DrCats Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So I got into a heated discussion with someone recently about this scenario (well something about this scenario) and I wanted to get some feedback... Scenario: You are head of admissions for a great PA school, you have one spot and two students to choose from (you MUST pick Student 1 or Student 2), keep in mind, you haven't met either student, you just have these notes: Student #1: Science and Overall GPA: 2.9 - graduated from Princeton. HCE: 2800 hours as an aide in ICU GRE: 1020, 3.5 Age: 34 Notes from interview: Personable, down to earth, very knowledgeable about healthcare and PA profession, speaks French. "F" in biochemistry, but retook and got a "C". Student #2: Science and Overall GPA: 3.4 - graduated from Ohio State. HCE: 1700 hours as an aide in nursing home GRE: 1200, 4.5 Age: 29 Notes from interview: Personable, down to earth, somewhat knowledgeable about healthcare and PA profession, great sense of humor. Tattoo on arm (was only visible when sleeve was rolled up) Do you know who you would pick? Explain why. Everything else about them is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 11, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 11, 2012 student 1. 2800 hrs of icu time trumps 1700 hrs in a nursing home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpsman2PA Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How good were their letter of recs? Did either have any volunteer time? This would play into my decision, but Student #1 looks good so far. It depends what program these two are applying for :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCats Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Both had great letters of recs. Both volunteered about the same. Its not a specific program, its the program YOU are the head of admissions for... Everything else was equal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpsman2PA Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 student 1. 2800 hrs of icu time trumps 1700 hrs in a nursing home. Well, seeing that 1700 hrs earned an interview, I doubt this said program values HCE. But, since we're head of our own programs, student 1 it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktalon Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I wouldn't even have been able to look at student #1 because he / she doesn't meet the minimum 3.0 requirement and would have been immediately thrown out. EMEDPA and Corpsman2PA, I completely understand your emphasis on quality HCE, and agree that ICU trumps LTCF by a long shot. But do you think that 1.5 years in an ICU is really THAT much better than 11 months in a LTCF, considering the 2.9 GPA, a GRE that barely broke a 1000, and retaking biochem to get a "C". That doesn't really add up to being academically ready for an intense PA program. If we knew something else about this applicant then I might be able to look past all that. With that said, I know plenty of aides that work in an ICU that would 100% NOT succeed in a PA program. All things being equal, ICU is much better experience. But that experience in of itself does not make a good PA student and does not compensate for their recent lack of academic performance. Give me a medic for FOUR years with a 3.0 and good RECENT GPA and I would pick them over the 8 month LTC aide with a 3.4. But I would not put that much stock in somebody JUST because they worked in an ICU verses an LTCF. In this instance, is there other reasoning than just the ICU is better experience than LTCF? I understand your stance on HCE, and I agree with about 90% of it, but I'm just not seeing it in this case. I know, I know... I'm starting an argument on a "just for fun" thread... my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Steve Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I am a sucker for a good sense of humor and they showed that they can be trained. More opportunity to talk to patients in a nursing home and make long term connections. ICU experience is great and they would get the first spot on the waiting list. Student number two please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planteater Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 A 2.9 science GPA doesn't concern any of you? I thought PA school was supposed to be pretty difficult. I wouldn't be impressed with a C on a re-take or that GRE score either. It is one thing if the applicant only had one weakness with good explanation (goofed off years ago and got better or not a great test-taker but can get the job done etc). But, this student seems to have a pattern of poor academics. I am not sure why the nursing home experience is not valued either- there are quite complex patients in nursing homes.....but, I am only a pre-PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCats Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 "I wouldn't even have been able to look at student #1 because he / she doesn't meet the minimum 3.0 requirement and would have been immediately thrown out. " @mktalon: Does the fact they went to Princeton matter at all? - just wondering (BTW - its okay to argue on a just for fun thread - it makes it interesting ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktalon Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 DrCats, no, Princeton only matters to me if they succeeded at Princeton. In addition, the GRE score does not reflect that this person learned any more or develop better critical thinking skills at Princeton than any other student at xyz university. Lastly, if this person retook biochem years later, then it wasn't at Princeton, and still got a C. This tells me that this person not only did not succeed at Princeton, but also did not succeed at other institutions as well. So no, Princeton does not impress me. There were people that had a 4.0 in high school and then failed out of my no-name college. The criteria to get into an Ivy League is based entirely on high school performance, which can translate well to college performance, but not always. In this case it is evident that this persons high school performance did not translate well into college academics, and it has persisted that way into the biochem retake. AND AFTER ALL THIS, Princeton would still have little influence even if said person DID succeed because the difficulty of undergraduate schools is such an impossible thing to compare. I went to a no-name college but comparing my education to those that surround me now as I attend very reputable institutions, I can't help but feel that I received a much better education at my no-name college. Class size may have something to do with it, or the personal nature of the professors and their willingness to mentor, or the perhaps that prestige and funding don't necessarily correlate to better learning. But once you start putting more weight into one institution over another, you have to know how difficult EVERY institution is to form a fair comparison. And then you have to know how difficult each professor is. It would be an endless game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktalon Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 BTW, I like this thread... it IS fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cinntsp Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If we want to talk reality, student #2 is more likely to be accepted based on what you have put forth unless the interview didn't go well. That is not to say student #1 does not have a chance anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoPA Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 There should just