Will Pay for Preceptorship

[kelo]

Greetings!

 

I am looking for a preceptor in critical care or hospital medicine in Virginia or surrounding states.  I am willing to pay for your time and preceptorship.  If you can help, I'd greatly appreciate it.  

 

 You can contact me at berkeleygrad9@gmail.com

 

Thank you so much!

[rev ronin]

Are you looking for a particular reason?  Is your school not providing you rotations, or are you just wanting to shell out of pocket to get to a desired location?

[kelo]

My school is asking us to find rotations since there aren't enough sites close to where I live.  I'd greatly appreciate any help.  Thank you.

[MT2PA]

Isn't there a sort of conflict of interest in paying a preceptor?  Don't they review your performance?  I know that some programs may pay but a student directly paying for a preceptor seems....iffy.

[mgriffiths]

I am almost certain that the student paying directly is against ARC-PA standards, basically because of the reasons already mentioned.  Don't jeopardize your schooling.  Also, I do know that it is an ARC-PA standard that programs provide quality rotations to their students.  There are some situations where students are encouraged to help find their rotations, but it is the job of the programs. 

[Reality Check 2]

I cannot accept that a student would have to pay for a rotation.

 

It IS the responsibility of the program to find suitable rotations and the students can help especially if they have a connection in a certain community or specialty.

 

What rotation are you looking for and in what region/city/state? What is the timeframe for rotation? Is this an oddball that no one has done before? 

 

Need more info but DO NOT PAY FOR A ROTATION. Go back to your program and work with them to make sure they provide what is required.

[RuralER/Ortho]

This seems like a bad precedent to set. We can't have students privately paying for rotations. If the school cannot secure rotations, they should reduce their number of slots or close. They are not fulfilling their requirements.

[MedicinePower]

My school is asking us to find rotations since there aren't enough sites close to where I live.  I'd greatly appreciate any help.  Thank you.

 

The school which I attend doesn't care that the assigned rotations are 2-3 hours away from where you live. Almost every 5 weeks you have to move. If you're married or have kids you literally kiss them goodbye on Monday morning and see them again Friday evening. I know this isn't a "good thing" but I'm sure it's not the worst thing.

[Guest Paula]

To the OP: You are already paying for the rotation with your tuition.

 

I get a small stipend for being a preceptor that my organization offers.   It only pays out after the minimum number of days are met but students do not pay for it.

 

it is a benefit that I think will eventually go away as a money saving management move, but until it does, I will take it.

 

I will precept without the stipend, too.  

[Reality Check 2]

Contact ALL the med schools in Virginia or large clinic systems. Prep a letter of intro with a resume and email and fax EVERYONE you can contact. Inquire about student lodging or a preceptor w a garage apt.

 

Politely stress that your program is soliciting student effort in locating sites.

 

Then call to f/u on any communications.

 

Find the county medical society online for counties with large systems and contact them as well.

 

Ask your program for contact info for alums in the area who might be in that field.

 

Do not pay or offer to pay. Stress the requirement by national PA education standards to have rotations.

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

I am across the country or would start to bug folks I know.

[MT2PA]

The school which I attend doesn't care that the assigned rotations are 2-3 hours away from where you live. Almost every 5 weeks you have to move. If you're married or have kids you literally kiss them goodbye on Monday morning and see them again Friday evening. I know this isn't a "good thing" but I'm sure it's not the worst thing.

 

This is hands down one of the biggest things I asked about at interviews.  Some people don't mind it, some do.  The one program I was looking at that did something similarly would send you all over the state and you were responsible for your own housing...apparently they assumed students had friends/family/etc across the state that they could crash with.  That was a big NOPE for me.  I didn't want the stress of moving every 4 weeks along with worrying about where my next 'home' would be constantly.  Huge turn-off for me.  Definitely something for applicants to consider.

[MedicinePower]

This is hands down one of the biggest things I asked about at interviews.  Some people don't mind it, some do.  The one program I was looking at that did something similarly would send you all over the state and you were responsible for your own housing...apparently they assumed students had friends/family/etc across the state that they could crash with.  That was a big NOPE for me.  I didn't want the stress of moving every 4 weeks along with worrying about where my next 'home' would be constantly.  Huge turn-off for me.  Definitely something for applicants to consider.

 

We were incredulous when they told us of the distance and housing would not be something the school helped with. I don't know why or how this is permitted under the accreditation process.

[Reality Check 2]

Eons ago in school in Texas, my program secured the site and the housing but we only needed housing for 1-2 rotations.

 

A lot of our rural preceptor sites were old family docs (some actual MASH doctors )who kept students in their homes and usually fed them and such. Most were men and their wives loved having "kids" to look after and they shared of their experiences graciously.

 

We never paid for anything but driving there.

 

Those docs have passed on and I know how hard it is to find sites now but the school IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for obtaining credentialed sites. Not sure who pays for what anymore but students shouldn't be tagged , in my opinion, for more expense and hardship.

