Attn Residency grads: Credit at LC towards DMSc

[ProSpectre]

12 minutes ago, MedicinePower said:

I'm still not seeing the benefit of the LMU degree for the reasons you stated and it takes longer and is more expensive than the MCPHS Doctor of Science. Additional didactic and clinical training should only occur if our license and scope of training were to be expanded.

Do you see value in a residency/fellowship? It doesn't provide expanded scope of practice either. It does, however, provide additional clinical and didactic training to make you a more competent medical practitioner that is safer for your patients and potentially more respected in your field. PA doctorates (including the one from LMU) are designed to do something similar, only in a different manner (and with a doctorate degree awarded at the end). Being a seasoned PA doesn't mean you know everything in medicine and can no longer benefit from additional training (or from having a doctorate to open doors professionally, like LT_Oneal mentioned). Whether you think the LMU degree is worth the cost involved, that is a different question.  

There have been numerous solid answers to your questions about the benefits; you simply choose to ignore them unless they directly involve expanded scope of practice, which no PA doctorate will do. Comparing the curriculum of the 3 current PA doctorates, I happen to think the MCPHS degree is anemic and full of fluff work compared to LMU and Lynchburg's offerings; that is my opinion. Hiring managers and physicians may not notice the difference, but personally I wouldn't pay to have a lesser degree (even a cheaper one) if there are better options that actually improve my knowledge base as a clinician and better prepare me to walk through any doors it may open. 

[LT_Oneal_PAC]

1 hour ago, MedicinePower said:

I'm still not seeing the benefit of the LMU degree for the reasons you stated and it takes longer and is more expensive than the MCPHS Doctor of Science. Additional didactic and clinical training should only occur if our license and scope of training were to be expanded.

Not talking about LMU, talking about the Lynchburg program which is half the cost and time. 

My residncy, and hopefully one day DMS from Lynchburg, will expand my scope. I’ve trained to do thoracotomy, lateral canthotomy, I have rotations lined up to learn regional blocks/critical care/much more. So it will certainly expand my credentialing.

you can have the opinion of it being pointless, if you want. I’m sure that a lot of people thought that getting a degree as a PA when there was no licensing, no scope of practice, nothing whatsoever, was a pretty bad idea. Further, many smarter people than me, leaders in the profession like Beth Smolko who was the AAFPA president and Shep Stone (Brigadier General Ret.) the first and only PA who practices anesthesiology, and many other leaders, were in the inaugural Lynchburg class.

[MedicinePower]

12 hours ago, ProSpectre said:

Do you see value in a residency/fellowship? It doesn't provide expanded scope of practice either. It does, however, provide additional clinical and didactic training to make you a more competent medical practitioner that is safer for your patients and potentially more respected in your field. PA doctorates (including the one from LMU) are designed to do something similar, only in a different manner (and with a doctorate degree awarded at the end). Being a seasoned PA doesn't mean you know everything in medicine and can no longer benefit from additional training (or from having a doctorate to open doors professionally, like LT_Oneal mentioned). Whether you think the LMU degree is worth the cost involved, that is a different question.  

There have been numerous solid answers to your questions about the benefits; you simply choose to ignore them unless they directly involve expanded scope of practice, which no PA doctorate will do. Comparing the curriculum of the 3 current PA doctorates, I happen to think the MCPHS degree is anemic and full of fluff work compared to LMU and Lynchburg's offerings; that is my opinion. Hiring managers and physicians may not notice the difference, but personally I wouldn't pay to have a lesser degree (even a cheaper one) if there are better options that actually improve my knowledge base as a clinician and better prepare me to walk through any doors it may open. 

Quite the opposite- residency/fellowship specifically provides for additional autonomy. Ask any PA who has completed a residency and continues to work within the same system and they will tell you they function at the top of their license.

A so-called "anemic" doctorate is the most appropriate one to pursue based on the expectations that a doctorate can provide.

[ProSpectre]

1 hour ago, MedicinePower said:

Quite the opposite- residency/fellowship specifically provides for additional autonomy. Ask any PA who has completed a residency and continues to work within the same system and they will tell you they function at the top of their license.

A so-called "anemic" doctorate is the most appropriate one to pursue based on the expectations that a doctorate can provide.

 

Legally, it does not. A residency is of great benefit (I plan to do one myself), and I hope they continue to be a trend in PA training, but they grant no more legal autonomy than a PA doctorate does (i.e. none, from a legal standpoint). If a specific hospital system wants to give more autonomy through expanded credentialing to residency grads than they would to someone who didn't have a residency, that is their right; but residency grads are bound by the exact same state laws as non-residency grads. 

My point was that both residencies and doctorate degrees are additional training that should be seen as valuable in their own (different) ways. Obviously we have different views on what a PA doctorate should be though, and that's fine. 

 

[cinntsp]

I believe this is a great offering and knowing the director and some faculty personally, I can say that a lot of work went into developing the program.  I keep getting tempted to apply but am debating if I want to take on any more student loan debt at this time and whether I think an MBA with a healthcare focus would benefit me more for an eventual move into management/administration.  The more options we have to advance our career the better off we are.  I'm all for the Lynchburg program and similar programs as long as the standards are high and quality of education is excellent.

[jusgatr]

The day one of these doctorate programs gives credit for all us bachelor trained PAs to then go to a doctorate, I’ll sign up. I’m not paying for a masters to then turn around and pay for a doctorate. All while, not making any additional money and adding 3 more years to my education after already completing a 4 year undergrad and 2.5 year PA school. Might as well go to a 3 year Med school program in that setting. 

