andersenpa Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Re: specialties and bankers hrs- I have seen these jobs, in Surgery. They are not great. Floor/scut work...yes, you can clock in-clock out, but you are doing intern level work. Again, my experience only, but in general the jobs (in surgery) that pay more have more demanding hrs or have less flexible schedules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 There ARE positions that have those hrs. in Derm, Occmed, Aesthetics/Plastics, and FP/Peds, Inpatient medicine, Minute Clinic/Doc in a Box. I've heard that in these practices with "Bankers Hours'"... the PAs/NPs are treated just like the rest of the "ancillary staff" they employ... (minimal if any input and no say in clinical issues that affect the way/how/where/when you practice) As has been said.... If you wanna be treated and paid like a rock-star... ya gotta live like one.... The Docs put in 11 yrs (got paid $40k/yr for 90hr weeks for 2-3 yrs) and is now working 60 hrs weeks for ~ $150k in FP/Peds/IM. Now some of us expect him to pay us $80-90k plus full bennies (~ $110k "employee burden") for 39.999hrs per week to do less than he did in residency for $40k. To many of our potential employers, this just doesn't make sense... Sure you should eventually get to the point where what you "bill" will cover your salary, overhead and expenses, but it will take a couple of yrs to get there. Just keep in mind that what you "bill" isn't even close to what is collected. What Doc is going to compensate you like you wanna be compensated without you "putting some skin in the game"....?? Many of us in specialty medicine are hired to do the things that the doc doesn't want to do or the things that aren't as high speed and sexy. Things like weekend clinic, 1st call, pelvics, drunks/addicts, Admissions, Discharges, Early morning rounds and various other "scut" that junior interns/residents used to do for them during their last yrs of training. I.e. Surgeons usually want to spend as much of their time as they can in the OR. Thats where they make the most, and thats what they do, Surgery. They usually don't like to do too much office/pre-op/post-op stuff... so they hire PAs for that. At my current "On-Call" job... My SP doesn't want to be "bothered" with practicing Internal medicine, so she and the other 3 docs concentrate on the psych issues and defer ALL medicine issues to me. The cool part about this is its on-call but I usually only have to go in 4 days a week. It only takes up ~ 2-3 hrs/day including travel... but I get paid for a guaranteed 30hrs/wk @ $50/hr. It seems that docs in FP/Peds aren't gonna have much sympathy for your request for "bankers hrs"... If they do... you will likely NOT be paid/respected much. That said... MCHAD... slow down with telling actual in the trenches PAs that share their experiences here that they should have gone to medical School if they don't like their "learned limitations." Its kinda disrespectful and asinine coming from someone who's ONLY experience with this profession has been SHADOWING -(following someone around and watching them work)... As has been said above... the average PA-C doesn't really experience "the dark side" of this profession until they have worked in it for a while. So NO "they don't know what they are getting into. No amount of prior research is gonna prepare you for the ****ty things that happen in inter-office practice politics. You can shadow and question prior to PA school all you want, but until you are on the carpet being offered a crappy schedule, for crappy pay and bennies, without a bonus, with uncompensated call time, by the practice manager (not even a Doc and likely a spouse), you won't get it/understand. You will be back here when you are moved out of your office for the new MD/DO, given all of the holiday call uncompensated, and told you have to see more patients per hr, but you are losing your MA... oh and there won't be any x-mas bonuses this yr. So what sounds like repeated "negativity" to a neophyte... May actually be things that you will come to know and resent as a experienced practicing clinician. Some of us here like to "keep it real"... and avoid "blowing smoke up the collective A$$es" of those that read here with hopes of becoming a PA-C. Just a few thoughts... Contrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHAD Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I meant no disrespect with my previous comments, but I am getting kind of tired of only hearing negative on this forum as of late...Keep it real, we want you to, but we also want to know the good of the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 5, 2010 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2010 I meant no disrespect with my previous comments, but I am getting kind of tired of only hearing negative on this forum as of late...Keep it real, we want you to, but we also want to know the good of the profession. ok, here's some pa happiness: after you have a bit of experience it is quite easy to get per diem jobs where you pick all the parameters; days and hours worked, location, and to some extent , salary(as in you don't take the job if it doesn't pay what you want). I do about 25% of my work at several different per diem locations: 1 is a rural/coastal emergency dept. I take my family out to the coast one weekend/mo for 4 days and work 2. great scope of practice, docs love having the extra help. great cases. the 2 days of work more