Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I agree with EMEDPA because my wife is doing NP and I have already compared all the NP programs in my area (7 NP programs) and have compared them to the two PA programs in the state & to the program I am attending. The clinical portion is 3 times less than what my program requires. The DNP is NOT a terminal degree, a PhD is a terminal degree. Look at the classes the DNP students are taking and they look like what....? administration type classes, NOT clinically based classes that focus on treatment of diseases, etc. The AACN has recommended a BSN for all nursing school, but has that even came close? NOT a chance. There are more ASN programs in my area than BSN program (2:1). This recommendation has been around for EVER and do you see a transition to all BSN programs...no because in my wife's nursing class, only a few of the students <10% wanted to go on to NP, mid-wife, CRNA, etc...The reason I know this is because my wife told me the first day of school they asked the chort what is your intention with this nursing degree? Almost everyone wanted to be a NURSE and could care less about advanced practice. So, why would they mandate a BSN for everyone? This would be stupid on their part because NURSES are in NEED and a lot of people don't want to spend the extra time/money getting their BSN to be a nurse. So, they would make it harder to be an RN when there is a HUGE need for RNs? That is the same thing for NPs, there is a big push for NPs and everyone I have talked to (in person and forums, including my wife) stated that they did not want to spend 6-7 years in school getting their DNP just to be a NP. They said they would not do it if they mandated it, they should of spent that time going to medical school if all that time/money is invested in something that will not increase your salary or focus on care. A DNP to me is something nursing is trying to do to become equal to physicians so they can say they have a doctorate and can "practice nursing" (i.e. medicine, because they truly want to practice medicine and not nursing due to it limitations) just as well as the physician can practice medicine. PAs might as well get a doctorate in Art so they can say they have a doctorate and can practice medicine just as well as their SPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I agree with EMEDPA because my wife is doing NP and I have already compared all the NP programs in my area (7 NP programs) and have compared them to the two PA programs in the state & to the program I am attending. The clinical portion is 3 times less than what my program requires. The DNP is NOT a terminal degree, a PhD is a terminal degree. Look at the classes the DNP students are taking and they look like what....? administration type classes, NOT clinically based classes that focus on treatment of diseases, etc. The AACN has recommended a BSN for all nursing school, but has that even came close? NOT a chance. There are more ASN programs in my area than BSN program (2:1). This recommendation has been around for EVER and do you see a transition to all BSN programs...no because in my wife's nursing class, only a few of the students <10% wanted to go on to NP, mid-wife, CRNA, etc...The reason I know this is because my wife told me the first day of school they asked the chort what is your intention with this nursing degree? Almost everyone wanted to be a NURSE and could care less about advanced practice. So, why would they mandate a BSN for everyone? This would be stupid on their part because NURSES are in NEED and a lot of people don't want to spend the extra time/money getting their BSN to be a nurse. So, they would make it harder to be an RN when there is a HUGE need for RNs? That is the same thing for NPs, there is a big push for NPs and everyone I have talked to (in person and forums, including my wife) stated that they did not want to spend 6-7 years in school getting their DNP just to be a NP. They said they would not do it if they mandated it, they should of spent that time going to medical school if all that time/money is invested in something that will not increase your salary or focus on care. A DNP to me is something nursing is trying to do to become equal to physicians so they can say they have a doctorate and can "practice nursing" (i.e. medicine, because they truly want to practice medicine and not nursing due to it limitations) just as well as the physician can practice medicine. PAs might as well get a doctorate in Art so they can say they have a doctorate and can practice medicine just as well as their SPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 ASN 2 years from start to finish. Accelerated BSN is 17 months after your prereq. of 60-70 credit hours. Your have to have around 125 credit hours to have any bachelors, in my state, and my wife is in a 15 months BSN program AFTER getting an A.S degree and about 40 credit hours of university course work. So, don't think you can get a BSN in 17 months start to finish....Also, I know of two schools in my area that are offering a DNP/PhD or DNP or PhD in nursing, which would make the extra credits/dissertation of the PhD the terminal degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 ASN 2 years from start to finish. Accelerated BSN is 17 months after your prereq. of 60-70 credit hours. Your have to have around 125 credit hours to have any bachelors, in my state, and my wife is in a 15 months BSN program AFTER getting an A.S degree and about 40 credit hours of university course work. So, don't think you can get a BSN in 17 months start to finish....Also, I know of two schools in my area that are offering a DNP/PhD or DNP or PhD in nursing, which would make the extra credits/dissertation of the PhD the terminal degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 So, why do they what to be referred to as "Dr. X" the NP in the clinical environment when all their "D" is for policy? Sounds to me like they are trying to become "Nursing physicians." Just call them "Noctor." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 So, why do they what to be referred to as "Dr. X" the NP in the clinical environment when all their "D" is for policy? Sounds to me like they are trying to become "Nursing physicians." Just call them "Noctor." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Sorry that things stink so badly in Ill. From some of your previous posts, appears being a PA in this state is very challenging. Talked to an Ortho/Neuro PA the other day who intially practiced in Ill but now lives in SE and practices in Atlanta and Nashville areas. He mentioned that being a PA now is like night and day vs Ill. Pay, autonomy, opportunity, his patients actually knowing what a PA is and does, etc. He was totally surprised that many patients in the large neuro/spine group actually request and expect to see the PAs (as well as a couple of NPs) in f/u visits and some initial evals. Hope things get much better up there in the future... IL is a union state....the unions control this state....if you're not in a union...you're invisible....the nurses union is why their salary is rising so rapidly....and our non union status is the reason why our salary is declining... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 in IL the PA salary is going down and the NP salary is rising..rapidly.. Sorry that things stink so badly in Ill. From some of your previous posts, appears being a PA in this state is very challenging. Talked to an Ortho/Neuro PA the other day who intially practiced in Ill but now lives in SE and practices in Atlanta and Nashville areas. He mentioned that being a PA now is like night and day vs Ill. Pay, autonomy, opportunity, his patients actually knowing what a PA is and does, etc. He was totally surprised that many patients in the large neuro/spine group actually request and expect to see the PAs (as well as a couple of NPs) in f/u visits and some initial evals. Hope things get much better up there in the future... IL is a union state....the unions control this state....if you're not in a union...you're invisible....the nurses union is why their salary is rising so rapidly....and our non union status is the reason why our salary is declining... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The PA vs NP thing ... it's akin to marijuana having medical use but not being legal, yet you can buy cirrhosis, drunk driving and lung cancer on every corner and in between. It's just so bizarre to me that NPs aren't legally bound to supervision of some sort in all states. Their training is inferior to a PA, their accreditation board has zero (0) Docs on it ... the PA accreditation board has about 6 representatives from Doc organizations including the AMA, AOA, American College of Surgeons, etc, etc. If it's a matter of people putting their hand up and saying 'hey, we don't need Doctors, nurses do just fine on their own", then they've been smoking some of that wacky tobacky lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The PA vs NP thing ... it's akin to marijuana having medical use but not being legal, yet you can buy cirrhosis, drunk driving and lung cancer on every corner and in between. It's just so bizarre to me that NPs aren't legally bound to supervision of some sort in all states. Their training is inferior to a PA, their accreditation board has zero (0) Docs on it ... the PA accreditation board has about 6 representatives from Doc organizations including the AMA, AOA, American College of Surgeons, etc, etc. If it's a matter of people putting their hand up and saying 'hey, we don't need Doctors, nurses do just fine on their own", then they've been smoking some of that wacky tobacky lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The PA vs NP thing ... it's akin to marijuana having medical use but not being legal, yet you can buy cirrhosis, drunk driving and lung cancer on every corner and in between. It's just so bizarre to me that NPs aren't legally bound to supervision of some sort in all states. Their training is inferior to a PA, their accreditation board has zero (0) Docs on it ... the PA accreditation board has about 6 representatives from Doc organizations including the AMA, AOA, American College of Surgeons, etc, etc. If it's a matter of people putting their hand up and saying 'hey, we don't need Doctors, nurses do just fine on their own", then they've been smoking some of that wacky tobacky lol. and yet they are soaring leaps and bounds ahead of us....like I said, we have a long way to go to reach their level....talking light yrs here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The PA vs NP thing ... it's akin to marijuana having medical use but not being legal, yet you can buy cirrhosis, drunk driving and lung cancer on every corner and in between. It's just so bizarre to me that NPs aren't legally bound to supervision of some sort in all states. Their training is inferior to a PA, their accreditation board has zero (0) Docs on it ... the PA accreditation board has about 6 representatives from Doc organizations including the AMA, AOA, American College of Surgeons, etc, etc. If it's a matter of people putting their hand up and saying 'hey, we don't need Doctors, nurses do just fine on their own", then they've been smoking some of that wacky tobacky lol. and yet they are soaring leaps and bounds ahead of us....like I said, we have a long way to go to reach their level....talking light yrs here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 and yet they are soaring leaps and bounds ahead of us....like I said, we have a long way to go to reach their level....talking light yrs here... Not in salary, they're not! We (typically) are still about 10K ahead. Rightfully so, too ... at least on that scale things are more accurate. Of course, it all boils down to experience in the end, but still ... our training is superior and thankfully that's recognized by most Docs (even the disgruntled ones have to give props where credit is due). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 and yet they are soaring leaps and bounds ahead of us....like I said, we have a long way to go to reach their level....talking light yrs here... Not in salary, they're not! We (typically) are still about 10K ahead. Rightfully so, too ... at least on that scale things are more accurate. Of course, it all boils down to experience in the end, but still ... our training is superior and thankfully that's recognized by most Docs (even the disgruntled ones have to give props where credit is due). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 the reports ive seen put PA's about 3k ahead, which to me seems pretty good considering PAs tend to fill the specialties. where do you see 10k differences? I realize the PA world doesn't revolve around IL...I simply want people aware of what is going on in the state that has a powerful nurses union AND the AMA.....the salary difference is starting to progress from a gap to a large crevice....as I mentioned b/f on indeed.com....OrthoPA wanted for Chicago suburbs...office, surgery, on call all for 63k.....Psyche NP wanted, no weekends/no call 8-5, 100-125k.....then a while back an ad for Oncology/Hematology NP wanted...will accept PA with experience, but really would rather have NP....I wanted to respond with GFY...but my professionalism held me back...it might not next time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marilynpac Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 the reports ive seen put PA's about 3k ahead, which to me seems pretty good considering PAs tend to fill the specialties. where do you see 10k differences? I realize the PA world doesn't revolve around IL...I simply want people aware of what is going on in the state that has a powerful nurses union AND the AMA.....the salary difference is starting to progress from a gap to a large crevice....as I mentioned b/f on indeed.com....OrthoPA wanted for Chicago suburbs...office, surgery, on call all for 63k.....Psyche NP wanted, no weekends/no call 8-5, 100-125k.....then a while back an ad for Oncology/Hematology NP wanted...will accept PA with experience, but really would rather have NP....I wanted to respond with GFY...but my professionalism held me back...it might not next time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 i was looking at the "advance" survey. Hmm, you're right, things have been changing ... "In 2010, the average PA took home $6,106 more in full-time salary than the average NP. But in 2011, the difference dropped to $4,287." http://nurse-practitioners-and-physician-assistants.advanceweb.com/Web-Extras/Online-Extras/The-2012-National-Salary-Survey-of-NPs-PAs.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemegroup Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 i was looking at the "advance" survey. Hmm, you're right, things have been changing ... "In 2010, the average PA took home $6,106 more in full-time salary than the average NP. But in 2011, the difference dropped to $4,287." http://nurse-practitioners-and-physician-assistants.advanceweb.com/Web-Extras/Online-Extras/The-2012-National-Salary-Survey-of-NPs-PAs.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 17, 2012 NPs aren't present in large numbers in surgical specialties, especially CT surgery. In my area, I've only seen a couple NPs in surgery, while almost every surgeon has a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted June 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted June 17, 2012 NPs aren't present in large numbers in surgical specialties, especially CT surgery. In my area, I've only seen a couple NPs in surgery, while almost every surgeon has a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 DNP/PhD, DNP, OR PhD. A DNP or PhD in nursing is two different things, also with MD/PhD or DO/PhD. The DNP, MD, DO are PROFESSIONAL doctorates while a PhD is a RESEARCH doctorate. So, in nursing the terminal degree is a PhD in Nursing same thing applies to a DHSc and PhD in Health Science. The PhD on the DO/MD are just additives to one's degree, not more medical school, more research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 DNP/PhD, DNP, OR PhD. A DNP or PhD in nursing is two different things, also with MD/PhD or DO/PhD. The DNP, MD, DO are PROFESSIONAL doctorates while a PhD is a RESEARCH doctorate. So, in nursing the terminal degree is a PhD in Nursing same thing applies to a DHSc and PhD in Health Science. The PhD on the DO/MD are just additives to one's degree, not more medical school, more research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 First, I do not use wikipedia because it is not reliable. Secondly, the PDF from nann.org states, "The DNP will also provide a terminal degree and advanced educational credential for those who do not want a research-focused degree." see page 3 and Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) programs proliferated around the same time as the DNSc and were designed to advance the science of the discipline of nursing through research. The PhD has been recognized as the highest distinction in scholarship and academic achievement across all disciplines. see page 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubbardtim48 Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 First, I do not use wikipedia because it is not reliable. Secondly, the PDF from nann.org states, "The DNP will also provide a terminal degree and advanced educational credential for those who do not want a research-focused degree." see page 3 and Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) programs proliferated around the same time as the DNSc and were designed to advance the science of the discipline of nursing through research. The PhD has been recognized as the highest distinction in scholarship and academic achievement across all disciplines. see page 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmojorisin Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Well now you're just trying to sound like a nurse. HAHAHA wow i love your responses. so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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