[camoman1234]

9 hours ago, jusgatr said:

The day one of these doctorate programs gives credit for all us bachelor trained PAs to then go to a doctorate, I’ll sign up. I’m not paying for a masters to then turn around and pay for a doctorate. All while, not making any additional money and adding 3 more years to my education after already completing a 4 year undergrad and 2.5 year PA school. Might as well go to a 3 year Med school program in that setting. 

You cannot go to a US medical school online, that is the difference, where you could get your masters and DMSc online while working as a PA. Sorry you feel that way, but there are steps to take and since I have my masters I feel like they are important to the process of getting a doctorate. Your experience as a PA cannot replace that, sorry.  

[EMEDPA]

9 hours ago, jusgatr said:

The day one of these doctorate programs gives credit for all us bachelor trained PAs to then go to a doctorate, I’ll sign up. I’m not paying for a masters to then turn around and pay for a doctorate. All while, not making any additional money and adding 3 more years to my education after already completing a 4 year undergrad and 2.5 year PA school. Might as well go to a 3 year Med school program in that setting. 

Nova has a MHSc/DHSc program for those with a prior BS. 

[jusgatr]

3 hours ago, camoman1234 said:

You cannot go to a US medical school online, that is the difference, where you could get your masters and DMSc online while working as a PA. Sorry you feel that way, but there are steps to take and since I have my masters I feel like they are important to the process of getting a doctorate. Your experience as a PA cannot replace that, sorry.  

I respect that some already have a masters and for an “educational/teaching” doctorate I believe they can be of value from a research standpoint. But you are discussing a “clinical” doctorate, where no masters is necessary. Examples, DPT, DNP, PharmD, JD, and so on. And my experience as a PA is far more valuable in the setting of a clinical doctorate than an essay paper wrote for a masters program. In my opinion, one of the reasons we don’t have more of a push from established PAs for a clinical doctorate already is because everyone forgets that the vast majority of tenured PAs have bachelors, not masters.

[ProSpectre]

1 hour ago, jusgatr said:

I respect that some already have a masters and for an “educational/teaching” doctorate I believe they can be of value from a research standpoint. But you are discussing a “clinical” doctorate, where no masters is necessary. Examples, DPT, DNP, PharmD, JD, and so on. And my experience as a PA is far more valuable in the setting of a clinical doctorate than an essay paper wrote for a masters program. In my opinion, one of the reasons we don’t have more of a push from established PAs for a clinical doctorate already is because everyone forgets that the vast majority of tenured PAs have bachelors, not masters.

I'm unsure what you mean by tenured PAs, but the most common degree for currently practicing PAs is not the bachelor's degree, but the master's degree. As of 2016, 73% of certified PAs had completed at least a master's degree. Over 82% of PA schools offered master's degrees back in 2007, and over 97% of programs currently offer master's degrees (this is set to be 100% by 2020). There are more schools now than ever (currently 235 programs, projected to be 270 by 2020), and there are more PAs graduating each year than ever before as well; the master's prepared PA already dominates the profession, and this trend will only increase. 

Sources: 

https://prodcmsstoragesa.blob.core.windows.net/uploads/files/2016StatisticalProfileofCertifiedPhysicianAssistants.pdf (Table 6)

http://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ProgramReport32_2017_2.pdf (Table 3) 

 

I understand the frustration of having the educational climate change such that your degree isn't accepted for the new clinical doctorate programs, but there are many schools offering the DNP that require a master's to enter their program, so there is precedent for other clinical doctorates requiring a masters (the trend may be going to post-BSN DNP degrees though as schools try to phase out the master's NP degree altogether, an issue PAs won't face for the foreseeable future).

Keep in mind though that there are one year master's programs that are fully online (like an MPH or MHA) that would allow you to enroll in the clinical doctorate programs; LMU and Lynchburg simply require you to be a certified PA with a master's degree, but admission requirements don't specify a certain type of degree. You would still be able to work during the master's and the doctorate, so that is one benefit if you wanted to pursue a doctorate outside of an MD/DO. 

[jusgatr]

Tenured was meant to be a PA of 10+ years of experience. The providers primed for leadership positions and roles in health care organizations and interested in seeking further need of a “doctorate” to gain a seat at the table in those positions. The argument made on here often is for a “clinical” doctorate that would prepare us for those positions. A MPAS now is literally a sunk cost and has no value for a tenured/bachelor/certificate PA. It gives no more rights or value for a PA from 10-20+years ago. Just cost 20-30k more. And by 2025 NPs will be 100% doctorates while we are putting out 100% masters. I like the concept that EMEDPA pointed out that bridges both and gives some credit to already lower your sunk cost. Some people don’t see it that way. This is just my opinion. 

 

I also get the the concept of being able to work while you achieve these options. A PA with 1-3 years worth of experience but sporting a doctorate is not going to advance the profession. The PA with 10-20 years worth of experience with ties to the medical boards, administrations at hospitals, and the medical doctor colleagues who know them would. As those fore mentioned experienced PAs would be the ones offered said advancing positions for the profession. Btw this comment was not meant to offend PAs with less experience, but more to point out the necessity for change sooner then waiting 5-10 more years for all the masters trained PAs to finally have doctorates. DNPs will already have accepted those executive positions far sooner.

[ArmyPA]

I would have to think that outside of the Education realm, an MHA or MBA would be more valuable to the PA who wanted to rise in the administrative sphere. All would be mostly useless to the PA who just wants to treat patients....YMMV.

[ArmyPA]

Also I would like to see more residencies/fellowships that are aligned with accredited universities go the way of the Army-Baylor EM and Ortho residencies...granting a DSc along with the fellowship. I believe Arrowhead regional in California has a 20 month program that allows you to do the Lynchburg program at the same time and they cover tuition for the program so about as close as you can get.