than pays for 4 nice days of semivacation with a few hundred bucks left over. another per diem job is an old community hospital I used to work at full time as the chief pa. they have changed their utilization of pa's from full scope of practice to basically fast track only(which is why I left) but the salary has not changed. not a lot of intellectual stimulation but it's 5 minutes from home, I can work anytime I want as they are chronically short staffed, I am scheduled see 2 fast track pts/hr and the pay is outrageous(senior em pa's make more than fp docs there). not a lot of fun but a quick way to make some big bucks to save up for something. my last per diem job is night shifts at the local level 1 trauma ctr. the docs there LOVE pa's and go out of their way to find us and pull us into great cases and to do cool procedures. pay is better than avg, volume isn't bad. I took this job for the trauma exposure as pa's and docs on night shift alternate charts from a single chart rack. as a seasoned pa you will never be out of work. I could work every day of the month if I wanted to with the local availability of jobs and shifts. one of the pa's in my group recently incurred some serious debt and decided to work 24+ days/mo to pay it off. he makes>200k/yr doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHAD Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Thanks EMEDPA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lov2xlr8 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 ok, here's some pa happiness:after you have a bit of experience it is quite easy to get per diem jobs where you pick all the parameters; days and hours worked, location, and to some extent , salary(as in you don't take the job if it doesn't pay what you want). I do about 25% of my work at several different per diem locations: 1 is a rural/coastal emergency dept. I take my family out to the coast one weekend/mo for 4 days and work 2. great scope of practice, docs love having the extra help. great cases. the 2 days of work more than pays for 4 nice days of semivacation with a few hundred bucks left over. another per diem job is an old community hospital I used to work at full time as the chief pa. they have changed their utilization of pa's from full scope of practice to basically fast track only(which is why I left) but the salary has not changed. not a lot of intellectual stimulation but it's 5 minutes from home, I can work anytime I want as they are chronically short staffed, I am scheduled see 2 fast track pts/hr and the pay is outrageous(senior em pa's make more than fp docs there). not a lot of fun but a quick way to make some big bucks to save up for something. my last per diem job is night shifts at the local level 1 trauma ctr. the docs there LOVE pa's and go out of their way to find us and pull us into great cases and to do cool procedures. pay is better than avg, volume isn't bad. I took this job for the trauma exposure as pa's and docs on night shift alternate charts from a single chart rack. as a seasoned pa you will never be out of work. I could work every day of the month if I wanted to with the local availability of jobs and shifts. one of the pa's in my group recently incurred some serious debt and decided to work 24+ days/mo to pay it off. he makes>200k/yr doing so. Awesome! I agree, there is a lot of negativity on the forum, and I can see why it is directed, but it is nice for us future PAs to see the benefits of a successful career. Challenges me to work my way up. Thanks E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltran819 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Everyone! I've been reading so many different forums and sub-forums, I'm a little confused as to where I've read what! So I was wondering, if anyone had any answers on the top of their mind.. maybe you can help me out. I'm PA driven. I've made my committment and am praying for the chance to prove that I can tough out the 2 years as well as anyone can. And one of my driving factors is the benefit of flexibility within the PA profession.. being able to switch freely between specialities and etc.. But is MD really as inflexible as it seems? Sure, ER docs and Family Medicine Docs will be able to practice a range of medicine because they will see a lot. But are they limited if they want to switch out? say to Peds or OB or etc? Maybe you MD turn PA's can answer this one for me. I have never considered MD so don't know much about the challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 5, 2010 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2010 But is MD really as inflexible as it seems? Sure, ER docs and Family Medicine Docs will be able to practice a range of medicine because they will see a lot. But are they limited if they want to switch out? say to Peds or OB or etc? family medicine has a lot of flexibility to see most types of pts but an fp doc could not switch to surgery without doing another residency. outside of family medicine most docs are locked into their career choice forever with the exception of maybe doing some urgent care work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellybb0104 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 the m-f 9-5 thing is available in outpt primary care but I don't know any specialty pa's who work out of the hospital with a schedule like this.em/trauma= nights/weekends/holidays surgery/ortho = same as em + call most hospitalists do 7 on/7 off there are outpt