 

Has anyone contacted ARC-PA to inquire about program requirements and responsibilities?

[GetMeOuttaThisMess]

Eons before RC2's Eons, my Tx program had off campus rotations in Texas and each had living accommodations provided by the associated healthcare facility (old house in town with limited accessories). Meals were at student's cost as they would be in med center cafeteria or home (I think one allowed for doc lounge meals which was unheard of then). One of the two locations had a female who fell in love with the male students that rotated through and resulted in this loon banging on my apt. door one Sat. morning at 1 a.m. looking for my roommate who had been her lover apparently (he was married). Thank goodness he wasn't home at the time.

[sk732]

With the amount of money people have to pay for tuition, you'd think the program should be able to do, or be outright doing the legwork AND paying for the preceptor.  Something is fishy smelling.

 

SK

[PACdan]

Sorry but this is terrible. 80% of my rotations were within 5 miles of my school, a couple were 15-40 miles away. We have a few "out of area" sites (>100 miles), but housing IS provided. IMO, that's how it should be.

 

It blows my mind that some schools are taking 70, 80, or 90k for tuition and then asking students to find sites AND pay for site housing. It simply should not be allowed.

 

Maybe ARC-PA needs to stop accrediting programs that cannot secure adequate numbers of rotations sites.

 

edit: PA Programs should be associated with medical schools OR academic/large medical centers. Every Joe-Bob College is trying to open a PA program now it seems, because it looks great for them and is a guaranteed revenue generator. Seems like the resources are lacking.

[AliB]

Helping find good rotation sites is to your benefit.  Personally paying for them is not - for all the reasons already mentioned.  

 

The program is responsible for providing appropriate, acceptable experiences for your education and training.  

 

Per the ARC-PA Accreditation Manual, in the Administration section, Standard A3.03 states:

 

Students must not be required to provide or solicit clinical sites or preceptors. The program must coordinate clinical sites and preceptors for program required rotations. 

ANNOTATION: Coordinating clinical practice experiences involves identifying, contacting and evaluating sites and preceptors for suitability as a required or elective rotation experience. Students may make suggestions to principal faculty for sites and preceptors but are not required to do so. Student suggested sites and preceptors are to be reviewed, evaluated, and approved for educational suitability by the program.  

 

Also, Standard A2.14 states:

In addition to the principal faculty, there must be sufficient instructional faculty to provide students with the necessary attention, instruction, and supervised clinical practice experiences to acquire the knowledge and competence required for entry into the profession.

ANNOTATION: Instructional faculty participate in the evaluation of student performance and in the identification of students who are not achieving course and program learning outcomes. 

[The Accreditation Manual Compliance/Performance Example for this standard includes the statement:  "Documentation of clinical preceptor numbers and types sufficient to provide required supervised clinical practice experiences.]

 

​Even for Provisional Accreditation, Standard D1.07 states:

The program must have identified prospective clinical sites sufficient in number to meet the needs of the number of anticipated students.

ANNOTATION: The program is expected to have signed agreements from those facilities and individuals participating in the supervised clinical practice experiences. 

 

"Must" is defined as "term used to designate requirements that are compelled or mandatory. “Must” indicates an absolute requirement. ".

[MedicinePower]

Helping find good rotation sites is to your benefit.  Personally paying for them is not - for all the reasons already mentioned.  

 

The program is responsible for providing appropriate, acceptable experiences for your education and training.  

 

Per the ARC-PA Accreditation Manual, in the Administration section, Standard A3.03 states:

 

Students must not be required to provide or solicit clinical sites or preceptors. The program must coordinate clinical sites and preceptors for program required rotations. 

ANNOTATION: Coordinating clinical practice experiences involves identifying, contacting and evaluating sites and preceptors for suitability as a required or elective rotation experience. Students may make suggestions to principal faculty for sites and preceptors but are not required to do so. Student suggested sites and preceptors are to be reviewed, evaluated, and approved for educational suitability by the program.  

 

Also, Standard A2.14 states:

In addition to the principal faculty, there must be sufficient instructional faculty to provide students with the necessary attention, instruction, and supervised clinical practice experiences to acquire the knowledge and competence required for entry into the profession.

ANNOTATION: Instructional faculty participate in the evaluation of student performance and in the identification of students who are not achieving course and program learning outcomes. 

[The Accreditation Manual Compliance/Performance Example for this standard includes the statement:  "Documentation of clinical preceptor numbers and types sufficient to provide required supervised clinical practice experiences.]

 

​Even for Provisional Accreditation, Standard D1.07 states:

The program must have identified prospective clinical sites sufficient in number to meet the needs of the number of anticipated students.

ANNOTATION: The program is expected to have signed agreements from those facilities and individuals participating in the supervised clinical practice experiences. 

 

"Must" is defined as "term used to designate requirements that are compelled or mandatory. “Must” indicates an absolute requirement. ".

Anything in there about requiring students to go to far-off rotations at their own expense?

