Forced To Get Flu Shot or Terminated

[charmstarz]

I just wanted to know how common this was for the employers that all of you work for.

 

I work at a hospital and their policy is that all healthcare workers have to get the flu shot or they will be terminated.

 

I have no problem getting the flu vaccine (I personally prefer the spray because I know someone who has shoulder problems now due to a nurse giving the injection too high, but I digress), but there are people voluntarily leaving their jobs (or getting terminated) because they refuse to get the flu shot.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

[MedicinePower]

Unless one has a very valid medical reasons (or very valid religious reason, supported by documents from their clergy) then the flu vaccine for healthcare workers must be mandatory. The flu might not kill the healthcare worker but it can certain kill their compromised patients in a healthcare setting. I have two family members on long-term catabolic steroid therapy whom are both immunocompromised. I would be devastated if they became ill and possibly died because of a healthcare worker who infected them with an entirely preventable disease.

[winterallsummer]

Policy was get the shot or have to wear a face mask everyday. Exemptions made for some religious reasons.

 

It's a pointless battle IMHO. Just get the shot, who cares? Also flu shot has been linked to decreased heart disease according to one CNN story I read., fwiw. What may I ask is it that bothers you about getting the shot?

[greenmood]

I'm asked to get the flu shot, and it was a policy in place at my previous hospital also.

 

The consequences are not termination. You just have to document your refusal to be vaccinated. You can be terminated for ignoring the policy -IE, not getting the shot AND not filling out the refusal form, but you aren't fired for refusing.

 

I work with a lot of immune compromised patients and as a student I saw patients die of complications of influenza, so I got my jab this year like I do every year.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[charmstarz]

I personally don't have an issue with getting the flu shot and have received it already. 

 

However, I have also seen quite a few people (more than 15 that I know of personally) leave the hospital and 2 were fired for refusing to get the flu shot.

 

I am very certain of those 15 refusing to get the flu shot and left the hospital for that reason alone though.  Five of those individuals were in my department and wrote emails to all of the staff explaining why they chose to leave the hospital (and it was refusing to get the flu shot).

 

For the person that mentioned masks, that is not an option in our hospital.  I was out on leave for several weeks during the time that the hosptial offers the vaccination and was told that I was absolutely NOT allowed to return to work unless I received my flu shot.  Masks were not an option.

 

I was just wondering if this sort of policy is enforced everywhere and how all of you feel about mandatory flu shots. 

 

Do you feel that healthcare workers should be forced to get a vaccine with the alternative being written up or terminated if they refuse?

[SocialMedicine]

15 people at a hospital felt there job was worth less than receiving a flu shot ? wow. what is the culture of your area might I ask ? are these individuals of  specific faith ?  In NY hospitals will require anyone who refuses the flu shot to wear a respiratory mask. This does not seem unreasonable to me.

[ventana]

one of the things that is bothersome to me is when personal liberty overrules that of societal well-being.  Pony up, get the shot, go to work, protect your patients.

 

You can do drugs at work, he can't show up stoned, you can't steal drugs, this is just another rule.  It protects our patients.

 

 

Those people that had a verifiable allergy and those people with verifiable religious reasons against sure fine.  Let them not get injected/vaccinated but they have to wear a mask.

 

 

Sorry for being so short, just don't understand where the objection comes.

[greenmood]

In some patient populations, an unvaccinated provider is as dangerous as one who doesn't wash his hands.

 

I feel like we've had this discussion before. Just get the shot.

[maryfran123]

Issue not going away. Hospitals either have employees vaccinated or lose $$ from CMS. And they are within their rights to fire employees that do not comply.

 

"The Joint Commission, the top health care accreditation agency in the nation, this year enacted a plan to have hospitals train and educate their staffs about the benefits of flu vaccines. Although it is not demanding mandatory vaccinations, the commission is requiring hospitals to show they are progressing toward 90 percent compliance by 2020.

 

Even more significantly, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services issued new regulations that will cut hospital reimbursements by 2 percent beginning in 2015 if they fail to report patient quality measures, including health care worker vaccination rates, starting next month."