specialty clinic jobs with the m-f 9-5 thing but most don't pay well unfortunately. In your opinion, what is considered "not so good pay"? I'm asking becuase just yesterday, I introduced a fellow PA applicant to the Civilian Department of Defense Employment website (CPOL) and showed him that there are civvy PA positions available on military posts, warrior transition centers, etc. Most of them were FM, few were ED postitions, GS-12 pay starting at $67k. He told me I was CRAZY for investigating positions where the pay was mediocore. I didn't believe this to be so because I do miss being a soldier sometimes and felt this was a good way to be involved with soldiers again and possibly follow my Army husband. Am I disillusioned about what to expect for pay as a new PA? I start PA school this summer, so at this time, earning potential is not a huge issue for me. Perhaps that will change as time goes on.:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_me Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I think in my area most PAs start around 70-75k (new grads) in some areas/states/cities 67k would be ok for a new grad starting in FP but laughable in many specialty areas Looking around at jobs it seems that as a PA many make around 1/2 the MDs salary according to the specialty---usually if you have experience (not fresh out of school) but this was me looking around FL In your opinion, what is considered "not so good pay"? I'm asking becuase just yesterday, I introduced a fellow PA applicant to the Civilian Department of Defense Employment website (CPOL) and showed him that there are civvy PA positions available on military posts, warrior transition centers, etc. Most of them were GS-12 with pay starting at $67k. He told me I was CRAZY for investigating positions where the pay was mediocore. I didn't believe this to be so because I do miss being a soldier sometimes and felt this was a good way to be involved with soldiers again and possibly follow my Army husband. Am I disillusioned about what to expect for pay as a new PA? I start PA school this summer, so at this time, earning potential is not a huge issue for me. Perhaps that will change as time goes on.:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 8medical Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 In your opinion, what is considered "not so good pay"? I'm asking becuase just yesterday, I introduced a fellow PA applicant to the Civilian Department of Defense Employment website (CPOL) and showed him that there are civvy PA positions available on military posts, warrior transition centers, etc. Most of them were FM, few were ED postitions, GS-12 pay starting at $67k. He told me I was CRAZY for investigating positions where the pay was mediocore. I didn't believe this to be so because I do miss being a soldier sometimes and felt this was a good way to be involved with soldiers again and possibly follow my Army husband. Am I disillusioned about what to expect for pay as a new PA? I start PA school this summer, so at this time, earning potential is not a huge issue for me. Perhaps that will change as time goes on.:rolleyes: Kellybb.. The rate on CPOL are normally ranges. This does not include bonuses and other incentives. In addition, the GS-12 position include certain steps. So, if you are hired with at a GS-12- step 4 vs step 1 these are different pay scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellybb0104 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Kellybb.. The rate on CPOL are normally ranges. This does not include bonuses and other incentives. In addition, the GS-12 position include certain steps. So, if you are hired with at a GS-12- step 4 vs step 1 these are different pay scale. I know. The GS (1-15) ranges are from Step 1-10. I used to be a GS-5 Step 1 Medical Support Assistant in Bad Aibling Germany. I loved my job. I landed it less than 60 days of separating from the Army. However, I didn't opt for any bennies because hubby's a soldier and I already had nice entitlements. At least you know that promotions and pay raises are immenent in the GS system. I recently read that there is a $2000 bonus for PAs if they are picked up-under certain circumstances I'm sure. Anywho, I just wanted t know what the concensus felt about what they'd expect (as opposed to what I'm content with) as far as pay was concerned. I was on the site again today and PA positions at "various" locations were posted, ie. Korea, Italy, Germany, Alaska, Hawaii, New York, etc. for salaries starting at $50,000, the GS levels were not disclosed. The person that I am, I wouldn't mind applying for one of those positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradtPA Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Anywho, I just wanted t know what the concensus felt about what they'd expect (as opposed to what I'm content with) as far as pay was concerned. I think when it comes to the private sector, you should expect to make at least the average for your location, as determined by a salary profile such as those you can buy from the AAPA. To give you an idea for general internal medicine, the average salary for those under 3 years experience is $75,000 in the state of NC. For GS jobs, its a bit different. Liberal holidays combined with frequent down days almost guarantee at least a four day weekend a month. Lots of other bennies as well, including a strong top rated pension fund and the flexibility to move from base to base without a loss of seniority more than make up for the pay scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 6, 2010 Moderator Share Posted January 6, 2010 In your opinion, what is considered "not so good pay"? .:rolleyes: I think every new grad in every specialty is worth at least 75k to start. many specialty positions start a lot higher. a friend of mine just landed 92k+ full bennies to do 14 twelve hr em shifts/mo. right out of school. surgery right out of school should pay at least 80k. that's what they were paying for good surgical jobs 15 yrs ago..