marilynpac Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 So you're saying that master's level PA's are not up to par with NP's?? That's exactly what I'm saying...in fact PhD PAs aren't up to their level either...what state can we practice totally Indie? How many states can they now practice Indie? Also insurers recognize them over PAs due to their intense lobby....we don't have a lobby...until we have a union with a powerful vocal lobby...we're going to be eating their dust....in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 So you're saying that master's level PA's are not up to par with NP's?? That's exactly what I'm saying...in fact PhD PAs aren't up to their level either...what state can we practice totally Indie? How many states can they now practice Indie? Also insurers recognize them over PAs due to their intense lobby....we don't have a lobby...until we have a union with a powerful vocal lobby...we're going to be eating their dust....in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 So you're saying that master's level PA's are not up to par with NP's?? That's exactly what I'm saying...in fact PhD PAs aren't up to their level either...what state can we practice totally Indie? How many states can they now practice Indie? Also insurers recognize them over PAs due to their intense lobby....we don't have a lobby...until we have a union with a powerful vocal lobby...we're going to be eating their dust....in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyPAntsy Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 But saying you are a "Physician Extender" does describe a PA in terms of another profession. It is saying that you extend the role of a physician, which is a different profession. Also, you did not go to 2 years of medical school; you went to PA school. I understand you are trying to use language that other people can relate to, but this is still very much describing your role in terms of a different profession. It is long overdue for the general public to understand what a PA is, in its own right. Nobody describes nurses as being "like a doctor but I am trained to carry out their orders instead of giving them." People just know what a nurse is. But before anybody jumps on that one... even writing that last sentence was a little difficult for me because people just tend to think that everybody is a doctor, but some doctors are called nurses, some are called Techs, and some are called PAs. So nobody really knows what anybody does... they are just hoping to get some straight answers about what is going on... Yeah I should have been clearer. It's impossible to describe a PA without describing our relationship to a doctor, considering we are tied to one in practice. As for the medical school bit: my program was defined as part of the medical school and along with that some classes and many lectures are the same and some were taken together. PA schools are taught on the medical school model rather than the nursing school model. I see your point, but that definition is what I was taught and it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyPAntsy Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 But saying you are a "Physician Extender" does describe a PA in terms of another profession. It is saying that you extend the role of a physician, which is a different profession. Also, you did not go to 2 years of medical school; you went to PA school. I understand you are trying to use language that other people can relate to, but this is still very much describing your role in terms of a different profession. It is long overdue for the general public to understand what a PA is, in its own right. Nobody describes nurses as being "like a doctor but I am trained to carry out their orders instead of giving them." People just know what a nurse is. But before anybody jumps on that one... even writing that last sentence was a little difficult for me because people just tend to think that everybody is a doctor, but some doctors are called nurses, some are called Techs, and some are called PAs. So nobody really knows what anybody does... they are just hoping to get some straight answers about what is going on... Yeah I should have been clearer. It's impossible to describe a PA without describing our relationship to a doctor, considering we are tied to one in practice. As for the medical school bit: my program was defined as part of the medical school and along with that some classes and many lectures are the same and some were taken together. PA schools are taught on the medical school model rather than the nursing school model. I see your point, but that definition is what I was taught and it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FancyPAntsy Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 But saying you are a "Physician Extender" does describe a PA in terms of another profession. It is saying that you extend the role of a physician, which is a different profession. Also, you did not go to 2 years of medical school; you went to PA school. I understand you are trying to use language that other people can relate to, but this is still very much describing your role in terms of a different profession. It is long overdue for the general public to understand what a PA is, in its own right. Nobody describes nurses as being "like a doctor but I am trained to carry out their orders instead of giving them." People just know what a nurse is. But before anybody jumps on that one... even writing that last sentence was a little difficult for me because people just tend to think that everybody is a doctor, but some doctors are called nurses, some are called Techs, and some are called PAs. So nobody really knows what anybody does... they are just hoping to get some straight answers about what is going on... Yeah I should have been clearer. It's impossible to describe a PA without describing our relationship to a doctor, considering we are tied to one in practice. As for the medical school bit: my program was defined as part of the medical school and along