[Guest JMPA]

hospitals are not in their right to force substances into their workers bodies or  fire them. this is the United States, loss of personal freedom for the societal good is communism, all those that agree  with forcing vaccination should go to communist china, don't tread on me. i would sue the hospital for violation of civil liberties, healthcare providers do not have less rights then those they care for, give me liberty or give me death

[discogenic]

There must be some legal precedent on this issue by now, no?

 

To walk away from a job because you don't want to get a flu shot seems extreme, but perhaps the thought of 2 years on unemployment, sleeping late everyday, playing Candy Crush to your heart's content, etc is simply too enticing for some.   ;)

[ventana]

hospitals are not in their right to force substances into their workers bodies or  fire them. this is the United States, loss of personal freedom for the societal good is communism, all those that agree  with forcing vaccination should go to communist china, don't tread on me. i would sue the hospital for violation of civil liberties, healthcare providers do not have less rights then those they care for, give me liberty or give me death

 

 

last time I looked keeping your job is not a right - it is a privilege.......   employment is voluntary - you can quit - they can fire you....  every society has rules, if you don't like them you can choose to not follow them but you can be held liable for not following them, ie speeding tickets, not drinking and driving, showing up to work on time.....

 

your private "right" to decline vaccination does not overrule the "right" that a patient has to not be exposed to flu by the very people that are supposed to be helping him

 

as I said - personal liberty does not trump everything else.

 

 

As for "forcing substances"  you eat far worse......

[Guest JMPA]

your liberal viewpoint is incorrect. to discriminate against people for choosing not to put foriegn substances into thier body is wrong and illegal. it is unlawful to fire an employee out of discrimination. i would recommend you read up on work law and ethics. patient health does not take presidence over personal health

[UGoLong]

I don't think we're going to convince you, JPMA.

 

To work in healthcare is to be part of a system that tries to cure people while preventing the spread of diseases. If someone doesn't want to get vaccinations against what can be dangerous diseases, or wash their hands, or take CME, or follow any of the countless other rules we have, that's their right. We can't force them to. On the other hand, they shouldn't be surprised if they can't be part of the healthcare system.

 

We all have rights. You and my immunocompromised patient. You just can't hang out together.

[discogenic]

It won't get you out of your flu shot obligations, but it is worth noting that a Cochrane Review of the evidence for vaccinating healthcare workers to prevent adverse events in elderly long-term care patients wasn't exactly inspiring:

 

"The results for specific outcomes: laboratory-proven influenza or its complications (lower respiratory tract infection, or hospitalisation or death due to lower respiratory tract illness) did not identify a benefit of healthcare worker vaccination on these key outcomes....This review does not provide reasonable evidence to support the vaccination of healthcare workers to prevent influenza in those aged 60 years or older resident in LTCIs."

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD005187.pub4/abstract;jsessionid=2E20CAC53F0D67DE9784F1DD75E63EC6.f02t01

[Will352ns]

To walk away from a job because you don't want to get a flu shot seems extreme, but perhaps the thought of 2 years on unemployment, sleeping late everyday, playing Candy Crush to your heart's content, etc is simply too enticing for some.   ;)

Hell Yes!  Where do I sign up...... Candy Crush is awesome.  :)

[True Anomaly]

your liberal viewpoint is incorrect. to discriminate against people for choosing not to put foriegn substances into thier body is wrong and illegal. it is unlawful to fire an employee out of discrimination. i would recommend you read up on work law and ethics. patient health does not take presidence over personal health

 

Do you have a reference for legal precedent for what you claim, insofar as "work law and ethics"?  

 

And throwing around terms like "liberal" and "communist China" doesn't make your point more valid.  

[EMEDPA]

throwing around terms like "liberal" and "communist China" doesn't make your point more valid.  

 yeah, you are probably just another liberal chinese flu lover....:)

[True Anomaly]

 yeah, you are probably just another liberal chinese flu lover....:)

 I read that initially as "liberal Chinese FOOD lover", and it made me want szechuan tonight for dinner

[Guest Paula]

There must be some legal precedent on this issue by now, no?

