beattie228 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I am just curious what state are PA's making 40,000/year and what specialty? Seems awfully low... The OP didn't state they'd be making 40K a year, but rather that they would be making 40K less than they did in IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted January 30, 2013 Author Administrator Share Posted January 30, 2013 I am just curious what state are PA's making 40,000/year and what specialty? Seems awfully low... Reread my post. I'm making far more than $40k, I'm making $40k LESS than I did before I started PA school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patachok Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Ah... my bad! Long hours at work and in school make me miss details... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidEyes Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) I am a PA applicant and have been pursuing this for the passed 3 years. From day one my goal was to do something that made a difference in my community. Now that I'm receiving offers for interviews and feel it is actually happening, I'm feeling uncertain about actually becoming a PA. Another reason for this is because for the passed year I have had an interest in IT with it pulling my attention more and more away from my interests of becoming a PA. I have always loved technology, science and math. I have a lot of HCE and have worked with and shadowed PAs. I am worried about the burn out factor, the possible frustration of dealing with noncompliant patients and the changes in medicine on the horizon including over-saturation in the PA field. Just recently I have had an offer to enter the IT field at a fortune 500 company making great money, great hours, further education and a great start into the industry. I think about the potential there is to expand by melding my HCE and IT into becoming a marketable candidate into the possibility of healthcare IT role. In addition to my HCE, I am currently an Army Reservist that would benefit into both careers in the future. Both fields will be needed and have the same income potential but I feel that IT may provide me more time for a life away from work. I am also weighing these options because I wouldn't have to move away from home, be away from my family, take on debt, and be less stressful now and probably in the long term. Although I would be not be making a direct impact on people I would be helping to maintain important infrastructures for them but also be able to give back in volunteerism away from work if I felt the need. Overall, I want something that I enjoy doing but affords me the time to have hobbies and family life. Recently, I spoke to a physician friend of mine who feels that eventually medicare will have more restrictions on what PAs can do and not provide coverage if a PA does certain procedures. He also feels that PAs will be over worked in the next few years and that there may be over saturation of PAs eventually as well. What do you guys think about this? Why did rev ronin and others leave the IT field and become a PA and do you ever have regrets? Edited February 7, 2013 by LucidEyes typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted February 8, 2013 Author Administrator Share Posted February 8, 2013 I got bored after 20-odd years in IT. I love my wife, like my car, and decided if it was time to have a mid-life crisis, I was going to change my career on my own terms. I now get paid less money, but instead of what I used to do, I get to practice medicine with supportive MDs and a patient population that is very pro-PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAP1986 Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I am so saddened to hear that there are so many PAs with regrets about not becoming physicians, perhaps due to financial and familial obligations. I can definitely understand that maybe after working for 20+ years with "supervision", that it would be frustrating. I have read (on this and other forums) that there is ultimately a salary "cap" for PAs, the idea of more flexibility/free time is a myth, and that though it is legal to change specialties, it is logistically hard to change specialties. I think there is the other side too though. Someone mentioned earlier that it would be interesting to see how many PAs regret their career choices and how many MDs regret their career choices. I couldn't find anything about PAs, but I did find a survey of physicians. "In an online questionnaire of 24,000 doctors representing 25 specialties,only 54%, said they would choose medicine again as a career, down from 69% in 2011. Just 41% would choose the same specialty again. Only a quarter of doctors said they would choose the same practice setting, compared with 50% a year ago." This is a survey done by Medscape/Web M.D and covered Forbes. http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/04/27/why-do-so-many-doctors-regret-their-job-choice/ I personally am sitting on the fence after reading so much negativity about the profession. I am sitting on acceptances to two dual PA/MPH programs (Emory, Campbell) and one accelerated NP program (Vanderbilt). I picked PA or NP because I like the idea of getting into medicine at a younger age, and I didn't want to sacrifice that many years (especially prime years of my life) to school. If the average person gets 80 years on this planet, 7-10+ is approximately 10% of your entire life. I know "medical school" is "only" 4 years, but let's not pretend being a resident is the same things as being out of school. Y'all are making me want to go to medical school, in spite of all this. I am 26 and have no kids or husband. I don't think I ever want kids. I would be done with medical school at 35+/- 2 (depending on if I could get in to medical school on the first or second round of trying and I need at least a year to finish prereqs, assuming I went into internal medicine or family medicine). I'm down six classes, and if you factor in the cost of applying to medical schools (I estimated I'd want to apply to 10) and MCATs, I somehow would need to magically find $9,000. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friction Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I read this article some time ago, but it really turned me off to attempting med school. I highly recommend that you take a look at it, it's extremely interesting and informative. http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html This, plus a program I watched the other night about money and happiness ($75k in income were the happiest polled), made me realize that PA is a great fit for what I want out of my life. Plus, as Biggie Smalls said, "More money, more problems." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Y'all are making me want to go to medical school, in spite of all this. I am 26 and have no kids or husband. I don't think I ever want kids. I would be done with medical school at 35+/- 2 (depending on if I could get in to medical school on the first or second round of trying and I need at least a year to finish prereqs, assuming I went into internal medicine or family medicine). I'm down six classes, and if you factor in the cost of applying to medical schools (I estimated I'd want to apply to 10) and MCATs, I somehow would need to magically find $9,000. Look at it this way ... you're going to be 40 either way. Now you just need to decide which degree you would be happiest with at 40 and on. I don't know what your story is so I'm not sure if you would meet the HCE requirements which make PA school applicants competitive. Whichever path you choose, you are looking at practicing medicine and that is going to be a lifelong commitment. By the way, your writing is prolific and enjoyable to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAP1986 Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Look at it this way ... you're going to be 40 either way. Now you just need to decide which degree you would be happiest with at 40 and on. I don't know what your story is so I'm not sure if you would meet the HCE requirements which make PA school applicants competitive. Whichever path you choose, you are looking at practicing medicine and that is going to be a lifelong commitment. By the way, your writing is prolific and enjoyable to read. Look at it this way ... you're going to be 40 either way. Now you just need to decide which degree you would be happiest with at 40 and on. I don't know what your story is so I'm not sure if you would meet the HCE requirements which make PA school applicants competitive. Whichever path you choose, you are looking at practicing medicine and that is going to be a lifelong commitment. By the way, your writing is prolific and enjoyable to read. I am glad you like my writing! I love writing. I am in a bind because I have been ACCEPTED to Emory MPH/PA, Campbell MPH/PA, and Vanderbilt NP, and have to choose one of them in the next few weeks, or potentially sit out for 1-2 years to finish racking up prerequisites and then hope to get into medical school on my first try, and then spend that much of my life in medical school. I am very grateful to have been accepted to these programs. I have 3,000 HCE hours from when I was a clinical research assistant at Duke University Medical Center, in which I was conducting neuropsychological assessments with geriatric patients with depression, cognitive impairment, and Alzheimer's Disease. I have one first author publication in a respected scientific journal (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717383), a 4.0 GPA, and a 1320 GRE. While being "young enough" and "qualified enough" (perhaps) for medical school, I do not see the MD route as the only route to happiness. I was very interested in the advanced practice clinician route rather than the MD route because, even if it is less money, and you don't have as much "independence", I place a high value on living life fully and having the most time in my youngest and healthiest years to pursue the things other than medicine that make me feel alive. I love camping, hiking, yoga, and I even teach meditation currently. I want to define myself not only by my work, but also by my hobbies and passions. I have had family members die too young to want to give up the time between 26 and 37. I know I'll be 40 in any case, but that's a lot of camping, yoga, hiking, and life to be missing out while pursuing the MD route. Is this a fundamentally flawed approach to living one's life? Also, I don't see a PA as being "second best" or being "only for those who are not really committed to medicine". Is it not possible to be "really committed to medicine" and also want to enjoy one's younger years? I've spoken with countless PAs here in North Carolina and Tennessee, and all of them feel they have a collegial, supportive, and mutually respectful relationship with their sp. I've spoken with PAs who have been practicing from 1-25 years, in dermatology, neurosurgery, primary care, cardiothoracic surgery, urgent care, emergency medicine, and all of them say they are happy in their career choice and value their relationship with their sp. For some it was a "first career" and for some it was a "second career". I only met one PA, who has been practicing emergency medicine for only two years, who says about once a week she disagrees with one of her sp's choices, and she is angry, and often has to go for a run to feel less frustrated. But I also have been talking to a highly respected cardiothoracic PA here in Nashville (which is generally hostile to PAs) who has been practicing for 9 years in a small regional hospital in Columbia TN, who says his sp treats him as a peer, and he feels like his input is respected. He is