with that some classes and many lectures are the same and some were taken together. PA schools are taught on the medical school model rather than the nursing school model. I see your point, but that definition is what I was taught and it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Sorry that things stink so badly in Ill. From some of your previous posts, appears being a PA in this state is very challenging. Talked to an Ortho/Neuro PA the other day who intially practiced in Ill but now lives in SE and practices in Atlanta and Nashville areas. He mentioned that being a PA now is like night and day vs Ill. Pay, autonomy, opportunity, his patients actually knowing what a PA is and does, etc. He was totally surprised that many patients in the large neuro/spine group actually request and expect to see the PAs (as well as a couple of NPs) in f/u visits and some initial evals. Hope things get much better up there in the future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Sorry that things stink so badly in Ill. From some of your previous posts, appears being a PA in this state is very challenging. Talked to an Ortho/Neuro PA the other day who intially practiced in Ill but now lives in SE and practices in Atlanta and Nashville areas. He mentioned that being a PA now is like night and day vs Ill. Pay, autonomy, opportunity, his patients actually knowing what a PA is and does, etc. He was totally surprised that many patients in the large neuro/spine group actually request and expect to see the PAs (as well as a couple of NPs) in f/u visits and some initial evals. Hope things get much better up there in the future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Sorry that things stink so badly in Ill. From some of your previous posts, appears being a PA in this state is very challenging. Talked to an Ortho/Neuro PA the other day who intially practiced in Ill but now lives in SE and practices in Atlanta and Nashville areas. He mentioned that being a PA now is like night and day vs Ill. Pay, autonomy, opportunity, his patients actually knowing what a PA is and does, etc. He was totally surprised that many patients in the large neuro/spine group actually request and expect to see the PAs (as well as a couple of NPs) in f/u visits and some initial evals. Hope things get much better up there in the future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Savage Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well there is over 150 PA schools right now and there is projected to be 200+ in the next decade... That surpasses medical schools. I am not sure how many NP programs are out there! Thanks to the DNP being mandantory for practice for an NP after 2015 it will take 8 full years to train a NP. So in that gap PA's are going to explode on the scene. We better get organized or it will all fall to hell and I will be a gypsy musician again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Savage Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well there is over 150 PA schools right now and there is projected to be 200+ in the next decade... That surpasses medical schools. I am not sure how many NP programs are out there! Thanks to the DNP being mandantory for practice for an NP after 2015 it will take 8 full years to train a NP. So in that gap PA's are going to explode on the scene. We better get organized or it will all fall to hell and I will be a gypsy musician again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Savage Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well there is over 150 PA schools right now and there is projected to be 200+ in the next decade... That surpasses medical schools. I am not sure how many NP programs are out there! Thanks to the DNP being mandantory for practice for an NP after 2015 it will take 8 full years to train a NP. So in that gap PA's are going to explode on the scene. We better get organized or it will all fall to hell and I will be a gypsy musician again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well there is over 150 PA schools right now and there is projected to be 200+ in the next decade... That surpasses medical schools. I am not sure how many NP programs are out there! Thanks to the DNP being mandantory for practice for an NP after 2015 it will take 8 full years to train a NP. So in that gap PA's are going to explode on the scene. We better get organized or it will all fall to hell and I will be a gypsy musician again... Agreed we need to get organized. However, we will never be as big as NPs since they are also funded by RNs. We should be trying to emulate CRNAs who are completely separate from the rest of nursing and try have successfully lobbied more than any sect of nursing, with less money and fewer members. They do (or at least use to) boast 98% membership in the AANA although. They also suffer the same problem of no one knowing who they are, but have many successful PR campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well there is over 150 PA schools right now and there is projected to be 200+ in the next decade... That surpasses medical schools. I am not sure how many NP programs are out there! Thanks to the DNP being mandantory for practice for an NP after 2015 it will take 8 full years to train a NP. So in that gap PA's are going to explode on the scene. We better get organized or it will all fall to hell and I will be a gypsy musician again... Agreed we need to get organized. However, we will never be as big as NPs since they are also funded by RNs. We should be trying to emulate CRNAs who are completely separate from the rest of nursing and try have successfully lobbied more than any sect of nursing, with less money and fewer members. They do (or at least use to) boast 98% membership in the AANA although. They also suffer the same problem of no one knowing who they are, but have many successful PR campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well there is over 150 PA schools right now and there is projected to be 200+ in the next decade... That surpasses medical schools. I am