates and the mighty George Washington's  I hope I am reading this wrong because if that is what you meant - I think WE will be hurting rather than helping the medical profession  

[EMEDPA]

From what you said EM you make it sound like it's all about numbers; PANCE rates and the mighty George Washington's  I hope I am reading this wrong because if that is what you meant - I think WE will be hurting rather than helping the medical profession  

I think we are cranking out more lower quality grads than 10-15 years ago. they are fine as "assistants" but very few are ready to hit the ground running without a residency or formal clinical teaching period, which most SPs are unwilling to provide. and it's not just PAs, I think the quality of NP grads is going down as well with the advent of direct entry programs.

[PACdan]

if I was a 22 yr old today I would go to DO school, not PA. required grades and prereqs are about the same. the only difference is the MCAT, and DO programs are much more forgiving of scores in the 22-26 range. the opportunities for a physician are significantly > than those for a PA in all respects. if worried about a "tough residency" do a cush FP residency. I am in the hospital now more than many of our residents. if worrried about working too hard and not having family time work 20 hrs/week as a doc and make more than a pa working full time. there really is no down side to going the doc route in 2014.

 

It's a compelling argument. To steal and modify your saying slighty: "PA school is 2/3 the material of med school, in about 1/2 the time, for 1/3 the pay afterwards."

If I wasn't in my late twenties with other comorbidities :), I might have made a push for DO/MD school. From a purely financial standpoint there is something to be said for looking at the NPV of a PA v. Doc path. They will always make more, but lifetime income differences aren't so astronomical as to disincentivize PA school. I think the main problem (from reading here) will be finding a place in which I can "practice to the fullest of my abilities". I know it will be a search, but I'm confident it will come in time.

[EMEDPA]

 I think the main problem (from reading here) will be finding a place in which I can "practice to the fullest of my abilities". I know it will be a search, but I'm confident it will come in time.

 

if you work on it, you will get there. for many folks, PA works fine because they just want a M-F job that pays 90-110k and they don't really need to be challenged at work. they would be just as happy doing other work for the same money. It has never been about money for me, it has been about doing more. The last week of PA school they asked our class what a good starting salary for a PA would be. we all said around 40k, which was only slightly more than most of us were making as medics/nurses/rts at the time. our success as a profession has also been a curse because PA is now seen as the easy way to a medical career with less investment in time/money. it really should be viewed as an avenue for experienced folks to expand their capabilities, not a way for 22 yr old bio majors to avoid taking the mcat. It took me over ten years to be allowed to do the things I did as a paramedic as a PA. If I had known that going in, I never would have done it. part of my problem was that I had good pa role models in good jobs, not role models in typical pa jobs with severely limited scope of practice and autonomy. I went from intubating pts as a pa student to working in fast track. major downer. I just assumed docs would give me a chance to prove myself with sicker pts. They never did so I had to relocate multiple times to multiple different states in the search for an appropriate scope of practice and autonomy. I finally found it but it took over a decade for a job I feel I could have doone shortly after graduation from pa school.

 

[whoRyou]

It's a compelling argument. To steal and modify your saying slighty: "PA school is 2/3 the material of med school, in about 1/2 the time, for 1/3 the pay afterwards."

If I wasn't in my late twenties with other comorbidities :), I might have made a push for DO/MD school. From a purely financial standpoint there is something to be said for looking at the NPV of a PA v. Doc path. They will always make more, but lifetime income differences aren't so astronomical as to disincentivize PA school. I think the main problem (from reading here) will be finding a place in which I can "practice to the fullest of my abilities". I know it will be a search, but I'm confident it will come in time.

My feelings exactly. I wish I could go back in time and be in my 20s <SIGH>