constantly giving talks at conferences and meetings, and sits on many quality improvement and patient outcome panels. That sounds like a lot of respect for a "grunt". So, I ask you, in all honesty, is it really so bad to have a supervising physician? Bad enough that you would give up so many years of your life to do it (four of schooling and 3+ of working conditions that would be illegal in any other setting)? I thought PA was the way for me, because I love the medical model, being trained as a generalist, and having flexibility to change specialties, but I am concerned for leadership potential and advancement, and you all make it sound like everyone will eventually "outgrow" being a "dependent" provider and like a bad life choice. I would be living in TN or NC, which have pretty favorable laws for PAs (no chart co-sig in NC and 20% chart co-sig in TN). On the other hand, I hate nursing as a theory, but I see NPs here leading ICUs (as part of a new hospitalist-NP/PA team model rather than hospitalist-resident model), being chief nursing officers, being more involved in hospital policy, and generally having more leadership positions in hospitals. I also know in many states NPs are "independent" providers, but I wasn't sure if that applied to all specialties or just primary care. I don't see myself in primary care. I also don't feel willing to give up so much life (time is the only truly limited resource we have) to be an MD. But I feel my vocation is medicine. So I am stuck. I've been having a really hard time because my father (who is a PhD scientist in marine biology) has been egging me on saying I will "always have regrets" as either an advanced practice clinician or master's level scientist if I don't pursue an MD or PhD. He also says I'm "too young/smart to be a PA", which I find to be untrue (because all the PAs I've met are extremely smart), condescending, and insulting. But it appears, empirically, from the study above, there are plenty of MDs who have regrets too. It would seem to make one's life decisions on fear of regret to be the wrong answer. You can never know what you will regret or will not regret. It would seem all you can do would be to make an inventory of your values at the time you have to make decisions, ask if your planned career path will allow you to achieve your career goals (the dreaded "what do you see yourself ideally doing 10 years out of school?") and act upon that. Perhaps I am young and naive though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iyoojin Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 NAP1986, did you decide which route you wanted to take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waitingblessing Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I have to agree with rev here. U certainly need real hands on real life in the moment hce otherwise u have no clue how to act in precarious situations. Most people on here think they r going b rich and dang near medical docs. I agree that schools r treating the profession as a $ maker for the college taking students with 3.9 GPA who will suck as a pa and deny a 3.0 GPA claiming o the higher GPA will do better on the pance that a bunch of bs. Very sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taotaox1 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) I am so saddened to hear that there are so many PAs with regrets about not becoming physicians, perhaps due to financial and familial obligations. Don't let the bitterness that tends to collect around this forum scare you off. This forum is a great resource and is filled with good people, but it can spiral into a toxic "sky is falling" echo chamber at times. I hear FAR more regret from the MDs I meet than the PAs. I think the phrase "the grass is always greener on the other side" applies. There are some real downsides vs the md path, but you seem aware of them. For me, this was the only option I seriously considered. I am 100% unwilling to give up most of a decade to be an md. I like living the rest of my life too much. My life is not defined by my work. I work so that I can live life to the fullest. I don't have to be the top dog, or the best in my field. I DO have to do work that is fullfilling and brings value/peace/happiness to the world and pays me enough to explore life without slaving away 80 hours a week. For me, pa fit this bill. The way I see it there will be "regrets" with either path, but I prefer the ones associated with being a pa. The math may work out differently for you, but only you can decide that. Edited July 17, 2013 by taotaox1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevInTampa813 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I have to agree with rev here. U certainly need real hands on real life in the moment hce otherwise u have no clue how to act in precarious situations. Most people on here think they r going b rich and dang near medical docs. I agree that schools r treating the profession as a $ maker for the college taking students with 3.9 GPA who will suck as a pa and deny a 3.0 GPA claiming o the higher GPA will do better on the pance that a bunch of bs. Very sad Not so fast partner. I just got accepted a few weeks ago with a 3.05 overall GPA (Granted, i have a 3.65 science and a 3.85 pre-req gpa), and a girl that i interviewed with had "a 3.8" according to her and was not accepted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pafguy77 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Very well put rev ronin! Especially "PA is not a shortcut" and how there are career options in this field. Extremely vital information you've included here, especially for those who may think studying in this field is a cake walk. Quite the opposite. Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted July 31, 2013 Author Administrator Share Posted July 31, 2013 Heh. That was 26 months ago, written right in the middle of my first clinical rotation, and I've now been practicing medicine for 10 months. I'm surprised how well it's actually held up in the crucible of the intervening two years. If I had to go back and rewrite it, I really wouldn't change anything significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmccary31 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Mind if I rant a wee bit here? In the two years and change I've been here, I've been seeing more and more posts from new members that go something along the lines of "I want to be a PA, but how do I get HCE?" or, less commonly, "I want to be a PA, but how do I find a PA to shadow?" Rather than chewing on any particular newbie, here's my generalized response: 1) PA is not an entry-level medical profession. It is a profession specifically crafted to take experienced providers and uplevel them. If you're not already an experienced entry-level (or higher) provider, you probably don't actually want to be a PA. You might think you want it, but how on earth can you know you want to see patients day in and day out if you've never seen a patient in your life? 2) HCE is not "paying your dues" or "checking a box". HCE is an integral part of the reason a pre-PA chooses to become a PA. As an EMT, I was thinking I wanted to go to Paramedic school... until I got to assist in surgery on a medical mission. If you can't point to a specific patient care experience and say "this is when I decided I wanted to practice medicine", then you probably only think you want to be a PA. If you read any of the nonsense articles that said that PA was one of the best jobs in America and that influenced your decision to seek admission to PA school, then you need to think long and hard about why you're really interested. 3) PA is not for the young; they belong in medical school. If you're under 25 and want to practice medicine, go to medical school. It's longer and more expensive, but it's a tried and true way for the young, malleable, and motivated to practice medicine. PA is orchestrated from the ground up to take people who have experience, adult learners, who have already demonstrated competence in limited fields to uplevel their skills and knowledge to the level needed to practice medicine, and are willing to live with de facto caps on their salary and professional respect. If you do the math and the number curves, physicians more than make up for the additional cost in med school over the course of their careers, provided they start early enough. For those of you who think you can make bank right out of school AND have a comfortable, casual lifestyle you desire, you, too, don't get it. 4) PA is not a shortcut. Yes, the school may be shorter chronologically than med school, but that's missing out on two key things: PA school needs far more than just an undergraduate degree (see 1-3 above), and residents really do practice medicine. They do so in conditions that would draw fines if any other workers were subjected to them, for pay that is ridiculously low given their level of responsibility, but they practice medicine. I love the fact that I'm in my clinical rotations now. I love the fact that at 40, there's a career option that will let me bring my existing life skills and knowledge into medicine. I make no secret of the fact that if I'd known how much more fun biological systems were than digital systems, I wouldn't have gone into IT as a first career. 5) If all PA programs respected points 1-4, there would be far less call for mandatory PA residencies and jobs seeking only PAs with 2+ years of experience. 2-2.5 years is not enough to take any random person off the street and shape them into a medical practitioner. If the folks selected don't have enough judgment, scientific acumen, and patient care experience to step into the role of a medical provider after the PA school length, then the selection process is wrong. So by all means: those of you who have HCE, real-life experience, and the smarts to knock the science prerequisites out of the park, please come be PAs. The rest of you, who think you WANT to be PAs but are missing one or more of those three legs, don't try and shortchange the process. It should probably be harder than it is, because somehow they let me into the coolest profession on the planet. So far I only have around 400 hours of direct HCE, and I was a little discouraged about applying to PA school initially because of all the negative feedback I read online about low HCE prior to PA school. Ive completed 120 shadowing hours and still have more specialities to cobserve. Almost every PA that I have shadowed had roughly 1-3 years (not 10-20) HCE prior to PA school (lab tech, phleb, x ray etc) and they have each flourished in their practice and are very well respected. They informed me that PA school doesnt teach nearly as much as your SP will and thats what counts. So maybe we do it differently in Kentucky and maybe these UK grads arent up to your criteria but they seem to be doing very well. Just tired of all the negativity on these forums. I understand the benefits from having more HCE, but just because you dont hit the ground running doesnt mean you cant fully invest in medicine and catch up and even surpass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 1, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 1, 2013 1-3 years is 2000 - 6000 hrs. no one here has a problem with those kinds of numbers. we have a problem with 0-1000 hrs of low level work/shadowing/scribing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morganp Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 What's wrong with scribing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 What's wrong with scribing? You're not responsible for that patient's care and/or aren't physically putting your hands on them doing ANYTHING. The point of rev ronin's rant, and