not sure how many NP programs are out there! Thanks to the DNP being mandantory for practice for an NP after 2015 it will take 8 full years to train a NP. So in that gap PA's are going to explode on the scene. We better get organized or it will all fall to hell and I will be a gypsy musician again... Agreed we need to get organized. However, we will never be as big as NPs since they are also funded by RNs. We should be trying to emulate CRNAs who are completely separate from the rest of nursing and try have successfully lobbied more than any sect of nursing, with less money and fewer members. They do (or at least use to) boast 98% membership in the AANA although. They also suffer the same problem of no one knowing who they are, but have many successful PR campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/faqs 13. Will master's level nursing still exist? Should these programs be phased out? Yes, master’s education will continue. The position statement on the DNP is a vision for the future of specialty nursing education. As specialty nursing education transitions to the doctoral level, the DNP Task Force recommends that institutions consider revise their master’s degree to prepare nurses for other essential roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/faqs 13. Will master's level nursing still exist? Should these programs be phased out? Yes, master’s education will continue. The position statement on the DNP is a vision for the future of specialty nursing education. As specialty nursing education transitions to the doctoral level, the DNP Task Force recommends that institutions consider revise their master’s degree to prepare nurses for other essential roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/faqs 13. Will master's level nursing still exist? Should these programs be phased out? Yes, master’s education will continue. The position statement on the DNP is a vision for the future of specialty nursing education. As specialty nursing education transitions to the doctoral level, the DNP Task Force recommends that institutions consider revise their master’s degree to prepare nurses for other essential roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Savage Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/faqs13. Will master's level nursing still exist? Should these programs be phased out? Yes, master’s education will continue. The position statement on the DNP is a vision for the future of specialty nursing education. As specialty nursing education transitions to the doctoral level, the DNP Task Force recommends that institutions consider revise their master’s degree to prepare nurses for other essential roles. It is semantics... "Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) concentrates on direct care, specifically research utilization, for improved delivery of care, patient outcomes and clinical systems management. It has been recommended as the standard for entry to advanced practice, including nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, nurse anesthetists, and clinical nurse specialists, by the year 2015 by AACN." Since when does such a powerful organization make "recommendations" that they do not intend to enforce. As soon as they push for independent practice in all states and equal reimbursement for all services provided and demand equal treatment on the level of Physicians they will enforce it. Why else would they lay this ground work? Yes Masters for education and research and public health etc. will still exist. If you want to enter advance practice in any form, im afraid that this will be the new "Standard" not recommendation. They are smart about it... they are not trying to cram it down everyones throats, but tactfully and gradually. Think of PA programs... right now you do not have to have a "masters" degree from a PA program, but I challenge you to name the programs left that do not require a masters...? You think that all the NP programs arent going to jump on this one? Maybe there will be a couple of NP programs left that only grant a masters, but by and far, most will follow the "recommendation" and require their program be a "Doctorate" because it is what the recommended stardard is to enter practice. It is all politico semantics my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Savage Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/faqs13. Will master's level nursing still exist? Should these programs be phased out? Yes, master’s education will continue. The position statement on the DNP is a vision for the future of specialty nursing education. As specialty nursing education transitions to the doctoral level, the DNP Task Force recommends that institutions consider revise their master’s degree to prepare nurses for other essential roles. It is semantics... "Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) concentrates on direct care, specifically research utilization, for improved delivery of care, patient outcomes and clinical systems management. It has been recommended as the standard for entry to advanced practice, including nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, nurse anesthetists, and clinical nurse specialists, by the year 2015 by AACN." Since when does such a powerful organization make "recommendations" that they do not intend to enforce. As soon as they push for independent practice in all states and equal reimbursement for all services provided and demand equal treatment on the level of Physicians they will enforce it. Why else would they lay this ground work? Yes Masters for education and research and public health etc. will still exist. If you want to enter advance practice in any form, im afraid that this will be the new "Standard" not recommendation. They are smart about it... they are not trying to cram it down everyones throats, but tactfully and gradually. Think of PA programs... right now you do not have to have a "masters" degree from a PA program, but I challenge you to name the programs left that do not require a masters...? You think that all the NP programs