be an "agree" button on posts. I'd click it on mktalon's in this case cuz he/she hit it on the head, in my book, both on the original question and about Princeton. Sorry, mktalon, I'm unsure of your gender. :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted January 11, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would ask for a job description. If the ICU aide had higher skills or responsibilities (which I doubt) then I would be more torn However, a C on a retake is no good. Student number 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCats Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 OK - the admissions coordinator forgot to give you this additional information about the two students... Student #1: Went to a small college right out of high school and after 2 semesters dropped out... GPA was a 1.7. They did one year of community college at 29 and then went to Princeton... That biochem class was taken over a summer at Princeton- retook in the fall at Princeton. GPA at community college: 3.91, GPA at Princeton: 3.3. As an ICU aide, assisted in procedures, phlebotomy, ekgs, also is an assistant to Pathologist in autopsies. Student #2: Got a B-/C+ in A&P I/II. Aide at Nursing home, assisted with ADLs, bathing, ambulating patients. Does that change anything about your initial decision? Remember, its YOUR decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Steve Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 yes, it would sway my decision and I'd lean more towards applicant 1 now. However, before a final commitment, I'd grill the admissions coordinator for ALL the application. Personal statements, letters of rec, complete job history, the works. I really don't enjoy being asked to make a decision on a limited number of facts only to be told later "oh by the way..." Now I'm gun shy fearing the next "oh by the way...the xxx candidate did 18 months in County for larceny" or something silly like that. In the first scenario the presentation is given in such a way that allows for assumptions. Silly me for making assumptions. At this point, I'd need to full package to make a decision that I didn't lose sleep over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktalon Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Still no because I would be forced to believe that student #1 had somehow forged the documents that were submitted because there is no WAY he or she would get into Princeton after getting a 1.7 GPA at the first college. Even with a 3.91 at a community college the combined GPA would still only be a 2.8. Student #2 getting a B- and C+ in A&P would be a deal breaker for sure. So, okay I'll play along, assuming everything being legit with student #1, I would then pick student #1 for sure. Then I would fire my admissions coordinator for not giving me all the information that was available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmood Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 After the original information I would have chosen the second student. Proven record of academic success, and nursing homes are an excellent way to learn to build relationships with patients. I'm not swayed by the flash of Princeton and ICU, because I think you need the mettle to take advantage of opportunities like that and see no evidence Student 1 has it. I don't like that you gave more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mktalon Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 yeah, it was more fun with just the original set of info... let's go back to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LT_Oneal_PAC Posted January 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted January 12, 2012 OK - the admissions coordinator forgot to give you this additional information about the two students... Student #1: Went to a small college right out of high school and after 2 semesters dropped out... GPA was a 1.7. They did one year of community college at 29 and then went to Princeton... That biochem class was taken over a summer at Princeton- retook in the fall at Princeton. GPA at community college: 3.91, GPA at Princeton: 3.3. As an ICU aide, assisted in procedures, phlebotomy, ekgs, also is an assistant to Pathologist in autopsies. Student #2: Got a B-/C+ in A&P I/II. Aide at Nursing home, assisted with ADLs, bathing, ambulating patients. Does that change anything about your initial decision? Remember, its YOUR decision. well now you've completely reversed the situation, and I agree I would double check this record. What were the OTHER science grades? Was the chem grade just a fluke? Also, never heard of an aide doing all this in the ICU, and side assisting a pathologist as an ICU job. However for the sake of hypotheticals, I now lean toward student number 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaston Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Student 1. Both scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpsman2PA Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I wouldn't even have been able to look at student #1 because he / she doesn't meet the minimum 3.0 requirement and would have been immediately thrown out. EMEDPA and Corpsman2PA, I completely understand your emphasis on quality HCE, and agree that ICU trumps LTCF by a long shot. But do you think that 1.5 years in an ICU is really THAT much better than 11 months in a LTCF, considering the 2.9 GPA, a GRE that barely broke a 1000, and retaking biochem to get a "C". That doesn't really add up to being academically ready for an intense PA program. No on all accounts...in my book, if I were in charge, I wouldn't choose either to be honest. I think both of their HCE is rather weak. But Student 1 wins because I have a 4,000 hr minimum for HCE at my make believe school and student 1 comes the closest to that. Also, Student 1 is more knowledgeable on the profession and healthcare issues, which I like and think is very important. And they also speak french. Can't go wrong with a foreign language...that opens up another demographic that they can reach as a PA. Its not just about the HCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laifalove Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 GPA at community college: 3.91, GPA at Princeton: 3.3. This is where I'd give consideration to the fact that student 1 went to Princeton. Because this student is me. And my friend. I actually have exactly a 3.3 from a competitive university (granted it's not Ivy League, but it's a large research institution), and a high GPA at a community college right now where I'm redoing like half of my pre-reqs. Not gonna lie though, having personally been in a CNA kind of position, student 2 sounds pretty good as well, you learn how to talk with patients better as a CNA. But a B-/C+ in A&P isn't that great either, to me A&P is more important than biochemistry, especially since some schools don't even require biochemistry. At the same time, student 1 is much more prepared on what the PA profession is than student 2, isn't that something a lot of adcoms care about? I wouldn't know who to pick, maybe neither. Just kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 The one that would meet the mission of the program. There isn't enough information to determine that. Based on what has been given I would lean toward the CNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrCats Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 I know the GPA calculation for Student #1 is wrong, this is a just for fun scenario... I just want to see the arguments for/against these stats and why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.