frankly the PA profession, was stated clearly summed up by the statement that the intent of the PA profession is to uplevel those that HAVE EXPERIENCE. Thank you rev for writing this because it's so true. However, as an applicant, I've seen more and more the reduction in actual hands on experience and school's advocating shadowing and volunteering as an acceptable means of acquiring HCE. You're absolutely correct that HCE hours are not paying the dues. You should be doing them and wanting to do them already with becoming a PA being a chance to move up. Finally, I cannot agree with you more with the statement that there is NO WAY you can know that you want to become a PA without having direct knowledge of what they do day in and day out. Shadowing gives you a glimpse, but then watching NASCAR on television doesn't mean you understand what Dale Earnhardt goes through driving a car at 200mph. This year, on multiple occasions, I've heard program directors flat out state that experience is neither a prerequisite of their program nor does it improve your standing in their review. Another program said that their last class had an average age of 23 and less than 200 hours of experience. You've got to be kidding me! I for one am looking forward to clinicals and thankfully feel I have likely dodged a bullet when it comes to training with those that haven't put their hands on another human being until they got to school. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubledown10 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 I agree with some points. A few years ago I started noticing something pretty cool. PA conferences used to be all us middle aged guys, military PAs, crusty types. Now there are all kinds of young, hot grad students running around those things. I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morganp Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 You're not responsible for that patient's care and/or aren't physically putting your hands on them doing ANYTHING. The point of rev ronin's rant, and frankly the PA profession, was stated clearly summed up by the statement that the intent of the PA profession is to uplevel those that HAVE EXPERIENCE. Thank you rev for writing this because it's so true. However, as an applicant, I've seen more and more the reduction in actual hands on experience and school's advocating shadowing and volunteering as an acceptable means of acquiring HCE. You're absolutely correct that HCE hours are not paying the dues. You should be doing them and wanting to do them already with becoming a PA being a chance to move up. Finally, I cannot agree with you more with the statement that there is NO WAY you can know that you want to become a PA without having direct knowledge of what they do day in and day out. Shadowing gives you a glimpse, but then watching NASCAR on television doesn't mean you understand what Dale Earnhardt goes through driving a car at 200mph. This year, on multiple occasions, I've heard program directors flat out state that experience is neither a prerequisite of their program nor does it improve your standing in their review. Another program said that their last class had an average age of 23 and less than 200 hours of experience. You've got to be kidding me! I for one am looking forward to clinicals and thankfully feel I have likely dodged a bullet when it comes to training with those that haven't put their hands on another human being until they got to school. Rich What low level healthcare job can teach you more than scribing? I love scribing. I learn new things every hour. You're saying that doing mindless routine low level work is better experience because you're "physically putting your hands on a patient"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator rev ronin Posted August 10, 2013 Author Administrator Share Posted August 10, 2013 What low level healthcare job can teach you more than scribing? I love scribing. I learn new things every hour. You're saying that doing mindless routine low level work is better experience because you're "physically putting your hands on a patient"? There's one level of understanding that comes with seeing cases and watching great docs (and other clinicians) work and understanding the poetry in their ministrations. There's another that comes with physically touching, feeling, and working with a patient yourself. Applicants should have both, really. CNA work gives little to none of the former, and scribe work gives none of the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMA79 Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 A scribe is just an observer. Being a good PA requires the laying on of hands. Don't wait till your a PA student to learn that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 What low level healthcare job can teach you more than scribing? I love scribing. I learn new things every hour. You're saying that doing mindless routine low level work is better experience because you're "physically putting your hands on a patient"? 1 - Low level pay of a military medic can do it thoroughly. Everything that a scribe does and much of what surgeons on down do. 2 - Low level pay of an EMT or Paramedic can do it quite well too. 3 - RN, CNAs, PCTs, MAs, Phleb's, RT's et. al. I can hire a high school kid that can type and they can jot down what a doctor/PA says. It's a completely different series of skills to put your hands on someone and have the buck stop with you on whether or not they leave your care from injured, paralyzed to dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flutemajorkate Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 This exactly fits me and the reasons I decided to apply to PA school. Any tips on how to highlight this in the narrative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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