arent going to jump on this one? Maybe there will be a couple of NP programs left that only grant a masters, but by and far, most will follow the "recommendation" and require their program be a "Doctorate" because it is what the recommended stardard is to enter practice. It is all politico semantics my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Savage Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/faqs13. Will master's level nursing still exist? Should these programs be phased out? Yes, master’s education will continue. The position statement on the DNP is a vision for the future of specialty nursing education. As specialty nursing education transitions to the doctoral level, the DNP Task Force recommends that institutions consider revise their master’s degree to prepare nurses for other essential roles. It is semantics... "Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) concentrates on direct care, specifically research utilization, for improved delivery of care, patient outcomes and clinical systems management. It has been recommended as the standard for entry to advanced practice, including nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, nurse anesthetists, and clinical nurse specialists, by the year 2015 by AACN." Since when does such a powerful organization make "recommendations" that they do not intend to enforce. As soon as they push for independent practice in all states and equal reimbursement for all services provided and demand equal treatment on the level of Physicians they will enforce it. Why else would they lay this ground work? Yes Masters for education and research and public health etc. will still exist. If you want to enter advance practice in any form, im afraid that this will be the new "Standard" not recommendation. They are smart about it... they are not trying to cram it down everyones throats, but tactfully and gradually. Think of PA programs... right now you do not have to have a "masters" degree from a PA program, but I challenge you to name the programs left that do not require a masters...? You think that all the NP programs arent going to jump on this one? Maybe there will be a couple of NP programs left that only grant a masters, but by and far, most will follow the "recommendation" and require their program be a "Doctorate" because it is what the recommended stardard is to enter practice. It is all politico semantics my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 the path to np can be faster for those with a prior bs(in anything) and prior a.s. in nursing. look at the umass dnp program: a.s. nursing with bs in any field to dnp in 4 yrs part time. that's 6 yrs of nursing training with 4 of it part time during which one can work. remember a dnp still gets fewer clinical hours than any certificate pa.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 the path to np can be faster for those with a prior bs(in anything) and prior a.s. in nursing. look at the umass dnp program: a.s. nursing with bs in any field to dnp in 4 yrs part time. that's 6 yrs of nursing training with 4 of it part time during which one can work. remember a dnp still gets fewer clinical hours than any certificate pa.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted June 14, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2012 the path to np can be faster for those with a prior bs(in anything) and prior a.s. in nursing. look at the umass dnp program: a.s. nursing with bs in any field to dnp in 4 yrs part time. that's 6 yrs of nursing training with 4 of it part time during which one can work. remember a dnp still gets fewer clinical hours than any certificate pa.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I agree with EMEDPA because my wife is doing NP and I have already compared all the NP programs in my area (7 NP programs) and have compared them to the two PA programs in the state & to the program I am attending. The clinical portion is 3 times less than what my program requires. The DNP is NOT a terminal degree, a PhD is a terminal degree. Look at the classes the DNP students are taking and they look like what....? administration type classes, NOT clinically based classes that focus on treatment of diseases, etc. The AACN has recommended a BSN for all nursing school, but has that even came close? NOT a chance. There are more ASN programs in my area than BSN program (2:1). This recommendation has been around for EVER and do you see a transition to all BSN programs...no because in my wife's nursing class, only a few of the students <10% wanted to go on to NP, mid-wife, CRNA, etc...The reason I know this is because my wife told me the first day of school they asked the chort what is your intention with this nursing degree? Almost everyone wanted to be a NURSE and could care less about advanced practice. So, why would they mandate a BSN for everyone? This would be stupid on their part because NURSES are in NEED and a lot of people don't want to spend the extra time/money getting their BSN to be a nurse. So, they would make it harder to be an RN when there is a HUGE need for RNs? That is the same thing for NPs, there is a big push for NPs and everyone I have talked to (in person and forums, including my wife) stated that they did not want to spend 6-7 years in school getting their DNP just to be a NP. They said they would not do it if they mandated it, they should of spent that time going to medical school if all that time/money is invested in something that will not increase your salary or focus on care. A DNP to me is something nursing is trying to do to become equal to physicians so they can say they have a doctorate and can "practice nursing" (i.e. medicine, because they truly want to practice medicine and not nursing due to it limitations) just as well as the physician can practice medicine. PAs might as well get a doctorate in Art so they can say they have a doctorate and can practice medicine just as well as their SPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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