[Guest Paula]

My organization provides housing for students and gives them a free daily lunch and breakfast pass to the hospital cafeteria.  Students may have to bunk up and share the space at the house but they are all so grateful they don't have to pay for housing or food.  

 

i hope the policy stays in force as getting students to want to have a rotation in a rural,  paper mill town in the Northwoods is a challenge. 

[rev ronin]

Anything in there about requiring students to go to far-off rotations at their own expense?

Nope.  My program (Pacific University) was up front that 1) this was a requirement, and 2) the (somewhat) increased cost of travel and housing would be baked into our clinical year financial aid packages.  Since that's mostly loans, yeah, it means we ultimately paid for our own housing during clinical year, just like didactic, but we knew that going in.

 

I don't get why people think schools MUST be required to provide housing for rotations not within driving distance of clinical year school campus.  If you want to maintain two households, that's on you.  I was able to sublet my rental house in Hillsboro to other students who gave up their apartments, for the two rotations where I and my family left for a rural site.

 

I get what PACDan is saying re: academic medical centers, but I would submit that even with such a requirement, any new PA program is going to be challenged to have adequate sites despite that affiliation, because established programs will already have as many students as they can place at those sites.  I did all of my domestic rotations at sites where OHSU or MEDEX were "closer", for example.

[Reality Check 2]

Major difference over time -- I was single in PA school. 2/3 of my class was single.

 

Going somehwere for 4-6 weeks wasn't as tough as married or married w kids.

 

I could not imagine leaving now at my current life status.

 

I DO think the school should be responsible for housing for standard rotations.

 

One of my students set up 4 MONTHS in Australia about 10 yrs ago. He did all the work to set it up and paid his airfare and arranged his living situation etc. That is not standard and he did it all to make it happen.

 

If a rotation site is utilized repeatedly then the school should take steps to ensure safe and adequate housing while students are responsible for meals just as they would be at home.

 

We have too many PA schools right now and too few preceptor sites and too many roadblocks and restrictions preventing some from precepting at all.

 

A program shouldn't be accredited until they can show adequate sites, safe lodging and accredited preceptors.

 

I brought a preceptor to the attention of the school I teach with to let them know he was in the state record report for inappropriate contact with female patients AND staff. They weren't aware of his citation by the board and were about to send a female student to his remote location for a month.....

 

Too many schools battling for the tuition dollar and not enough vetting of truly adequate rotation sites and fully vetting the preceptors.

 

Our profession cannot afford to make half baked graduates or put students at risk.

[MedicinePower]

Many women in my class (a majority are women, perhaps 85%+) are married and have one or more kids. I can't imagine them wanting or being OK with leaving their kids behind for a week or even a day.

[rev ronin]

Many women in my class (a majority are women, perhaps 85%+) are married and have one or more kids. I can't imagine them wanting or being OK with leaving their kids behind for a week or even a day.

So it's OK to ask me, as a husband and father, to (at that time) leave my wife and children behind, but not OK to ask the same of a female student?  Please tell me that's NOT what you meant to imply.

 

Family is absolutely important, which is why *I* chose PA school over med school: not that I would be able to always see my kids every day of PA school, but that the intense grind and associated separation would be chronologically *shorter* than if I were to have done MD/DO school and then a residency.  Again, I signed up knowing that I could be sent all over the country, asked that I be able to keep my family with me as much as possible, and I was very pleased with what my school was able to work out for me.

[Febrifuge]

My program established relationships with one of the hospital/ clinic systems in the Greater Chicagoland area within a couple of years of my graduation, but prior to that they were very open and honest about being kind of spread out and having to hustle for rotation sites. And they also had (still have, I suppose) a kick-@ss clinical coordinator who made it her mission in life to make sure we had decent sites -- no easy feat considering all the competition from other nearby programs.

 

Chicago is such a sprawl, I had some long drives (Evanston to Mt Sinai on the South Side, in time for 6:00am pre-rounding meant getting up at 0-dark-thirty), and because they were leveraging the alumni network, there were some really far-flung sites too (I had a great rotation in Michigan). But we made it work. I set up my own rotation once, because I had contacts from my old job in MN, but that was my idea, not the program's.

 

Making students find their own sites is what chiropractic colleges do.

[MedicinePower]

So it's OK to ask me, as a husband and father, to (at that time) leave my wife and children behind, but not OK to ask the same of a female student?  Please tell me that's NOT what you meant to imply.

 

Family is absolutely important, which is why *I* chose PA school over med school: not that I would be able to always see my kids every day of PA school, but that the intense grind and associated separation would be chronologically *shorter* than if I were to have done MD/DO school and then a residency.  Again, I signed up knowing that I could be sent all over the country, asked that I be able to keep my family with me as much as possible, and I was very pleased with what my school was able to work out for me.

In my particular program there are no men with children, only women. As a rule, however, programs must not be allowed or have an expectation to separate families due to clinicals regardless of the student being a mother or a father.