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltran819 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Sorry, another "lack of MD knowledge" question to throw at the forum.. I've posted this question on another thread but haven't received any enlightenment.. so I thought I'd try here! I was wondering.. PA's can provide quality patient care that is comparable to any physician, but IS it at a lesser cost to the patient? or does it depend on individual practices? I don't mean to start the "PA care is less than MD care and so should be charged less" idea that have been brought up in other threads, but I do wonder what it's like in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lov2xlr8 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 a friend of mine just landed 92k+ full bennies to do 14 twelve hr em shifts/mo. right out of school. Where is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 7, 2010 Moderator Share Posted January 7, 2010 Where is this? NORTHERN CA(NOT BAY AREA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LESH Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 NORTHERN CA(NOT BAY AREA). I've seen and had graduates make similar salaries in the Central Valley of Cali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXPA23 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I've seen and had graduates make similar salaries in the Central Valley of Cali. Houston area as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 MCHAD... "learned limitations." As has been said above... the average PA-C doesn't really experience "the dark side" of this profession until they have worked in it for a while. So NO "they don't know what they are getting into. No amount of prior research is gonna prepare you for the $hitty things that happen in inter-office practice politics. You can shadow and question prior to PA school all you want, but until you are on the carpet being offered a crappy schedule, for crappy pay and bennies, without a bonus, with uncompensated call time, given all of the holiday call uncompensated, and told you have to see more patients per hr,you won't get it/understand. So what sounds like repeated "negativity" to a neophyte... May actually be things that you will come to know and resent as a experienced practicing clinician. Some of us here like to "keep it real"... and avoid "blowing smoke up the collective A$$es" of those that read here with hopes of becoming a PA-C. Just a few thoughts... Contrarian See this Post as an example.... This isn't a rare occurrence for PAs either... but it is RARE that they would even consider doing this to a MD/DO unless they really were trying to buy him/her out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellybb0104 Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 I've seen and had graduates make similar salaries in the Central Valley of Cali. Perhaps I have been underestimating my earning potential in the civilian sector.:eek: Thank you guys for your opinions, facts, and input. Always helpful.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underserved Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 This is great. Thank you for sharing. I saved this site. Oh BTW, here are medical missions who are looking for PA's: http://www.medicalmissions.org/physician-assistant/ Google is your friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underserved Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Can we all just get along? Being a PA beats working most jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Being a PA is GREAT... most days... as in 95% of the time you are practicing. Its the 5% that you have to watch out for... cause it leaves a bad taste in your mouth that you can't get rid of regardless of how many times you spit...;) Being a PA beats working most jobs. Really...??? "most jobs"...???:confused: Even commercial jet pilot...zoo keeper...Cruise ship Captain...Astronaut..?? I bet Samantha Brown, Anthony Bourdain, Rick Steves and Andrew Zimmern would beg to differ... Contrarian I get what ya mean but "absolutes" don't work here... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted January 9, 2010 Moderator Share Posted January 9, 2010 [quote name=Contrarian;234864 Really...??? "most jobs"...???:confused: Even commercial jet pilot...zoo keeper...Cruise ship Captain...Astronaut..?? I bet Samantha Brown' date=' Anthony Bourdain, Rick Steves and Andrew Zimmern would beg to differ... Contrarian [/quote] SCUBA INSTRUCTOR IN THE CARRIBEAN, ADVENTURE TOUR LEADER, MTN GUIDE IS ASIA, PHOTO JOURNALIST FOR NATL. GEOGRAPHIC, RESTAURANT CRITIC, MOVIE OR TV STAR, PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE, BILL GATES, WARREN BUFFET, STATE SENATOR/CONGRESSMAN, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, DIRECTOR OF THE FBI OR CIA, ETC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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