 

To walk away from a job because you don't want to get a flu shot seems extreme, but perhaps the thought of 2 years on unemployment, sleeping late everyday, playing Candy Crush to your heart's content, etc is simply too enticing for some.   ;)

Yeah, what a good idea!  I'm stuck on level 91 and my triple A personality compels me to play the stupid game and beat it.  Unfortunately, I already got the flu shot so I can't quit my job..........was hoping the unemployment check could help me buy special boosters.  Sigh.  Gotta get up and go to work tomorrow.  

[Guest Paula]

I'm getting triple A confused with Type A!   LOL!!!!!

[GreatChecko]

I had to do it for PA school, FWIW. You could decline, but had to have a really good reason, like an allergy to the three vaccines being offered and I suppose religious objections, that you worked out with the higher ups. However, the reality was that if you didn't get a flu shot, clinical year just got a little more interested due to the restrictions. 

 

Fair, who knows? But PA school is sometimes like the military, in many ways they own you until you graduate. My life is kept in a filing cabinet in the administration office, to be returned with my diploma. 

[maryfran123]

^{Sorry JMPA , labor law does not support your arguement:}

^{As a general rule, most employers may institute a mandatory vaccine policy, and fire workers for not complying. That's because most employment is at will. That means most employees can be fired for any reason at any time.}

 

 

 

 

 

^{There are some exceptions, though. And they may come into play when it comes to mandatory vaccine policies:}

 

 

• ^{If you have an employment contract with your employer, your employer may be barred from forcing you take a vaccine}

•  
• ^{A collective bargaining agreement (CBA) between an employer and a union may protect some employees. For example, the nurses and hospital staff in Washington and Nevada cases were union members. They claimed requiring them to wear a mask if they're excused from taking the vaccine was a change in the terms and conditions of their employment. Under the CBA, the employers can't make the rule without the approval of the union and its members}
• ^{Anti-discrimination laws, such as Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), may make it illegal. For example, if an employee's religious beliefs and practices prevent her from taking vaccines and other medications, she typically can't be forced to take it and can't be fired for refusing}

 

^{Add in that many states are "at will states" , I believe there are 10-11 states that are "at will" meaning they can fire you for ANY reason, without warning, without prior disciplinary action, without "good cause". In these states, refusing vaccine can lead to termination for refusing the vaccine.}

 

^{Guess the other option for those of you who choose not to get the vaccine for any reason is to take leave for the ENTIRE flu season using PTO or vacation time, that way your rights and the pt's rights are both protected.}

[Guest JMPA]

^{Sorry JMPA , labor law does not support your arguement:}

^{As a general rule, most employers may institute a mandatory vaccine policy, and fire workers for not complying. That's because most employment is at will. That means most employees can be fired for any reason at any time.}

 

 

 

 

 

^{There are some exceptions, though. And they may come into play when it comes to mandatory vaccine policies:}

 

 

• ^{If you have an employment contract with your employer, your employer may be barred from forcing you take a vaccine}

•  
• ^{A collective bargaining agreement (CBA) between an employer and a union may protect some employees. For example, the nurses and hospital staff in Washington and Nevada cases were union members. They claimed requiring them to wear a mask if they're excused from taking the vaccine was a change in the terms and conditions of their employment. Under the CBA, the employers can't make the rule without the approval of the union and its members}
• ^{Anti-discrimination laws, such as Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), may make it illegal. For example, if an employee's religious beliefs and practices prevent her from taking vaccines and other medications, she typically can't be forced to take it and can't be fired for refusing}

 

^{Add in that many states are "at will states" , I believe there are 10-11 states that are "at will" meaning they can fire you for ANY reason, without warning, without prior disciplinary action, without "good cause". In these states, refusing vaccine can lead to termination for refusing the vaccine.}

 

^{Guess the other option for those of you who choose not to get the vaccine for any reason is to take leave for the ENTIRE flu season using PTO or vacation time, that way your rights and the pt's rights are both protected.}

your whole statement is contradictory, maybe you need to read what you write

[ajnelson]

The fact of the matter is, is that this is now being monitored by CMS and the CDC. Hospitals are now getting fined for not being compliant. If you want to work for that company (just like the military), you need to comply with their rules and regulations. Do I like being told I HAVE to do something, no.  In fact, it makes me want to do things less because I don't like being told what to do, but sometimes we have to suck it up and do what is right for those that we are taking care of and in order to keep our jobs.